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So why should I not be ticked off with the GOP right now?

The ACA was already funded. It was completely irrelevant to the actual meat of the problem.

What then, is the "meat" of the problem as you see it?

Here's a quote from the President:
"Republicans in the House of Representatives refused to fund the government unless we defunded or dismantled the Affordable Care Act."

Does that sum it up?
 
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What then, is the "meat" of the problem as you see it?

Here's a quote from the President:
"Republicans in the House of Representatives refused to fund the government unless we defunded or dismantled the Affordable Care Act."

Does that sum it up?

I'd say that sums it up nicely. You don't see a problem with this?
 
What then, is the "meat" of the problem as you see it?

Here's a quote from the President:
"Republicans in the House of Representatives refused to fund the government unless we defunded or dismantled the Affordable Care Act."

Does that sum it up?

No, not at all. The ACA was already funded. That money was already allocated. It was other programs that needed to be worked out. (and no, I don't know what issues were actually on the block this time around.)



eta: uke2se is correct, it sums up what happened, but not what the CR was actually supposed to be doing.
 
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I'd say that sums it up nicely. You don't see a problem with this?

Personally, I'm in favor of Obamacare. On that level, yes, there's a problem. But we are discussing how the legislative branch of the government functions, and I have a problem with duly elected representatives being told they shouldn't use the legal mechanisms in place to try and reach their goals.

As far as I can tell, they are operating within the law and Constitution. If that's the case, then where is the problem?
 
I don't think anyone's mad at them for doing something percieved to be illegal. We are mad at them for doing something pointless at our expense. They know it'll never pass. They've had 42 reminders it'll never pass. But in spite of that they're out to browbeat the public into letting them have their way at our expense. That's what we're mad about.

They went into this full well knowing what would happen. They just simply did not care.

#EDIT: I've said this many times, but I'll say it again. If the Republican party spent half the effort they do into protecting corporate profits into helping the common man, this country would be a utopia now.
 
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As far as I can tell, they are operating within the law and Constitution. If that's the case, then where is the problem?

How about attaching non-funding-related changes to existing legislation to a funding bill that, if it doesn't pass, results in a government shutdown?
 
How about attaching non-funding-related changes to existing legislation to a funding bill that, if it doesn't pass, results in a government shutdown?

If it's a big deal now, it ought to be a big deal when they do the same thing on other spending bills. I hear the "farm bill" is notorious for getting lots of junk tacked on - for the same reason too: no one thinks their opponents will dare not pass it and upset the farmers. Defense is another good one.

It's common practice and a good way to sneak your pork by.
 
If it's a big deal now, it ought to be a big deal when they do the same thing on other spending bills. I hear the "farm bill" is notorious for getting lots of junk tacked on - for the same reason too: no one thinks their opponents will dare not pass it and upset the farmers. Defense is another good one.

It's common practice and a good way to sneak your pork by.

Neither of those are comparable to this, because neither of those threatened or resulted in a full government shutdown.
 
....
As far as I can tell, they are operating within the law and Constitution. If that's the case, then where is the problem?

One issue is that the House of Representatives as a whole is not being permitted to vote on a "clean bill," that is, a bill that would fund the government without defunding or delaying Obamacare -- which was passed by both houses of Congress, signed by the President and even approved by the Supreme Court after a constitutional challenge, and on which the President ran for and won re-election. It's pretty clear that almost all Democrats and many Republicans would vote for a clean bill, but the Tea Party crowd is blocking consideration. So in effect a minority of one party of one branch of government is paralyzing the entire federal government, depriving all its employees of their salaries and all Americans of its services. If you don't have the votes, you lose. The tea partiers fail to grasp this basic concept of democracy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/01/opinion/nocera-those-banana-republicans.html?hp
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/o...?hp&gwh=6C7DFC6D9A7C4D374AEA081553DE6A0C&_r=0
 
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How would you guys feel if Obama refused to sign any CR unless it had a provision mandating background checks in gun shows?
 
Personally, I'm in favor of Obamacare. On that level, yes, there's a problem. But we are discussing how the legislative branch of the government functions, and I have a problem with duly elected representatives being told they shouldn't use the legal mechanisms in place to try and reach their goals.

As far as I can tell, they are operating within the law and Constitution. If that's the case, then where is the problem?
Again I will make a comparison to Presidential powers, which include acting as Commander in Chief of the military. It is true that Article II uses the word "power" rather than "responsibility" (as does Article I with respect to Congressional "powers") -- still, would a President be considered to be acting legally if our country came under attack and he (or she) decided that he (or she) did not feel inclined to assume that duty?
 
Yep. Of particular concern is that the Founders do not seem to have anticipated such a scenario.

So what exactly do they teach in civics class these days ? You've never heard of the "power of the purse". You are unaware that both parties have used this tactic in years past ?

Article I, Section 9, Clause 7 imposes accountability on Congressional spending:

No money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

That's the "law of the land" too.

In Federalist #58 Madison writes ...
The House of Representatives cannot only refuse, but they alone can propose the supplies requisite for the support of government. They, in a word, hold the purse—that powerful instrument by which we behold, in the history of the British Constitution, an infant and humble representation of the people gradually enlarging the sphere of its activity and importance, and finally reducing, as far as it seems to have wished, all the overgrown prerogatives of the other branches of the government. This power over the purse may, in fact, be regarded as the most complete and effectual weapon with which any constitution can arm the immediate representatives of the people, for obtaining a redress of every grievance, and for carrying into effect every just and salutary measure.

FAILI it was fully anticipated by the founders.


As far as I can tell, there is no legal remedy against a persistent minority faction willing to go that far -- other than waiting for the next election, by which time irreparable harm will already have been inflicted.

What minority ? The Reps are a majority in the House - the branch that is required to originate spending bills. I won't accuse you of it Dymanic, but some seem to think we have an autocratic form of government where the president is in charge. Just the opposite; the office of the Pres was designed to be weak.


There is nothing to negotiate. The Republicans are making only demands, and no offers.

Reps offered to fund all of Gov except for Obamacare. Then later offered a 1yr rollout delay + removal of the device tax + denial of the Federal exemption. So far the Dems have loudly announced they won't negotiate and haven't responded with any intention to produce any sort of compromise.

This problem would likely neveer exist except that the Senate/Harry Reid has for years refused to bring an omnibus budget bill to the floor (several have been proposed by the House) and has failed to pass a budget, despite that this is against the "law of the land".

Harry Reid is large part of the current problem.

==

There is actually a LOT to negotiate here.

1/ The tax burden on med device makers seems counter-productive and generally harmful.

2/ The exemption for full complaince and waivers given to McDonalds, JackInTheBox and many other big companies is an exemption from taxation and seems to represent unequal treatment under the law, as well as an obvious case of crony capitalism.

3/ The current ACA inadequate security and evaluation of eligibility seems designed to permit massive fraud against government and individuals. No private enterprise would roll-out such an incompetent system. It needs rework. NIST should be involved in setting proper security standards.
 
Reps offered to fund all of Gov except for Obamacare.

That's not an offer, that's their demand for something they alone want coupled to something both Democrats and Republicans want.

Then later offered a 1yr rollout delay + removal of the device tax + denial of the Federal exemption.

Again, that's not an offer, that's a different demand for something they alone want coupled to something both Democrats and Republicans want.

Funding the government gives both Democrats and Republicans something they want...so what do Democrats get in return for acceding to the additional demands made by Republicans?

So far the Dems have loudly announced they won't negotiate and haven't responded with any intention to produce any sort of compromise.

There's nothing to compromise with.

There is actually a LOT to negotiate here.

1/ The tax burden on med device makers seems counter-productive and generally harmful.

2/ The exemption for full complaince and waivers given to McDonalds, JackInTheBox and many other big companies is an exemption from taxation and seems to represent unequal treatment under the law, as well as an obvious case of crony capitalism.

3/ The current ACA inadequate security and evaluation of eligibility seems designed to permit massive fraud against government and individuals. No private enterprise would roll-out such an incompetent system. It needs rework. NIST should be involved in setting proper security standards.

Again, what are the Republicans offering to Democrats in return for these things?
 
How would you guys feel if Obama refused to sign any CR unless it had a provision mandating background checks in gun shows?

Perfectly fine. A Pres can veto anything he wants, and Congress can bypass a veto if they want. The veto was meant to stop bad legislation, not legislate or budget from the Oval Office. Until FDR there was an unwritten rule to not veto budget&finance bills, but only legislation. BTW a lot of very bad bills from the era can be traced to FDRs excessive use of veto and his manipulations of SCOTUS.

In the current situation, I'd agree that the Rep "defund ACA" was over the top/impossible position, but the second bill deserve a serious response as a negotiating position in a nation divided on the ACA bill. The Dems refuse to negotiate and are acting as the intransigent absolutists now.
 
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Then later offered a 1yr rollout delay + removal of the device tax + denial of the Federal exemption.

This snipped bit is just the Tea Party more or less asking Obama for more time to sabotage his health care law.
 
Personally, I'm in favor of Obamacare. On that level, yes, there's a problem. But we are discussing how the legislative branch of the government functions, and I have a problem with duly elected representatives being told they shouldn't use the legal mechanisms in place to try and reach their goals.

As far as I can tell, they are operating within the law and Constitution. If that's the case, then where is the problem?

There is a difference between doing that which is legal and doing that which is ethical (or unethical). I think it is that difference which is getting a lot of people wound up.
 
Reps offered ...snip

As I have pointed out all of their "offers" were tied to very short continuing resolutions that would have freed the hostage, the economy, only to have it returned to an emboldened and more reckless GOP in a few months. It would be the height or irresponsibility to allow the GOP to get everything they want and the hostage back.
 

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