Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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No he did not read his letter. The prosecution read the letter (and deposited the letter as a document).
Then Guede testified about his letter. Confirmed that he was the author, said why and when he wrote it.
But he decided to remain silent about the murder. He never waived his right about this.
I meet a big crowd of people here apparently eager to lecture courts and Supreme Court about the procedure code.

He really is a savvy guy for an under-educated thief.

When he said
" With regards to myself, I have the serenity and the tranquility of the full ataraxia mind of those who in fairness does not boast this unjust suffering but because in fairness I trust the justice system and the good sense of the Italian people and finally I hope that sooner or later the Judges become aware of my complete innocence in what was a horrible murder of a splendid beautiful girl that was Meredith by Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. "​

was he remaining silent about the murder?

What a joke.

Ataraxia (ἀταραξία "tranquility") is a Greek term used by Pyrrho and Epicurus for a lucid state of robust tranquility, characterized by ongoing freedom from distress and worry
 
<snip>Here is a good link from a blogger who has Italy and Italians down pat...enjoy.

http://babelbooth.com/2013/09/30/cooked-pasta-sticks-on-a-grimy-wall/

Interesting article, thanks for the link.

You're welcome.

This is an entertaining and informative essay that may ring true for many:

"As an Italian court begins hearing a fresh appeal against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito‘s first-grade convictions for Meredith Kercher’s murder, Americans might consider cultural aspects that have tainted this case from its sorry, manipulated and blunder-ridden beginnings....."
 
Stefanoni is a molecular biologist and a witness, not a public figure.
You don't have a shread of evidence to allee she is lying; but moreover nothing justifies insults and slurs against anyone, name calling for the sake of it is indefensible (several posters like to indulge in this). The same goes for your numerous xenophobic attacks.

No, she's a public figure, working for the government and deceitfully representing it in proceedings against innocent people. The only thing not public about her is the documents that she's hiding.

I don't launch xenophobic attacks (I thought your preferred term was "racism"?). I make cross-cultural observations.
 
For a little comic relief, this PG poster tries to make the case that no nails no problem

The Bard is correct - I keep my nails short because getting bread dough out from under them is a pain, and believe me, fingernailless women need no help getting undressed. You sort of squeeze the fabric on each side of the clasp with your thumb and index finger and kind of roll where the hook is a bit and it opens right up.​

Raf's argument is that he couldn't have opened the bra without touching the cloth on the bra - hello.

Mary - I gave you credit for the blog link :(
 
I'm not a lawyer and I didn't think you are a nursery school teacher. Never said that.

But I am more used to Italian lawyers/trials than you, and I immediately spot the thing anyway. If you want to question Italian lawyers on these topics: "Popper" on PMF is a lwayer, as well as "Cesare Beccaria" on TJMK while "Comissario Montalbano" is a judicial officer.

And these jackasses post on hate sites? Classy.
 
Absolutely not. He does not waive his right to remain silent at all, no matter what letters he wrote are read in court.

In your posts about this, it sounds as if you are defending Rudy's choice to exercise his right to remain silent. Yet you consider Amanda's choice to exercise her right to remain silent in front of Judge Matteini to be the key piece of evidence proving Amanda's guilt. Double standard?
 
:crowded:
It's normal defence strategy, not a conspiracy theory.

Other posters from your side actually admitted that this should be the purpose of the EDF issue!

The strategy is actually just what is documented. The defence attempted to have Stefanoni's testimony and thecnical report disallowed. This is all what they wanted! They never wanted the EDf files. They wanted to use the topic as a ploy to this attempt.
It's obvious.
I understand a nursery school teacher might not see it. A lawyer spots that immediately.

Yes it is a normal defense theory because everyone knows that when a scientist produces a report and withholds the backup work papers the report has to be excluded. Except Italian judges. They think that the prosecution acting on behalf of the state should be able to have sole posession of the records and produce what they want to, even deceitfully hiding unfavorable documents, and then when the defense requests the backup documents, this request should be denied and the report should be allowed.
 
Machiavelli said:
I'm not a lawyer and I didn't think you are a nursery school teacher. Never said that.

But I am more used to Italian lawyers/trials than you, and I immediately spot the thing anyway. If you want to question Italian lawyers on these topics: "Popper" on PMF is a lwayer, as well as "Cesare Beccaria" on TJMK while "Comissario Montalbano" is a judicial officer.

And these jackasses post on hate sites? Classy.
..... and they offer anonymous, unaccountable opinions.

Does Machiavelli and Andrea Vogt approve of people being judged by anonymous legal opinions?
 
You obviously have nothing to talk about.

Apologies for not being clear. I will then highlight the parts of your messages where you consistently let Mr. Mignini off the hook for misconduct, but often conspriatorialize everything else. In my opinion, it is to whitewash Mr. Mignini.

A side bar to this is the way you say that Ms. Stefanoni is not a public figure. Well, she picked a funny place to testify, at a public trial which leaves a public record.

You consistently let Stefanoni, Napoleoni, Comodi and Mr. Mignini off the hook. I will try to do better next time to actually highlioght in yellow your misstatements.

Also the misstatements from Ms. Vogt, who does exactly the same thing.

Apologies for not being clear.
 
My claim is falsifiable and if it was shown to be wrong I would concede the point.

The factual aspects yes; but the 'fact' that something is unethical is not easily falsifiable.

Please find an example where testimony in the form of a letter was allowed to be read at a trial when the author of the letter was allowed to invoke his right against self incrimination to prevent his cross examination unless an obvious exception to the right to cross examine witnesses applies such as the death of the author.

But you guys are incredible. I don't know cases by memory (and this is not a common law system). What I wonder is why the decisions by Hellmann-Zanetti court and the Supreme Court are not enough for you to understand the procedure point.
Asking about cases about prosecution reading a letter is far beyond what should be necessary to understand: the right of a witness like Rudy Guede to remain silent is expressed by the code, art. 197-bis.

And while we are on the subject of Guede's refusal to submit to a cross examination because it would have tended to incriminate him: Huh? Did the judge interrogate him as to how his testimony might lead to self incrimination? The right not to testify because of the possibility that it might lead to self incrimination is not some sort of rule that can be invoked at the prosecutor's discretion. There is supposed to be a legitimate possibility of self incrimination. How could Guede incriminate himself for a crime that he had been convicted of and was essentially confessing to in the letter read at the trial?

But this is wrong; it seems like you are projecting the US fifth-emendment on the Italian law. But it's not the same. That the right to not answer by a witness in Italian law is not directly related to possibility of self-incrimination like in the US law. I'd say it's very different in some aspects.
I would say the faculty of not answering in Italian procedure law is more 'difficult' for the witness/suspect to have it granted compared to the US, but it is much more powerful and extensive once the required status is achieved by the person.
In Italy, the faculty belongs only to formal suspects, defendants or convicted, while there is no protection from self-incrimination for simple witnesses. And it is very extensive, it includes a right to chose which questions not to answer, a right to lie, a right to make any kind of statements in every moment.

Now, the right to remain silent is not limited to topics which may lead to self-incrimination. It extends up to all topics for which the person cannot be obligated answer: note that we are talkinge about the right to remain silent of a witness, who has however achieved also the status of "defendant" in something connected. But as the status of defendant ends with the verdict, his right to remain silent about facts for which he was convicted is achieved permanently. He will keep the right to remain silent about those facts for his whole life.
He is not protected because of danger of self-incrimination. He is protected because of art. 194-bis paragraph 4. Nobody can obligate him to tell anything different from what he told as a defendant, nor to say anything about the topic for which he was convicted. Never. And forever.
 
Apologies for not being clear. I will then highlight the parts of your messages where you consistently let Mr. Mignini off the hook for misconduct, but often conspriatorialize everything else. In my opinion, it is to whitewash Mr. Mignini.

A side bar to this is the way you say that Ms. Stefanoni is not a public figure. Well, she picked a funny place to testify, at a public trial which leaves a public record.

You consistently let Stefanoni, Napoleoni, Comodi and Mr. Mignini off the hook. I will try to do better next time to actually highlioght in yellow your misstatements.

Also the misstatements from Ms. Vogt, who does exactly the same thing.

Apologies for not being clear.

Still, you have nothing to talk about. You constantly let Sollecito and Knox off the hook, if that's a point. And so? Is that an argument? This is just obvious, due to the fact that we have opposite views.

Basically you are re-stating the fact that we disagree.

But you have nothing to talk about, since you are talking about me, you, Vogt, that we disagree, etc. The generics and the obvious, and about people (me, you, Vogt, etc.) who are not a topic.
It means you have no argument. You disagree on the topic of what Stefanoni did? Then speak about that topic.
 
I've become very despondent that we can't call the knife the "double dna knife" anymore. That was such a catchy name. But now we have three deposits of dna, plus all of those bits of food. Are we sure that they used bleach on this thing? Maybe they bathed it in dna and crud to throw off the Italian super sleuths.
 
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No. It requires a swab which does not require a "distruption of the fabric". They can even swab a small portion of the stain that shows no shoe-print.

Piece of cake.

It is possible to identify a stain as semen stain in situwith a confirmatory test; but the confirmatory test is based on a dark-coloured enzyme which would stain the fabric permanently. The other possible technique is to remove the stain, aka cut away a stained piece of fabric the separate its components in a solvent and analyze them with a microscope.
The DNA analysis obviously would require the removal of fabric, or in alternative use the solvent directly on the item in order to have the semen-cells moisted again so to pick them with a swab. We are talking about old stains. All these techniques would damage the item permanently.
 
I don't think the JREF prohibits all puppets. Just the sock kind (and puppets of banned members).

So, if it's just you writing and you have no overlords dictating what you can write about, you should have no prior inhibitions getting in the way of exploring narratives of the crime that fit the evidence and show Raffaele and Amanda as guilty. If it's not overloards blocking such a response, it must have something to do with your inability to come up with such a scenario. We had no difficulty finding a lone wolf scenario that satisfies the evidentiary points without the involvement of A&R. Most of it was actually quite easy since the evidence leads the way.

I suggest you quit useless provocation. I will talk about what I care about.
 
It is possible to identify a stain as semen stain in situwith a confirmatory test; but the confirmatory test is based on a dark-coloured enzyme which would stain the fabric permanently. The other possible technique is to remove the stain, aka cut away a stained piece of fabric the separate its components in a solvent and analyze them with a microscope.
The DNA analysis obviously would require the removal of fabric, or in alternative use the solvent directly on the item in order to have the semen-cells moisted again so to pick them with a swab. We are talking about old stains. All these techniques would damage the item permanently.

Oh no! Who would want to have a little hole in their pillowcase?

LOL. We can destroy the computers. But take a chad-size piece out of a pillowcase? No way. You can't make up stuff this stupid.
 
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Oh no! Who would want to have a little hole in their pillowcase?

LOL. We can destroy the computers. But take a chad-size piece out of a pillowcase? No way. You can't make up stuff this stupid.

They like to be very careful about preserving the evidence.
 
The recommended procedure to avoid leaving a permanent stain on the garment is to use a buffer solution to moisten the suspected biological material and absorb it on another media such as blotter paper or cotton swab before applying the staining enzyme.

Now, could Machiavelli honestly not figure this out or is he just continuing to spin lies.
 
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The recommended procedure to avoid leaving a permanent stain on the garment is to use a buffer solution to moisten the suspected biological material and absorb it on another media such as blotter paper or cotton swab.

Now, could Machiavelli honestly not figure this out or is he just continuing to spin lies.

The concern about damaging the object is absurd. There is a large area they could cut one or more pieces from. The rest they can store with the bra clasp and the bloody towels.

ETA: Oh, maybe they did that already. Does anyone know if the pillowcase is actually still around?
 
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