Continuation Part Six: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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errr....

"nothing that could convince me of either of these two young kids having committed this crime"
"I am open to any one actually disproving ... Amanda and Raffaele's innocence."
 
A fair and non-corrupt system follow the laws. And the law provides Guede a right to remain silent.
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This is only true if the laws are just and don't encourage corruption. It's safe to say this is not the case in Italy, where laws are designed to produce systematic violations of human rights (by your own admission).
 
Which should prove to you conclusively that the Italian justice system is severely flawed and hopelessly corrupt. What qualifies Nencini or Crini to make a conclusion about the importance of the EDF's? Nothing!

Do they both have a firm grasp on DNA analysis? No! These two clowns are parroting Massei and Mignini.

And what qualifies the defence to make further requests - such as to require data they had not been requiring for the previous years - without proving they could be useful to that purpose?
They failed to bring up a credible reason.
If they said "we have a new witness with extremely important information" they would have been granted the request. But they said "we require these data we never required before (in 2009, we even stated they would be equivalent to the charts), because they could prove contamination".
Obviously the prosecution said: please, show us how these data (which called unimportant by all witnsses for years ) could prove contamination...

The real question should be ....why allow a look at the phantom i sample meanwhile denying a look at the complete data files? What can it hurt? Nothing!

The problem is that this is an appeal. You don't allow things just because they do't hurt. You allow requests only if they are shown to be actually meaningful. There must be an 'exceptinal' reason to grant a request.

The fact is that the EDF are exactly for the purpose of identifying contamination or OR disproving contamination.

The parties had the possibility of having these data from the very beginning and they were never requestes. The parties then years later requested 'equivalent' data. Then Vecchiotti and Conti also requested and obtained all the data they requested.
So how is it that someone claims that there is a compelling exceptional reason to require some more data?
 
TofuFighter is right. The world may be an illusion for all we know. Rational thinking, however, is concerned with probability. I've always found it telling that much of the pro-Knox commentary on the net comes from sites like this and LessWrong, drowned out in volume though it may be by the online lynch mob that makes up the other side. So it's always disappointing when some want to reduce Knox's innocence to a question of faith.
 
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This is only true if the laws are just and don't encourage corruption. It's safe to say this is not the case in Italy, where laws are designed to produce systematic violations of human rights (by your own admission).

Don't attempt to falsely attribute me things I didn't say; please avoid to misreport or twist people's words by putting generalizing meanings which were never expressed.
 
Don't attempt to falsely attribute me things I didn't say; please avoid to misreport or twist people's words by putting generalizing meanings which were never expressed.

You did say that Italy as a problem with excessive length of trials, so I don't see your point.
 
I'm skeptical of people who say that they're guilty. In fact, they're wrong. And since they're either innocent or guilty, that makes me right. Yay!

Yes, but.............

The actual corollary of "guilty" is "presumed innocent", not "innocent". There's a distinct difference.

I actually agree totally with TofuFighter: it's impossible for anyone other than Knox and Sollecito themselves - as well as Guede and anyone else who might potentially have been involved - to know FOR CERTAIN that Knox and/or Sollecito are innocent.

Furthermore, it's absolutely not necessary to foster a certainty of innocence to support the acquittal of Knox/Sollecito. In fact, it's not strictly necessary even to believe that they are innocent: one should support acquittal if there's insufficient evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

I've mentioned before that the only other case in which I've engaged in any debate was the Barry George case (the Jill Dando murder). I am actually ambivalent as to whether George actually did commit the murder or not, and if pushed to choose one way or the other, I'd have to say I think he did do it. But it was always massively clear that there was virtually no credible evidence of his guilt, and most definitely not enough to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Instead, his conviction was the result of badly-argued forensics, the public hysteria around the case, and the fact that George was/is a very unpleasant, damaged man.

In the Knox/Sollecito case, my position is that I believe they had nothing to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher. In my opinion, that belief is supported by the lack of any credible/reliable evidence of guilt, and the presence of an entirely plausible/credible alternative narrative that supports all the known evidence (and lack of evidence): that Rudy Guede broke in through Filomena's window; that he was surprised by the return of Meredith at 9pm; that he then confronted, sexually assaulted and killed Meredith well before 10pm; that he then performed a cursory clean-up of himself and returning to his apartment, probably by 10.30pm (throwing away the phones on the way); that he then went out partying in order to try to create an alibi (or at least evidence of a "carefree" attitude that night); that he then fled to Germany as he saw the police heat being turned up in Perugia.

I repeat, though: I don't think it's possible for anyone outside of a select few people (listed above) to be able to state WITH CERTAINTY that Knox/Sollecito are innocent. And I also repeat that this lack of absolute certainty is not required to believe in, and argue for, either a) their acquittal, or b) a strong belief in their innocence.
 
Question for you Diocletus. Since 36I is not listed as a part of the DNA report that I have.

I'm assuming that 36I is not actually a sample as of yet...right? This is what might be inside the handle of the knife after the clamshell of the handle is broken apart. Correct?
Sample 36-I was taken by C&V.
Laboratory Analysis of Item 36
Thus, the areas on the handle of the knife were indicated with the letters A-D-F, while the areas of interest on the blade were indicated with the letters B-C-E-G.
With the agreement of the parties, two further samples were taken from the point of contact between the blade and the handle, on opposite sides of the knife, and these samples were indicated with the letters H-I.
Analysis of Individual DNA Extracts (Samples A-M)
With regard to samples A-M, the real-time PCR analysis reveals a very low initial amount of DNA, with the maximum measurable DNA concentration at 0.005 ng/μL (5 pg/μL) in sample “I”.
 
testing the hypothesis

errr....

"nothing that could convince me of either of these two young kids having committed this crime"
"I am open to any one actually disproving ... Amanda and Raffaele's innocence."
There are several pieces of evidence that if they had been tested in a timely manner in an independent lab could have swayed me. One is checking the interior of the kitchen knife for Meredith's blood, and another is checking the putative semen stain on the pillow via DNA profiling. I might even change my vote if I could see a tape of the interrogations, and they had no coercive elements. Funny how these pieces of evidence never emerged.
 
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the requests came from both defense teams

The parties had the possibility of having these data from the very beginning and they were never requestes. The parties then years later requested 'equivalent' data. Then Vecchiotti and Conti also requested and obtained all the data they requested.
So how is it that someone claims that there is a compelling exceptional reason to require some more data?
Carlo dalla Vedova confirmed in a 2011 interview that the defense had asked for the complete forensic files and never received them. I have linked to this story many times.
 
So how is it that someone claims that there is a compelling exceptional reason to require some more data?
Simple. Now the supreme court has dictated that the defense must prove exactly how contamination occurred. So, they now require the records.

And anyway, why shouldn't they have them? If they can't be used to show contamination, then all that will have happened is that the prosecution will have turned over the records and they will never play a roll in the appeal. Is it just because it's too much of a bother for the prosecution to turn them over? I don't believe that. People who hide records are hiding something.

Justice doesn't have an expiration date.
 
Can anyone tell me the timetable for the current appeal? When and how often will the court sit? Is it going to stretch on for months again?

There is a hearing on Friday (Oct 4th) and two more later this month. There are a couple more in November and the verdict is expected in December - this is what we've got.

Edit - exact court dates -
September 30; October 4, 23, 24; and November 6, 7, 25, and 26.
 
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When I read you guys criticizing Amanda like this, it raises questions in my mind. For example, I wonder whether you actually have your fingers to the pulse of public opinion. Do you know for a fact that other people are offended by the same things you are offended by, and that what you don't like about Amanda's behavior is actually harmful to her situation?

No, I haven't done extensive polling or focus group analysis. I doubt anyone has. I'm not offended by the remarks. I just think they serve no positive purpose and gave fodder to the press and the pro guilt crowd. I certainly understand the Kerchers' response.

[quote[Second, when you imagine the group of people Amanda is not impressing, or may even be alienating, what kind of people are you imagining? Obviously, she is alienating you, but have you checked to see whether there are enough other people just like you out there that their influence is a factor in Amanda's situation? Have you ascertained whether you have the moral authority to be giving her advice versus whether you are just armchair quarterbacking?[/quote]

About 90% of people think exactly like I do. :rolleyes:

I'm not being alienated. I firmly believe that the evidence in this case does not rise to the standard of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Since I'm commenting, as are you, on a Internet forum it is difficult to claim moral authority. However, I have much respect for a number of people that have expertise in certain fields. I don't argue DNA, phones or computer records. I may argue how to present information because that is something I've done for years.

Third, your primary concern seems to be public relations, which is great. How do you think it looks to the public, though, when some of Amanda's supporters criticize her, and for essentially the same reasons the Perugians criticized her? In my opinion, a strong united front should be one without cracks, even if you have to bite your keyboards to prevent yourselves from venting.

I don't think what is written here impacts public opinion directly. I think many here have given suggestions that would make the case better than the actual people in charge are making. I've laid out how I'd approach many aspects and surprisingly think I've done a good job.

I am not FOA. To the extent that my input has any impact, which I doubt, I hope it moves the case to seek truth and justice.

I'm no more a fan of crackless fronts in the PI than I am for the PG.

The emperor had no clothes. Really.

I know you don't see it this way, but to me, there is a very short distance between, "I wish someone would tell her to knock it off"/"She is a lousy spokesperson" and, "Her situation is nobody's fault but her own." Or worse.

She, herself, made comments that reflected some of the above. I clearly don't believe that the case has been made for guilt but Amanda has a forum and I'd use it far differently.

Tell me how the "visiting the grave" was helpful? The "I'd take a lie detector test" was much better.
 
Is there a source for the C&V report remaining in place for this appeal?

Why would it matter if the EDF files were requested in time or not? What sort of system would allow the prosecution to deny information that already exists and would not cost anything significant to produce. The Kerchers in addition to the defendants want as much information to be presented as possible. In the US if a defense attorney made significant errors in making requests, including missing deadlines, the appeals court would likely send the case back to assure proper representation.

In Italy it seems to be some sort of game - you took your finger off the rook, the move is made, too bad.

Even the PGP are coming around to need for as much testing as possible. Raf and Amanda should be pushing for that in every interview.
 
They failed to bring up a credible reason.
If they said "we have a new witness with extremely important information" they would have been granted the request. But they said "we require these data we never required before (in 2009, we even stated they would be equivalent to the charts), because they could prove contamination".

Please explain why "they could prove contamination" is not a credible reason given the facts that 1) the records obviously CAN prove contamination, and 2) the defense is required to prove contamination.


Obviously the prosecution said: please, show us how these data (which called unimportant by all witnsses for years ) could prove contamination...

Did the prosecution say that? Or are you just speculating? What was the answer given. The records can be used to prove contamination or lack of contamination, so what exactly is the dispute here? One of the exact purposes for creating these records is to allow for the investigation of contamination.


Then Vecchiotti and Conti also requested and obtained all the data they requested.

No one cares about them. They are the court's own experts and they can't waive the defendants' rights to obtain relevant information.
 
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I don't credit the "arguments" such as they are, and i couldn't find what the total number of people voting was, but there is at least some indication of public opinion.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-amanda-knox-guilty

Personally, while it's interesting to debate the various aspects of the crime, I don't think any lay person is qualified to say "she's guilty" or "she's innocent".

A lot of people on JRef are vehemently pro-Knox. I believe there's bias involved in that, just as there is bias in the general British (and i guess, Italian) view of her being guilty.

If the new trial finds her guilty, will JRef americans accept that? or will it be considered a conspiracy against Foxy Knoxy?[/


You do not have to even ask that question, they are making up their excuses already, just in case. I do agree with what you said about guilty and not guilty, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who claims they are 100% sure of either, not really worth discussing with and there are quite a few on both sides of this.
 
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I don't credit the "arguments" such as they are, and i couldn't find what the total number of people voting was, but there is at least some indication of public opinion.

http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-amanda-knox-guilty

Personally, while it's interesting to debate the various aspects of the crime, I don't think any lay person is qualified to say "she's guilty" or "she's innocent".

A lot of people on JRef are vehemently pro-Knox. I believe there's bias involved in that, just as there is bias in the general British (and i guess, Italian) view of her being guilty.

If the new trial finds her guilty, will JRef americans accept that? or will it be considered a conspiracy against Foxy Knoxy?[/QUOTE]


You do not have to even ask that question, they are making up their excuses already, just in case. I do agree whit what you said about guilty and not guilty, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who claims they are 100% sure of either, not really worth discussing with and there are quite a few on both sides of this.

It would be an injustice. I make my mind up myself, not swayed by some courtroom full of people with their own opinions and subjective beliefs.

From the data and info Ive seen I think they're innocent.
If new evidence came out that could sway my opinion.

Im curious you claim most of Britain and Italy are for a guilty verdict , do you have any links to this info? From what I see theres not that many who consistently even follow this case.
 
TofuFighter is right. The world may be an illusion for all we know. Rational thinking, however, is concerned with probability. I've always found it telling that much of the pro-Knox commentary on the net comes from sites like this and LessWrong, drowned out in volume though it may be by the online lynch mob that makes up the other side. So it's always disappointing when some want to reduce Knox's innocence to a question of faith.

I have a similar view of the world. As a means of dealing with the world I perceive I use a concept that I call practical certainty. The idea is to assume that the world is pretty much as it seems and decide with only that assumption whether something can be known for certain or if not what are probability of truth for a particular proposition.

When I became aware of the Kercher murder trial I assumed that the truth would be unknowable and the closest we could get to knowledge of the truth would be a probability assessment. When there are two sides with strongly held views on an issue, I don't expect that evidence is available to sort out reliably which side is right and which side is wrong.

But the innocence of Knox and Sollecito is something we can know to a probability that approaches practical certainty. This is not a reasonable doubt case where the arguments are focused on the idea that the defendants might be guilty but there is insufficient evidence to prove it. To the degree we can know about these things it is provable that Knox and Sollecito are innocent.

It is a bit hard to believe, because for it to be true we have to believe that a whacked prosecutor managed to get support from the police department and most importantly from a forensic scientist to delude a compliant court into believing his fantasy narrative. Further we need to believe that a cooperative media became part of the conspiracy to frame Knox and Sollecito. But that is exactly what I believe happened. It isn't a unique situation. Prosecutions driven by out of control prosecutors with compliant police departments and courts that cooperate either because they are duped or corrupt happen in the US and presumably they happen occasionally every place where there are prosecutors, police and courts. I doubt that it is common, even in Italy where protection of the rights of the defendants seems to be a bit of an iffy proposition.

But as unlikely as it seems that so many people could have cooperated in a conspiracy to frame Knox and Sollecito it is far more unlikely that they are guilty. I think you will believe this also when you have taken a good look at the evidence in this case.
 
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