• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

So why should I not be ticked off with the GOP right now?

In the current situation, I'd agree that "defund ACA" was over the top/impossible psition, but the second bill deserve a serious response as a negotiating position in a nation divided on the bill. The Dems refuse to negotiate and are acting as the intransigent absolutists here.

No. They aren't. A clean CR was ready to roll and be voted on. It would have passed the house, the senate, and Obama would have signed it. It was only blocked by a tiny core minority of the Republican party who are extremists who feel that negotiation of any sort is a failure. Thank your local tea party extremist.
 
The Dems refuse to negotiate and are acting as the intransigent absolutists here.
The question on the table is authorizing to fund what's already been agreed to. What's so hard to understand about that?

Do you know the difference between the process negotiating legislation, reaching agreement and then each year paying for it?

Do you negotiate ever month with your mortgage holder? Do you say you don't want to pay for the bedroom you're not using or don't like?
 
False analogy. Health-care privileges are not nearly as important as gun rights.

It's not a false analogy. We're not comparing health care vs gun rights. We're comparing the methods of forcing something through despite knowing it would never pass a legitimate vote. I gave an example in which Obama could pull the same stunt that Boehner is trying to in a manner with some context.
 
The question on the table is authorizing to fund what's already been agreed to. What's so hard to understand about that?

Do you know the difference between the process negotiating legislation, reaching agreement and then each year paying for it?

Do you negotiate ever month with your mortgage holder? Do you say you don't want to pay for the bedroom you're not using or don't like?

It's analogies like this which are going to result in the GOP/Tea Party getting kicked in the teeth over this whole mess.
 
It's analogies like this which are going to result in the GOP/Tea Party getting kicked in the teeth over this whole mess.
Repeating what I said in another thread is I'm not so sure they will. The House reps only need to worry about their (gerrymandered) districts. The idiots that voted them in probably are nodding in agreement with their stupidity.
 
You are unaware that both parties have used this tactic in years past ?
Using a threat to deliberately tank the entire economy as political leverage? Can you cite examples?

What minority ? The Reps are a majority in the House - the branch that is required to originate spending bills.
The teabagger Republicans are not even a majority in the House; much less the entire Congress -- which is why they have been unsuccessful in their attempts to repeal the ACA despite have tried more than forty times. That minority.
 
It's not a false analogy. We're not comparing health care vs gun rights. We're comparing the methods of forcing something through despite knowing it would never pass a legitimate vote. I gave an example in which Obama could pull the same stunt that Boehner is trying to in a manner with some context.

False analogy again. We will DIE to protect our rights. Also, you can't compare the Democrat Party to the Grand ol' Party.
 
False analogy again. We will DIE to protect our rights. Also, you can't compare the Democrat Party to the Grand ol' Party.

There is no right to buy a gun from a private seller without a background check, which already is required for purchases from dealers. That is simply the current law, which could be changed if both houses of Congress voted for it and the president signed it. The point is that the president cannot unilaterally proclaim "Do what I want or I'll shut down the government," which is the Tea Party position.
 
False analogy again. We will DIE to protect our rights. Also, you can't compare the Democrat Party to the Grand ol' Party.

I'd go so far as to say gun ownership isn't a right. It's a responsibility. We're gonna have to agree to disagree there. But, let's drop that specific point, given it's being leveraged as a derail in this thread.
 
Both sides are to blame. Both sides didn't want to work together. This should have been taken care of a LONG time ago. It's amazing, we're supposed to have this Obama Care, but we can't even pay the bills we have. It's time to figure out what needs to be done to get our budget under control. BOTH sides. House and Senate.
Obamacare decreases the deficit, and the US doesn't have any problem whatsoever paying its bills, as long as the Republicans aren't obstructing. The US deficit is also shrinking rapidly and will be under control (accouting for normal economic growth) by 2015:

F0m43s0.png
 
Last edited:
MSNBC just ran a series of "man (and woman) in the street" interviews in which passersby were asked "Given a choice, would you prefer Obamacare or the Affordable Care Act?" Everyone chose the ACA, some even holding forth at length about how much better the ACA is than crappy old Obamacare. The power of propaganda....
 
The entire economy is not going to tank because of this shutdown.

You're probably right. It'll just give it a little tickle.

A government shutdown could cost the still-struggling U.S. economy roughly $1 billion a week in pay lost by furloughed federal workers. And that's only the tip of the iceberg.
 
How can you blame them for using the procedures in place to advance their agenda? I mean, if you grant that they actually believe it's the right thing to do, why wouldn't they try everything they can?

Call me a cynic, but I doubt that part.

But anyway a part of the governement should uphold the moral , ethic, and law. Using blackmail refusing to pass some budget, to cancel another unrelated law which already passed, is rather disgusting. And it won't be without consequence either if it is allowed. it will be carte blanche in the future for anybody using the same tactic to have it "their way" or "no way". You want really a governement like that ?
 
That's not an offer, that's their demand for something they alone want coupled to something both Democrats and Republicans want.

Yes it is an offer. I'd classify it as an unreasonable offer, but an offer none the less. Your link contains no discernible info on what "Dems and Reps want". Some blather that certain House members have certain agendas.

Again, that's not an offer, that's a different demand for something they alone want coupled to something both Democrats and Republicans want.

Wrong. The House originates spending & budget bills, and then they go to Senate for markup & modification, then usually to a reconciliation committee for a draft meant to pass both House&Senate. This is a legit OFFER, and can be revised in any way the Senate wants - if Harry Reid allows it. Reid's refusal ids intransigence.


Funding the government gives both Democrats and Republicans something they want...so what do Democrats get in return for acceding to the additional demands made by Republicans?

Go read the definition of "demand" vs "offer" and then read your HS civics text and then drop your hyperbolic language on the topic. OF COURSE the House offered terms to their advantage, and the Senate should respond with a compromise they find advantageous.

The ACA is greatly disliked by a large segment of the population. It was developed and passed in a uni-partisan manner. Someday the other party will own the Whitehouse and the Congress and without any buy-in they may kill the ACA. It's in the Dem interest to get some form of Rep acceptance/involvement for their bill. This is an small opening.

If you imagine that an unread one-party ACA bill drafted in the middle of the night is perfect - then you are a fool. This is an opportunity for Dems to delay & revise and improve the ACA and make it workable. As it stands it's got serious fraud and security issues, and the device make tax seems ill-advised. The waivers and exemptions look illegal to me.

On the politics only - the Reps (IMO) are making a serious mistake by not forcing the immediate implementation of ACA and removing waivers and exemptions for all. It would likely be a train-wreck and prehaps fail or bust the budget. Reps are giving Dems a grand opening to revise an improve and to blame the Reps for the delay to boot.

So the Dems get some Rep fingerprints on the deed, they get a chance to improve the very troubled program and to blame the Reps for the delay. I'm not a Dem (nor a Rep) and so I can't speak to what else they want in the budget.


There's nothing to compromise with.

Nonsense. The Senate got an offer that does address some real looking problems - the Senate could propose any counter they want. Failing to do so makes them the obstinate ones.

Again, what are the Republicans offering to Democrats in return for these things?

They are offering one position on the budget - and one that includes everything including ACA funding along with a delay and attempts to address perceived problems in ACA. It's up to the Senate to counter.

Say you want $15k for your used car and I offer you $14k if you buy new tires and get the engine checked. You can't say that's not a valid offer. You can't claim it's a "demand". You can't argue that my position didn't include anything for you. You are viewing the "Dems get everything they want" position as the center point for negotiation when that is blatantly unreasonable and unilateral. Look up "compromise" and consider than not everyone (maybe not a majority) wants this one-party bill.

The Dems may eventually lose the entire ACA if they can't create a compromise.
 
There is no right to buy a gun from a private seller without a background check, which already is required for purchases from dealers. That is simply the current law, which could be changed if both houses of Congress voted for it and the president signed it. The point is that the president cannot unilaterally proclaim "Do what I want or I'll shut down the government," which is the Tea Party position.


I'd go so far as to say gun ownership isn't a right. It's a responsibility. We're gonna have to agree to disagree there. But, let's drop that specific point, given it's being leveraged as a derail in this thread.

Bob and Mister,

Although Cain does occasionally post seriously (he would probably be best defined as a bit left-of-center, politically), when he posts things that can be interpreted as extreme-right, it can probably be assumed that he is just practicing his Poe-foo.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom