• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Radical New Thesis on Human and Solar System Origins

icebear

Muse
Joined
Sep 1, 2013
Messages
524
This one is not sci-rfi, in fact it's academically robust, but the authors claim to have created a century's worth of work for scifi and romance novel writers.


Consider the axis tilts of planets in our system. If our system had formed from a swirling disk of solar material as textbooks claim, all axial tilts should be approximately the same, that is, all near zero with all axes of the planets roughly perpendicular to the plane of orbit. The sun, Jupiter, and mercury do in fact show that. Uranus and Venus are odd cases out with their own explanations, but Neptune, Saturn, Mars, and Earth all have axis tilts of 23.4 - 27 degrees.

image010_zpsfde7dcc0.png


The explanation which suggests itself is as follows: Our sun, Jupiter, and Mercury, with their axes roughly perpendicular to the plane of the system, form one part of the ancient system; Uranus and Venus are odd cases with their own separate explanations; Neptune, Saturn, Mars, and Earth, with their spin axes roughly 26° to the plane of the system, comprise what once was a separate system, which must have been captured by our present sun as a group.

The normal reaction is to assume that this occurred hundreds of millions of years ago. Ancient literature says it occurred a few thousand years ago. Primitive people seeking to devise an astral religion today would end up worshiping the sun and moon, but the two chieftain gods of all antique religions were Jupiter and Saturn. Plato consistently refers to antediluvians as "Nurslings of Kronos(Saturn); the main religious festival in ancient Rome was "Saturnalia", our Sabbath is still called "Saturday". Hesiod and Ovid claim there was a golden age when Saturn/Kronos was "King of Heaven", followed by the great flood, then a brief "Silver Age" when Jupiter/Zeus was "King of Heaven", followed by the Trojan war and our present "Iron Age". In the same language, our sun is the "King of Heaven" now.

To make a long story exceedingly short, our solar system was originally in two parts: A bright part consisting of our sun, Mercury, Jupiter and its moons, and probably whatever the asteroid belt used to be; and a dark part consisting of Neptune, Saturn, Mars, and Earth. When the dark part finally flew into the Sun's orbital plane at a 26-degree angle from the South, the individual bodies peeled off and began to orbit the sun separately as they do now, but kept the ~26-d4egree angle. The How/Why of all that involves cosmic Birkeland currents and Herbig/Haro object strings.

A rocky planet (Mars, Earth) orbitting a brown dwarf star (Saturn) would do so inside the heliosphere/plasma sheath of the dark star. Life would be warm enough but the middle part of the light spectrum would be pretty much missing:

image015_zps7f29282e.jpg


and you'd be living in a deep purple sort of a world:

http://saturndeathcult.com/the-sturn-death-cult-part-1/a-timeless-age-in-a-purple-haze/

Creatures of such a world (dinosaurs, hominids) would have huge eyes, hence the huge dinosaur and Neanderthal eye sockets:

n5.gif

Image courtesy www.themandus.org

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images...inosaurspan/19obdinosaurspan-articleLarge.jpg


Edited by LashL: 
Changed hotlinked image to regular link. Please see Rule 5.



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/19/science/19obdinosaurs.html?_r=0

Humans with the smallest relative eye size of higher animals could not plausibly come from such an environment. For the rest of the tale including the question of an original home for modern humans within our solar system:

http://www.cosmosincollision.com
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So Neanderthals are native to this planet, but we're not? I wonder why our DNA is so similar, then. That's one hell of a coincidence.
 
I thought it was generally accepted that the likeliest explanation of the various axial tilts was collisions with the larger bits of debris that were flying around the solar system during its formation.
 
This one is not sci-rfi, in fact it's academically robust
Not being sci-rfi doesn't imply it isn't science-fiction.

And you're right that it's "academically robust": It was published in The Martian Journal of Amazing Cosmology, vol. 128642, p. 0 (July 1305). I know, I have a copy of the paper. Or not ;)
 
If the sun captured planets from another star then I would expect that the orbits of the planets to be in different plains. No I suggest the idea in the OP is a complex idea where a simpler one exists.
 
So Neanderthals are native to this planet, but we're not? I wonder why our DNA is so similar, then. That's one hell of a coincidence.

I think he's saying that modern humans evolved in the new, brighter conditions. Which then clashes with the "several thousand years ago" part. Methinks this construction grinds a little.

ETA: Eh, from the blurb...
Why were humans seemingly so ill adapted for this primordial Age of Darkness, when the nocturnal flourished and survival of the fittest took on an entirely new and sinister meaning?

But that, as they say, is behind the paywall.
Also, kind of important but absent from the OP - that ancestral dwarf star is supposed to be Saturn itself. Might want to clarify that teaser a bit.
 
Last edited:
This one is not sci-rfi, in fact it's academically robust, but the authors claim to have created a century's worth of work for scifi and romance novel writers.


Consider the axis tilts of planets in our system. If our system had formed from a swirling disk of solar material as textbooks claim, all axial tilts should be approximately the same, that is, all near zero with all axes of the planets roughly perpendicular to the plane of orbit. [/url]

And this assumes that all the planets we see now formed out of that disk in a nice smooth process and that there were no interactions between the bodies that formed in that early period of the solar system that would have altered orbits and axial inclinations. Since we know the opposite to be true the idea fails straight out of the gate.
 
Does anyone seriously think this silliness is worth wasting brainpower on? Velikosvky was more intellectually robust than this nonsense.
 
When the dark part finally flew into the Sun's orbital plane at a 26-degree angle from the South, the individual bodies peeled off and began to orbit the sun separately as they do now, but kept the ~26-d4egree angle.

I now have an image of the earth et al going all Spitfire as they head off towards their respective orbits.

Neeeeeee-oooooow.
 
This one is not sci-rfi

It's not particularly good sci-fi, but not liking a work of fiction doesn't mean it gets kicked out of a genre entirely. Twilight isn't very good either, but like it or not it's still a vampire novel.
 
Consider the axis tilts of planets in our system. If our system had formed from a swirling disk of solar material as textbooks claim, all axial tilts should be approximately the same, that is, all near zero with all axes of the planets roughly perpendicular to the plane of orbit.

Unless, you know, something happened to those planets since then.

Humans with the smallest relative eye size of higher animals could not plausibly come from such an environment.

And yet ALL life on Earth uses the same amino acids, out of several possible combinations, and shows an obvious family resemblance, something that beings from elsewhere wouldn't.
 
So Neanderthals are native to this planet, but we're not? I wonder why our DNA is so similar, then. That's one hell of a coincidence.


More than a coincidence...

The fact of a small number of Neanderthal genes turning up in (some) humans simply indicates an original designer or designers using a few of the same low-level genetic parts for dissimilar projects.

But the fact that our solar system appears to have originally consisted of two disconnected parts and two separate living worlds, each using the same RNA/DNA information scfheme and the creatures of each being as similar as they were, the more advanced creatures all being quadrupeds with two ey4es, two ears, two nostrils, tails, fur or feathers etc, means this: That if all this stuff evolved, then you need to believe that it all evolved exactly the same way TWICE.

In real life of course, information schemes do not just sort of happen...
 
I thought it was generally accepted that the likeliest explanation of the various axial tilts was collisions with the larger bits of debris that were flying around the solar system during its formation.

Well, as I understand it it's this plus normal variations you'd expect from any population. I mean, there's no reason to assume that planets formed homogeneously. Then there are tidal forces to consider, such as that between our moon and Earth itself. And Earth's axis wobbles (one of the Milankovitch Cycles), meaning that you can only say either what the tilt is at a particular time or averaged over a period of time.

It's only crackpots who assume that any variation disproves a theory. Real scientists understand that populations--be the humans, atoms, or planets--have variation. It's the nature of the beast; we live in a messy universe.

Primitive people seeking to devise an astral religion today would end up worshiping the sun and moon, but the two chieftain gods of all antique religions were Jupiter and Saturn.
Actually, not all of them did. In fact, it was really only a small subset that did. Rome and Greece, far as I'm aware (I will of course bow to anyone who can demonstrate that this is in error).

A rocky planet (Mars, Earth) orbitting a brown dwarf star (Saturn) would do so inside the heliosphere/plasma sheath of the dark star.
Brown dwarves aren't that dim.

Creatures of such a world (dinosaurs, hominids) would have huge eyes, hence the huge dinosaur and Neanderthal eye sockets:
Which dinosaurs would those be, hm? Please list specific taxa.

Also, you are confusing SOCKET size with EYE size--a serious error. The eye socket contains a great many muscles and blood vessels; the actual eye can be significantly smaller than the socket. The Neanderthal reconstruction you've provided is rather humours--he's all bug-eyed and hairless and orc-looking. Her'es a more normal reconstruction of a Neanderthal.
 
More than a coincidence...

The fact of a small number of Neanderthal genes turning up in (some) humans simply indicates an original designer or designers using a few of the same low-level genetic parts for dissimilar projects.

Actually, it indicates nothing of the sort. This conclusion doesn't follow at all. Another possibility is that the current theories are actually true.

But the fact that our solar system appears to have originally consisted of two disconnected parts and two separate living worlds, each using the same RNA/DNA information scfheme and the creatures of each being as similar as they were, the more advanced creatures all being quadrupeds with two ey4es, two ears, two nostrils, tails, fur or feathers etc, means this: That if all this stuff evolved, then you need to believe that it all evolved exactly the same way TWICE.

In real life of course, information schemes do not just sort of happen...

Yes, which is why the theory in the OP is bunk.
 
Actually, not all of them did. In fact, it was really only a small subset that did. Rome and Greece, far as I'm aware (I will of course bow to anyone who can demonstrate that this is in error).

I don't think the Romans believed Jupiter was the actual god Jupiter, they just named it after him.
 
Velikosvky was more intellectually robust than this nonsense.

Sadly, yes.

Friendly advice: when one's theories make less sense than Velikovski's theories, it is time to go study a different field.
 
Last edited:
Admittedly, I haven't spent a lot of time trying to understand this, um, interesting story, but does it mention prehistoric plants? If the world became brighter, seems like photosynthesis would be affected a bit.
 
Concerning the genetic similarity between h. sapiens sapiens and h. neanderthalensis
According to preliminary sequences, 99.7% of the base pairs of the modern human and Neanderthal genomes are identical, compared to humans sharing around 98.8% of base pairs with the chimpanzee.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_genome_project

I don't quite understand how beings with 99.7% shared genetic material would evolve on different star systems.

Also, is Saturn a brown dwarf or a planet?
 

Back
Top Bottom