"24 hard facts about 9/11 that cannot be debunked"

[dafydd]

Twinstead “Isn't it precious you concentrate on frustrated snide remarks--what else can one do when faced with this kind of crap--instead of the thoughtful and time-consuming responses to your arguments that fill this thread?”

Twinstead thanks for the advice and chastising.
That is not a reasoned appraisal from you T.
I posted....DGM gives me a one liner....Mark gets up me for an acronym....Jay gives me two lines that include “utterly simplistic” and “Aaaaahahahahahahaha,” I don’t care how you respond to such overtures, I respond how I like.

The only responses to the premise I poised by presenting the video’s and commentary came from JSanderO and I have to digest what he says....unlike the lot I named and your manuscript of four lines....thanks for replying though.

Gloin wouldn't be proud of you.

 

[JSanderO]

JSanderO” There are many examples/lessons of mechanics (physics) and chemistry to take from the WTC events. This sort of analysis is beyond the expertise and comprehension of Joe Average. Joe needs to understand the world on his level and that's not a scientific education or profession and mostly informed by TV and Hollywood.”

JS I will give you two unfathomable examples from the public record that Joe can comprehend that should have you asking why such acceptance of the official “story” when there was no investigation whatsoever.
Why did the National Institute of Standards and Technology not test for explosive compound residue in steel samples, only noting that similar compounds would have been present during construction of the towers. This seemed like an odd call, almost negligence given compounds degrade.
Then in 2006 NIST were given smples of dust (supposedly from the WTC) that had thermite compound residue, and they quite rightly rejected them as their pedigree was not assured. NIST was immediately petitioned to conduct its own studies using its own known "chain of custody" dust samples, but NIST refused.

The publics scrutineers did not do their job....why...they do more at a local homicide.

Just to end on a bright note as you did...did you know acolytes are mostly trapped by and coming from a confirmation bias position. And they resist any explanation which crashes their beliefs.

Travis thanks for your efforts, good post.

My hunch for why they didn't look for explosive residue is as follows:

There was no steel or enough of it seen/recovered which looked suspiciously like it was the victim of *foul play*. In all the photos I saw of the fallen steel debris none of it looks like it was exploded apart or cut through with some sort of cutting device. It all seems to be mechanically broken.

YES there was some steel with eutectic corrosion. This MAY have been a post collapse process as the pile stewed and burned for months.

Having said this I am sure that they have dust samples and could perform the tests... and if they could be conclusive... why not?

The claim of thermite has not only been disputed or debunked depending on who you believe... but there is no mechanism to explain how painted steel would caused it to come apart as we saw... or for that matter explain the so called anomalies that truthers associate with CD.

Unprotected steel does not fare well in unfought fires.

 

[DGM]

DGM, thanks for your one line tiger.
“ The FDNY would be the only ones that would pull their fire fighting efforts. I don't know what you're talking about.”

That leaves me as my verbiage left you, unsure of what you are talking about.

Go with that if it makes you feel better.

About your statement “PANYNJ hold the purse strings for most of the insurance money.”
I and Larry Silverstein were under the impression that whoever held the lease on the structures, insured the structures....it’s in his lease...well he and his partner Frank Lowie’s lease. What the port authority has to do with the question of Silverstein’s insurance is beyond me.

Obviously it is beyond you. You don't own the property you lease. I can't make it any easier for you. If you want, call a bank or insurance company and ask.

Silverstein is well aware of his responsibility. If he wasn't he wouldn't have signed the 2006 agreement. You do know the agreement I'm talking about, right?

 

[sonofgloin]

BStrong>> I've posted it in other threads, but it's just as applicable to the 9/11 CT's - many people have a world view formed by Hollywood popular fiction, not by reality,<<

BS....you are correct but your good self and JS omitted to mention the accessibility of YouTube footage, it perhaps more than any other media has a load to answer for as it is portrayed as nonfiction. Simple souls have to be told they are watching a movie.
In saying that I still believe 911 stinks.

Twinstead>> Bias position? The very definition of the "pot calling the kettle black"<<
T as I said to BS, 911 stinks and it will until I am convinced otherwise.
As an example....why did the secret service leave the president sitting at the school after the second strike given his presence there was on the public calendar, that aint in the rule book.

Mark I read all you wrote. Re the fire fighters believing the company line....there is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr7n-uZ6bhc
Re your last comment about being done to death....ok

Jay>> That is why I laugh at you.<<
Who cares,........it’s only you.

Dafydd>> Gloin wouldn't be proud of you.<<
Gloin was good at fighting, not thinking.

JS>> Unprotected steel does not fare well in unfought fires.<<
Building 7 was the first and last steel framed high rise to fall to the basement, due to a fire.
Anyway as Mark said, it has all been said.....

 

[Travis]

Twinstead>> Bias position? The very definition of the "pot calling the kettle black"<<
T as I said to BS, 911 stinks and it will until I am convinced otherwise.
As an example....why did the secret service leave the president sitting at the school after the second strike given his presence there was on the public calendar, that aint in the rule book.

Why would they not? The school was a secure place. Better to keep him in the place you already have secure than to rush him out of there with no clear plan on what to do next.

JS>> Unprotected steel does not fare well in unfought fires.<<
Building 7 was the first and last steel framed high rise to fall to the basement, due to a fire.
Anyway as Mark said, it has all been said.

And it was the first steel framed highrise to have an unfought, out of control fire in it. So would we not expect unusual results from an unusual situation?

 

[dafydd]

Dafydd>> Gloin wouldn't be proud of you.<<
Gloin was good at fighting, not thinking.

You are well named.

 

[dafydd]

T as I said to BS, 911 stinks and it will until I am convinced otherwise.
As an example....why did the secret service leave the president sitting at the school after the second strike given his presence there was on the public calendar, that aint in the rule book.

What should have happened? The president and the secret service running around like headless chickens? Could you quote the apposite rule from the rule book?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Regarding Secret Service behaviour which "ain't in the rule book", am I wrong to imagine the US Secret Service are not so foolish as actually to publish their "rulebook" for protecting the president and that this is no more than an expression of personal incredulity?

 

[Mark F]

Mark I read all you wrote. Re the fire fighters believing the company line....there is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr7n-uZ6bhc
Re your last comment about being done to death....ok

Wow, after all the points I brought up, after all the effort I put into that your sole retort is an out-of-context Youtube video that has nothing to do with building 7? Could you be any more lazy than that? Could you fail any more completely to miss the point - not just miss it but I suspect deliberately avoid it?

And what about your video link which doesn't really address any of my points? I should ignore your obvious attempt to change the subject but this is an important lesson in how Truther Youtube videos so frequently get it so wrong.

I would like you to think about this for a moment. If these firefighters being interviewed in your video were in the South Tower lobby AND there were explosions (of whatever kind) in that lobby AND these explosions were powerful enough to bring down a 110-story steel structure AND they in fact did bring down said structure, why are these men still alive?

Nobody made it out of the South Tower.

Isn't that enough right there to cast serious doubt on what I suspect you believe this video proves - that pre-planted bombs in the lobby of the twin towers brought them down? For your belief to be true these men have to be dead. Since they are not dead we have reason to cast serious doubts on your interpretation of events.

If you had done your homework it would have taken you a few minutes to figure out these 3 men were NEVER in the lobby of the South Tower. They were in the lobby of the Marriott Hotel. Thus they were never in a position to witness "explosions in the lobby of the twin towers". What they heard which they described as being "like an explosion" (they are not saying it was an explosion, or "bombs" but that it sounded LIKE an explosion) was the sound of the South Tower collapsing on top of them.

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/...OntoMarriottVista-3WTC--RichardDrewAP-400.jpg

So you still have not met your burden of proof.

You have not established that there was CD.
You have not established that Larry Silverstein admitted to CD.
You have not established that Larry Silverstein had motive to commit CD.
You have not established how/why your villain, Larry Silverstein (the "Evil Jew" so necessary it seems to most modern CT's) would have also pulled off the Pentagon attacks and Flight 93.

If you want to believe 9/11 stinks then have at it. I'm down with that. But you should believe it for the right reasons and not just fall un-critically for any nonsense that supports what you want to be true. If you do that you will never figure out what is actually true.

 

[twinstead]

What should have happened? The president and the secret service running around like headless chickens? Could you quote the apposite rule from the rule book?

It's all in the Chicken Little Addendum of 1997. Where have you been?

 

[tsig]

I've gone ahead and color coded the list.

Red = Outright lies
Blue = Misrepresentations of true things
Green = Truths that are irrelevant


1) Nano Thermite was found in the dust at Ground Zero. Peer reviewed in the Bentham Open Chemical Physics Journal. ‘Niels Harrit’, ‘Thermite Bentham’, “The great thermate debate” Jon Cole, ‘Iron rich spheres’ Steven Jones, ‘Limited Metallurgical Examination (FEMA C-13, Appendix C-6)’. ‘Nano Tubes’

2) 1700+ Engineers and Architects support a real independent 9/11 investigation. Richard Gage, Founder. ‘Explosive Evidence’, ‘Blueprint for Truth’, ‘AE911′, ‘Toronto Hearings’, ‘Kevin Ryan’.

3) The total collapse of WTC 7 in 6.5 seconds at free fall acceleration (NIST admits 2.25 seconds). Larry Silverstein used the term “Pull it”. Steel framed high rise buildings have NEVER totally collapsed from fire or structural damage. Builidng 7 was not hit by a plane. ‘Building 7′, ‘WTC 7′.

4) Dick Cheney was in command of NORAD on 9/11 while running war games. ‘Stand down order’. “Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary?”. Norman Minetta testimony. “Gave order to shootdown Flight 93.”, ‘NORAD Drills’.

5) 6 out of the 10 Commissioners believe the 9/11 Commission report was “Setup to fail” Co-Chairs Hamilton and Kean, “It was a 30 year conspiracy”, “The whitehouse has played cover up”, ‘Max Cleland resigned’, ‘John Farmer’.

6) FBI confiscated 84/85 Videos from the Pentagon. ‘Moussaoui trial’ revealed these videos. Released Pentagon Security Camera (FOIA) does not show a 757 and is clearly Missing a frame. ‘Sheraton Hotel’, “Double tree’, ‘Citgo”.

7) Osama Bin Laden was NOT wanted by the FBI for the 9/11 attacks. “No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.” CIA created, trained and funded “Al Qaeda/Taliban” during the Mujahideen. OBL was a CIA asset named ‘Tim Osman’. OBL Reported dead in Dec 2001 (FOX).

8)100′s of Firefighters and witness testimony to BOMBS/EXPLOSIONS ignored by the 9/11 Commission Report. 9/11 Commission Report bars 503 1st responder eyewitnesses. “Explosions in the lobby and sub levels”, ‘Firefighter explosions’, ‘Barry Jennings’, ‘William Rodriguez’.

9) 100′s of firefighters and witness testimony to MOLTEN METAL ignored by the Commission report. “Like you’re in a foundry”, “NIST’s John Gross denies the existence of Molten Metal”, ‘Swiss Cheese’, “As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running.” Leslie Robertson’.

10) ’5 Dancing Israeli’s’ arrested in ‘Mossad Truck Bombs’ on 9/11 that stated “We were there to document the event.” ‘Urban Moving Systems’ front company, ‘Dominic Suter’. “$498,750 Business loan (June 2001)”. “Officer DeCarlo’, ‘Art Students’, ‘Israeli Spying’.

11) On September 10th, 2001. Rumsfeld reported $2.3 TRILLION missing from the Pentagon. ‘Dov Zakheim’ Pentagon Comptroller. Former VP of ‘Systems Planning Corporation’ (Flight Termination System). Signatore of PNAC document.

12) 220+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials question the official story. ’9/11 Whistleblowers’, ‘Patriots for 9/11′. ‘Robert Bowman’, ‘Sibel Edmonds’, ‘Albert Stubblebine’, ‘Wesley Clark’, ‘Mark Dayton’, ‘Alan Sabrosky’, ‘Cyntha McKinney’, ‘Jesse Ventura’, ‘Kurt Sonnenfeld’. “patriotsquestion911.com”

13) Towers were built to withstand a Boeing jet(s). “I designed it for a 707 to hit it”, Leslie Robertson, WTC structural engineer. “Could probably sustain multiple impacts of jetliners”, “like a pencil puncturing screen netting” Frank De Martini, deceased Manager of WTC Construction & Project Management. “As far as a plane knocking a building over, that would not happen.” Charlie Thornton, Structural Engineer.

14) History of American False Flag attacks. ‘USS Liberty’, ‘Gulf of Tonkin’, ‘Operation Northwoods’, ‘OKC Bombing (Murrah Building)’, ’1993 WTC attacks’. ‘Patrick Clawson’. Project for the New American Century (PNAC) needed “a New Pearl Harbor”, “Rebuilding America’s Defenses”. 9/11 Achieved those goals.

15) BBC correspondent Jane Standley reported the collapse of WTC 7 (Soloman Brothers building) 20 minutes before it happened. CNN/FOX/MSNBC also had early reports. ‘BBC wtc 7′, ‘Jane Standley’, Ashleigh Banfield’.

16) “Flight 93″ debris was spread out over many miles. Cheney admits to giving the order to shootdown 93. “shot down the plane over Pennsylvania” Rumsfeld, “nothing that you could distinguish that a plane had crashed there” ‘Chris Konicki. “Not a drop of blood” Coroner Wallace Miller. “there was no plane.” Mayor Ernie Stull.

17) Bush hesitated for 441 days before starting the 911 Commission. ‘Jersey Girls’. ‘Phil Zelikow’ already wrote the outline before the commission began. Steel shipped over seas. Obstruction of justice. JFK and Pearl Harbor commissions were started within 7 days.

18) The 911 commission was given extremely limited funds. $15 million was given to investigate 9/11. (Over $60 Million was spent investigating Clintons’ affairs with Monica).

19) Bush said he watched the first plane crash into the North tower on TV before entering the classroom. “The TV was obviously on.” Was informed about the second impact while reading ‘My Pet Goat’ to the children. Remained for at least 8 more minutes while America was under “attack”.

20) The PATRIOT ACT was written before 9/11. Signed into law October 26th, 2001.

21) Marvin Bush was director of Stratasec (Securacom, ‘KuAm’) which was in charge of security of the WTC, United Airlines and Dulles International Airport. All three were breached on 9/11. ICTS was another company that provided security at the airports. ‘Wirt Walker’, ‘Ezra Harel’, ‘ICTS”, ‘WTC power downs’.

22) “Who killed John O’Neil?”. Former FBI task force agent investigating Al Qaeda/Bin Laden. Transferred by Kroll Corporation to head the security just before 9/11. John O’Neil died in the Towers. ‘Jerome Hauer’ ‘Jules Kroll’.

23) Insider trading based upon foreknowledge. ‘Put Options.’ Never identified insiders made millions. ‘United and American Airlines’ ‘Raytheon.’

24) At least 7 of the 19 listed highjackers are still alive (BBC). No video footage of 19 highjackers or passengers boarding the 4 planes. Pilots of the 4 planes never squawked the highjacking code. ‘Alive highjackers’, ‘ACARS’, ‘Pilots for 9/11 Truth’.

Twinstead “Isn't it precious you concentrate on frustrated snide remarks--what else can one do when faced with this kind of crap--instead of the thoughtful and time-consuming responses to your arguments that fill this thread?”

Twinstead thanks for the advice and chastising.
That is not a reasoned appraisal from you T.
I posted....DGM gives me a one liner....Mark gets up me for an acronym....Jay gives me two lines that include “utterly simplistic” and “Aaaaahahahahahahaha,” I don’t care how you respond to such overtures, I respond how I like.

The only responses to the premise I poised by presenting the video’s and commentary came from JSanderO and I have to digest what he says....unlike the lot I named and your manuscript of four lines....thanks for replying though.

Reposted

 

[carlitos]

BStrong>>

Twinstead>>

Mark

Jay>>

Dafydd

JS>>

Please consider using the quote / multiquote function.

How to use the multiquote function is at the bottom of this page.

 

[BStrong]

BStrong>> I've posted it in other threads, but it's just as applicable to the 9/11 CT's - many people have a world view formed by Hollywood popular fiction, not by reality,<<

BS....you are correct but your good self and JS omitted to mention the accessibility of YouTube footage, it perhaps more than any other media has a load to answer for as it is portrayed as nonfiction. Simple souls have to be told they are watching a movie.
In saying that I still believe 911 stinks.

Twinstead>> Bias position? The very definition of the "pot calling the kettle black"<<
T as I said to BS, 911 stinks and it will until I am convinced otherwise.
As an example....why did the secret service leave the president sitting at the school after the second strike given his presence there was on the public calendar, that aint in the rule book.

Mark I read all you wrote. Re the fire fighters believing the company line....there is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr7n-uZ6bhc
Re your last comment about being done to death....ok

Jay>> That is why I laugh at you.<<
Who cares,........it’s only you.

Dafydd>> Gloin wouldn't be proud of you.<<
Gloin was good at fighting, not thinking.

JS>> Unprotected steel does not fare well in unfought fires.<<
Building 7 was the first and last steel framed high rise to fall to the basement, due to a fire.
Anyway as Mark said, it has all been said.....

First bolded: film footage of the aircraft strikes, resultant structural damage and subsequent fires that led to structural failure are there for all to see, and in the words of the late, great Daniel Patrick Moynihan, "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts."

You are free to believe whatever the hell you want about 9/11, that doesn't mean that your beliefs take precedence over the laws of physics, nor do your beliefs take precedence over the established facts.

Second bolded:

What "rule book" are you getting on about?

The Secret Service did exactly what they are expected to in a situation of national emergency with no known immediate threat to POTUS - secure him, the area and then evacuate to a controlled safe area.

What exactly does your training and experience in the field leads you to conclude that the Service acted outside SOP?

 

[dafydd]

Regarding Secret Service behaviour which "ain't in the rule book", am I wrong to imagine the US Secret Service are not so foolish as actually to publish their "rulebook" for protecting the president and that this is no more than an expression of personal incredulity?

Of course. He has never seen this 'rule book'. I noticed that he has not told me how the president should have acted.

 

[jaydeehess]

Jay>> That is why I laugh at you.<<
Who cares,........it’s only you.

Wrong again.

JS>> Unprotected steel does not fare well in unfought fires.<<
Building 7 was the first and last steel framed high rise to fall to the basement, due to a fire.
Anyway as Mark said, it has all been said.....

Actually that was also a main point I made., that it has ALL been discussed here and with truther posters much better at constructing an arguement than you are.
Building 7 was framed in an unconventional fashion. Building 7 was in large part, constructed over an existing lower structure. Building 7 suffered major damage to it SW face prior to fires developing. When you ignore these and other salient facts you are simply displaying your religious adherence to a predetermined assumption.

I do note that for all your complaint about one liners, you now seem to be vying for champ of the one liner response.

Like I said perhaps I should pity, rather than laugh at, you.

 

[jaydeehess]

Oy vey!, now its the 'Secret Service should have run screaming from the school' meme!
Of the non-technical truther memes this ranks as one of the stupidist.
The two attacks were those involving large aircraft flying into massive and easily identified office buildings in NYC.
The president was in a low rise school in a residential area hundreds of miles from NYC. If he were a target it would be highly unlikely that there would be an attempt to have pilots try to locate such a small target from the air. If he were being targeted on the ground then he is much safer in the building where potential snipiers cannot see him. If he were rushed off to AF1 he would now be in a large well marked aircraft sitting on the tarmac away from other planes, a much easier target to see from the air and at a time when all aircraft were being instructed to land asap. If targeted by ground attack, once again it would be less safe to be in a vehicle loaded with thousands of gallons of fuel and sitting out in the open. Not to mention the exposure while transporting between school and AF1.

It is SOP that when the POTUS is in a direct threat environment that the Secret Service rush him out of that location. Thus it was simply common sense to wait in place, set up extra security along the route to AF1 and at the airport and then leave the school. The truther meme in this case makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and those who expound on it simply demonstrate their lack of logical thought and reasoning.

 

[DGM]

sonofgloin:

What no rebuttal on the insurance/lease deal? Can I assume you read the "06" agreement and now retract what you said about the insurance money?

PANYNJ really does hold all the purse strings.

 

[carlitos]

The president was in a low rise school in a residential area hundreds of miles from NYC.

Around 1300 miles.

 

[Spanx]

Around 1300 miles.

But this is evidence that Bush distanced himself from the attacks so that no one would suspect him.

 

[jaydeehess]

But this is evidence that Bush distanced himself from the attacks so that no one would suspect him.

Dastardly brilliant are these neo-cons. Rumsfeld made sure he was actually in a building that was attacked which just goes to show he knew exactly which offices would be hit. G W Bush makes sure he is 1300 miles away (thx carlitos) which just shows he knew exactly what office structure in NYC was going to be hit right?