The Second Amendment and the "Right" to Bear Arms

[Information Analyst]

Utter nonsense. It is an argument used only by those disparate to try to show (unsuccessfully) that the US doesn't really have a gun violence problem. Just take out gangs, states with large illegal Mexican populations, Chicago, Detroit etc etc and everything's a okay....

But, of course, only as long as a similar filter isn't applied to what other country is being used as a comparison. Take out British gangs, London, Birmingham, Manchester, etc., and what's left of the UK is probably still a lot better than what's left of the US!

 

[WildCat]

Utter nonsense. It is an argument used only by those disparate to try to show (unsuccessfully) that the US doesn't really have a gun violence problem. Just take out gangs, states with large illegal Mexican populations, Chicago, Detroit etc etc and everything's a okay....

What it shows is that there is little to no relationship between guns per capita and homicides.

If there was you could construct a formula where you could predict the approximate number of homicides solely by knowing the number of guns per capita. Can you do that? If not, can you admit that other factors are far more influential?

 

[lionking]

What it shows is that there is little to no relationship between guns per capita and homicides.

If there was you could construct a formula where you could predict the approximate number of homicides solely by knowing the number of guns per capita. Can you do that? If not, can you admit that other factors are far more influential?

The common denominator is the US gun culture resulting in the widespread ownership and use of firearms. Cherry picking small portions of the US doesn't disguise this.

ETA The suggestion that the US doesn't have a gun violence problem because Vermont doesn't is just laughable.

 

[ServiceSoon]

The common denominator is the US gun culture resulting in the widespread ownership and use of firearms. Cherry picking small portions of the US doesn't disguise this...

If I can find a state with high levels of gun ownership that doesn't have near the level of homicides as another, then I proved that firearms are a factor, but not the main culprit. This isn't a form of gerrymandering, cherry-picking or disguising anything.

 

[WildCat]

The common denominator is the US gun culture resulting in the widespread ownership and use of firearms. Cherry picking small portions of the US doesn't disguise this.

ETA The suggestion that the US doesn't have a gun violence problem because Vermont doesn't is just laughable.

This doesn't address my post at all. Would you like to try again?

 

[lionking]

If I can find a state with high levels of gun ownership that doesn't have near the level of homicides as another, then I proved that firearms are a factor, but not the main culprit. This isn't a form of gerrymandering, cherry-picking or disguising anything.

No, you've simple proved that the US, like virtually every nation, is diverse. Overall there is gun violence at an unacceptable level, in my opinion.

 

[ServiceSoon]

I found this gem of an article today.

When discussing the difference in homicide rates between states, like comparing gun restricted cities like Chicago to well, any other place. The lack of border control between the states is where the blame is placed for the ineffectiveness of Chicago's firearm laws. However, when it comes to border countries or countries across an ocean, this excuse is non-existent.

 

[ServiceSoon]

No, you've simple proved that the US, like virtually every nation, is diverse. Overall there is gun violence at an unacceptable level, in my opinion.

Agreed. There is a gun violence issue in Chicago. They should ban guns there or something to reduce that

 

[arthwollipot]

So, basically you're using the Truther method to avoid answering questions, and sticking to your guns. We call that JAQing off. And I'm very disappointed that you, a poster I have had a lot of respect for, would do that. Damn. Oh well. Can't learn em all.

I wouldn't expect you, of all people, to understand. You are the one who terrifies me the most.

 

[triforcharity]

Cool story bro.....That's really amusing either way. I mean, it's completely irrational. But hey, guns are an emotional topic for some.

 

[arthwollipot]

So, just trolling then. Gotcha.

Not at all. I've sparked some considerable amount of discussion here, many opinions have been expressed, and I am continuing to participate in the conversation as I can. When a thread like this attracts so many posts in a short time, I cannot possibly hope to respond to all of them.

 

[triforcharity]

You show up, start a thread, ask a bunch of questions, act like you're willing to engage in a discussion, a BUNCH of different posters ask questions. You're nowhere to be found. A few days later, you show up, claim you're not convinced, and you're not going to answer any questions. That's the definition of trolling. Or more accurately JAQ'ing off.

 

[arthwollipot]

But it does have weight in the argument. Comparing the USA to Scotland is silly. Comparing individual states within the USA makes a whole lot more sense.

Utter nonsense. It is an argument used only by those disparate to try to show (unsuccessfully) that the US doesn't really have a gun violence problem. Just take out gangs, states with large illegal Mexican populations, Chicago, Detroit etc etc and everything's a okay....

Anyway, I thought this wasn't about American exceptionalism.

 

[arthwollipot]

You show up, start a thread, ask a bunch of questions, act like you're willing to engage in a discussion, a BUNCH of different posters ask questions. You're nowhere to be found. A few days later, you show up, claim you're not convinced, and you're not going to answer any questions. That's the definition of trolling. Or more accurately JAQ'ing off.

For the record, that few days was a long weekend. On my weekends I tend to like doing things other than sitting in front of a computer. I get out and do things, some of them outdoors. Sorry if this isn't convenient for you.

Furthermore, in a thread with many hundreds of posts, I am not going to dig up responses for posts that were made many pages ago.

Like I said, I have participated in a number of gun threads (including this one), lurked on quite a few others, and considered the arguments that gun owners such as yourself have put forward. I have come to the conclusion that they terrify me.

You have affected my opinion, though perhaps not in the way you like. You (spefically and others) have made me more in favour of severe gun control. Your vociferous and at times bordering on the religious support for guns and gun ownership makes me more and more certain that attitudes such as yours need to be curbed for the good of society.

Give me the power, and I will take your guns.

Lucky for you, there is no such power on this earth, and for that I despair.

 

[angrysoba]

No, back in the day when sacking a city meant killing everyone in it right then and there, not scratching them and waiting for an infection to kill them.

Yes, but you will probably find that violent crime death rates are down everywhere in the developed world, and even in most of the developing world in the time frame that you are talking about so the trend is probably not attributable to the availability of guns.

 

[Cylinder]

Give me the power, and I will take your guns.

Thus, inadvertently illustrating the founder's wisdom in including the second amendment to the newly-minted Constitution.

 

[arthwollipot]

Thus, inadvertently illustrating the founder's wisdom in including the second amendment to the newly-minted Constitution.

And clearly and unequivocably illustrating the reason for my statement. Thank you for demonstrating that. I couldn't have been clearer myself.

 

[3point14]

What it shows is that there is little to no relationship between guns per capita and homicides.

No it doesn't. That's awful statistical analysis. You haven't corrected for anything. there could be a hundred other factors bringing the rate down in the places you cherry picked that you haven't accounted for while guns per capita could still be a driving force.

How you are attempting to make your numbers work is very, very poor statistacal analysis. Stoppit.

 

[zooterkin]

It's already been stated in this thread. Did you miss it?

It appears to be simply every able-bodied man between certain ages. Doesn't strike me as conforming to "well regulated", for a start. If you're called up, by the government, they will provide you with weapons, so, again, I fail to see how it is relevant.

 

[Belz...]

That we're discussing guns on this forum has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I made. You may well have cited the price of apples.

Ouch. I gave you far too much credit. Allow me to explain:

We're discussing this over and over again BECAUSE incidents like this keep happening, which proves that guns don't make people more careful about getting into confrontations.