Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

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Missed my reference to previous conversation eh? Go ahead and check back, I'm not going to dig it up. They do not argue in good faith. So I'm done with them.

Are you conflating recursive prophet and me? It's him that those comments were addressed to, yet me you've said you're "done with". And, as far as I can recall, we've barely interacted before yesterday, so if there's any bad blood between us, then it's news to me.

But, again, you probably won't read this, as you're "done with me". Seemingly because you think I'm someone else...

You are advocating some kind of super vulcan nonsense. Emotion and lived experience matter, rather a lot.

Emotion and lived experience matter a lot to the person who had those experiences and who has those emotions (or, at least, it's often the case that they do. It's nowhere near as hard as it's sometimes made out to put personal feelings aside). What they don't matter to is determining what is or is not true. The truth is the truth, no matter how you or I feel about it.
 
Missed my reference to previous conversation eh? Go ahead and check back, I'm not going to dig it up. They do not argue in good faith. So I'm done with them.

I've noticed a trend. Much like other trends, such as scantily-clad superheroines, it's only significant at the group level but it is significant. The trend is that social justice warriors who are losing an argument will find some excuse to deem their opponent so terrible and horrible that they are no longer obliged to continue the argument, and flounce off.

Are some of the people they argue with terrible and horrible? Certainly. Are some of the social justice warriors using a canned excuse to get out of town when the heat gets too much? Certainly.

Bull stuff. You are advocating some kind of super vulcan nonsense. Emotion and lived experience matter, rather a lot. To pretend that only hard logic and empirical facts can be valid when discussing sociology is beyond silly. It does a tremendous disservice to the emotional beings we are and the subjective reality we must deal with. You are also making predictions with little or no data and passing off your feelings as though they are empirical fact.

If you are a critical thinker, then emotion and lived experience are still answerable to internal consistency and factual accuracy. That isn't "super vulcan nonsense", it's being a rational human being as opposed to an irrational one.

The whole point of being a critical thinker is to do enormous disservices to irrationality and error, and to irrational people. If you aren't willing to do that then you aren't willing to think critically.

Also, have you noticed that A+ will happily erase the lived experience and emotions of people whose lived experience and emotions contradict the accepted groupthink? This appeal to lived experience and emotion is rather disingenuous, because A+ as a group have no real commitment to respecting lived experience and emotion unless it's the "right" lived experience and emotion.

I get it, you don't like the board, and apparently had a bad experience there.

Now you're trying to project imaginary lived experiences on to me. That isn't very respectful, is it?

I've never posted to A+. I can't imagine why I'd want to.

Now look at how that negative emotion colors every single post you make about it. (I don't recognize your name but if you want to talk about whatever got you upset I'd be happy to.)

If you want to talk about the traumatic experiences that have led you to project this fantasy of false lived experience on to me I'm happy to talk about that. I can see how some awful experience has negatively coloured every single thing you post. If you need a shoulder to cry on, I'm here for you.

Topic For Reflection: Did you find the above paragraph welcoming, supportive and sympathetic? Or did you find it offensive, passive-aggressive and rude? Do you think people should post like that, or not?
 
...You are advocating some kind of super vulcan nonsense. Emotion and lived experience matter, rather a lot. To pretend that only hard logic and empirical facts can be valid when discussing sociology is beyond silly....

No, no he isn't. Do you do know this and are using hyperbole or do you really not know?
 
Here's the thing with the personal experience card. Sometimes it's valid and sometimes it isn't.
Your average woman would know and notice a lot more of ingrained sexism in society, thus the experiences of a woman are more valid than the general day-to-day observations of a man. Similarly a black person will know more about racism than a white person, a trans person know more about transphobia than a non trans. All perfectly reasonable, all perfectly legitimate.

A woman from London who has never left the UK on the other hand, will likely know next to nothing about the sexism inherent in Vancouver, say, whereas a man from Vancouver may or may not know more. A black man who has lived all his life in Nairobi won't know about racism in New York etc etc.

Equally, you might be a particularly fortunate or unfortunate individual experiencing less or more of the inherent prejudice than another member of the same group. A lucky black man (in this particular sphere of luck), maybe a rich dentist may know less of racial struggles than a black man from a poor neighbourhood because he's experienced less, whereas a black guy in the rural Deep South might know more than a suburbanite because he's experienced more.

That's why critical evaluation is a useful tool. Personal experience, particularly when weighted with membership of a minority or underprivileged class is a useful knowledge base, but even within such classes, there is a lot of variation.
 
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Here's the thing with the personal experience card. Sometimes it's valid and sometimes it isn't.
Your average woman would know and notice a lot more of ingrained sexism in society, thus the experiences of a woman are more valid than the general day-to-day observations of a man. Similarly a black person will know more about racism than a white person, a trans person know more about transphobia than a non trans. All perfectly reasonable, all perfectly legitimate.

A woman from London who has never left the UK on the other hand, will likely know next to nothing about the sexism inherent in Vancouver, say, whereas a man from Vancouver may or may not know more. A black man who has lived all his life in Nairobi won't know about racism in New York etc etc.

Equally, you might be a particularly fortunate or unfortunate individual experiencing less or more of the inherent prejudice than another member of the same group. A lucky black man (in this particular sphere of luck), maybe a rich dentist may know less of racial struggles than a black man from a poor neighbourhood because he's experienced less, whereas a black guy in the rural Deep South might know more than a suburbanite because he's experienced more.

That's why critical evaluation is a useful tool. Personal experience, particularly when weighted with membership of a minority or underprivileged class is a useful knowledge base, but even within such classes, there is a lot of variation.

Plus, of course, being a member of a particular group doesn't mean that you're immune to false positives. I remember being told a story by an American friend (and, truth be told, it's incredibly difficult to imagine the same thing happening in the UK, so you're absolutely right about experiences in one country not necessarily translating to experiences in another) at his work. A delivery guy, rather than going in via the delivery entrance at the back of the building, went in through the front. My friend, while signing for the parcel, jokingly said "aren't you people supposed to go round the back?". The delivery man was extremely offended because he was black, and thought that my friend was saying that black people should use the back entrances of buildings. The fact that there were potential racial implications to what he was saying hadn't even occurred to my friend, who was making a generic delivery person joke.

Now, they sorted it out and shook hands but had they not, had the delivery guy not made a big deal out of it (either because he didn't feel like getting into an argument, or because he didn't have the confidence to make an issue of it) that delivery guy would have gone away thinking that he'd just experienced a shocking example of racism. And perhaps there's a case to be made that my friend should have thought of the potential implications of what he was about to say (although, ironically, that would have involved thinking of the delivery guy's race as his primary characteristic, which I'd say was one of the defining characteristics of racism), but I don't think that you can say that what he said was actually racist. Certainly not in intent.

But how many times do people generally believe that they've experienced some form of prejudice when they actually haven't? This is not to belittle or discount the experiences of those people, or indeed to claim that prejudices don't exist and aren't a huge problem, but just to point out that our experiences of reality aren't necessarily an accurate representation of reality and that they therefore should always be approached with a degree of scepticism, and empirical data should always be preferred, if such a thing is possible.

It would have been legitimate for the delivery guy to feel like he'd just encountered racism. That doesn't mean that he did.
 
You're right. I did forget that, and threats of legal action against the forum will indeed earn you an instaban.

Even if foodstuff is telling me to sue? Aw, man... :(

Would you care to address the apparent racism that Ceepolk displays, ApostateltsopA?
Do you think it's acceptable or do you not think that it's actually racism?
 
I'll add to the comments about having had gained a bit from the privilege discussions...bits that where not completely invalidated by watching the entitled rants as it really did look like people are apparently enabling themselves to be operating at less than potential capacity because of the concept of privilege...along the lines of "why even try?".

Starling's Rapist (my name for Schrödinger's Rapist as not only did Schrödinger have nothing to do with it that communicates something different than the intended message if anyone even Googles Schrödinger's Cat and get that he was using the Cat to point-out the absurdity inherent in the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum entanglement.) was even a little bit useful once one dials-out the heavy sarcasm and over-the-top nature of it.

The SJ language is so heavily jargoned, though, that people not already into it have a hard time translating it....hence the "basket of links" for the people suckered-in by the mission statement. I watched the "Education" topic become "Information" as people that were "too tired to explain" were certainly not too tired to yell at people asking questions.
 
Starling's Rapist (my name for Schrödinger's Rapist as not only did Schrödinger have nothing to do with it that

There's an actual name for the general approach to decision making described by "Schrödinger's rapist":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimax

(Of course these overbearingly pretentious people can't get any such thing right.)

Minimax (or maximin) is generally considered to be a paranoid, unreasonable or even hostile approach in real-life decision- and game-theoretic situations. More generally, biology appears to favor something like expected utility, which takes more risks in general, but also opens up more opportunities. Human decision making under risk is similar to EU, with certain aberrations.

Additionally, if conservatives tend to be "defectors" in the Prisoner's Dilemma, taking the maximin choice, liberals are "cooperators". (See here: http://books.google.com/books?id=JZk2x841s2AC&pg=PA128) Accordingly, "Schrödinger's rapist" is incongruous with the general scheme of the liberal approach to life, and certainly few if any people advocating the SR-concept are conservatives.

So, all told, the idea makes little sense.
 
Diogenes makes a fair point about jargon hindering communication, but I've seen many posters at atheismplus routinely define terms when they perceive that the person they're talking do doesn't understand them. I don't see the use of jargon precluding communication. In contrast, I think the majority of people who don't like what is said at atheismplus do understand but just don't agree. The oft-derided link basket is generally offered on top of the relevant explanations.

But how many times do people generally believe that they've experienced some form of prejudice when they actually haven't?

It would have been legitimate for the delivery guy to feel like he'd just encountered racism. That doesn't mean that he did.

Under your theory, to 'encounter' racism, what is required? It sounds like you're solely defining whether someone encounters racism by someone's intent. If the speaker wasn't attempting to be racist, then the listener couldn't have 'encountered racism.' I think that's too narrow a prism.

Instead of a racist effect requiring a racist intent, Crommunist at FTB has argued that intent is independent from effect when it comes to racism. “Accidental” racism and intentional brilliance. In other words, you can have a racist outcome without anyone seeking to bring it about. That's not to say there aren't situations where speech is unreasonably perceived as intentionally bigoted, but it is to say that, in general, examining the actor's intent is not the best place to start.
 
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It sounds like you're solely defining whether someone encounters racism by someone's intent.

No, I was offering a specific example in which intent was the only determining factor.

That's not to say there aren't situations where speech is unreasonably perceived as intentionally bigoted, but it is to say that, in general, examining the actor's intent is generally not the best place to start.

I wouldn't even necessarily say that it was unreasonable of the delivery guy in my example to think that he was encountering racism. I would say that it was perhaps a little over-sensitive but there's no way that I can say that for sure, not knowing the history of the guy in question, and never having lived in the US myself. As I said, I simply can't imagine a comparable conversation happening here in the UK but, in general, it seems that race is less of an issue over here, in any case. Or, at least, the racial differences between white people and black people. People from Southern Asia is a different thing.

In any case, "unreasonably" isn't a word I'd use in this case.
 
...I've seen many posters at atheismplus routinely define terms when they perceive that the person they're talking do doesn't understand them. I don't see the use of jargon precluding communication...

Along with a healthy side of derision and ad hom, though my sample size (about the first 2 months) could be too small.
 
I'm confused by your use of the term "false positives" then.

People believing they have encountered racism where they haven't. Such as would have been the case in the example I gave, had the two people involved not sorted it out to everybody's satisfaction.
 
Instead of a racist effect requiring a racist intent, Crommunist at FTB has argued that intent is independent from effect when it comes to racism. “Accidental” racism and intentional brilliance. In other words, you can have a racist outcome without anyone seeking to bring it about. That's not to say there aren't situations where speech is unreasonably perceived as intentionally bigoted, but it is to say that, in general, examining the actor's intent is not the best place to start.
Qwints, could you interpret this for me, I'm genuinely unsure. Most of the article is interpreting the lyrics of an LL Cool J song. I'm having a hard time unpicking it all. The main thing that struck me was the line about intent being orthogonal to racism. By symmetry, does this also mean that the feelings of the subject of the racism are also orthogonal to the racism?
 
Okay, so you think the delivery person was reasonably mistaken about the nature of the encounter because your friend didn't intend to be racist, right? My point is that your friend's intent doesn't define the delivery persons experience. You can't look to your friend's purported intent and conclude that race didn't affect the interaction.
 
Qwints seems to me that you're putting the cart before the horse.

The interaction is not being defined as not being racist on account of there being no racist intent.

Rather the lack of intent is being implied by race not being a factor in the instigating comment.
 
Okay, so you think the delivery person was reasonably mistaken about the nature of the encounter because your friend didn't intend to be racist, right? My point is that your friend's intent doesn't define the delivery persons experience. You can't look to your friend's purported intent and conclude that race didn't affect the interaction.
But this is a very particular definition of racism, isn't it? Here the racism is somehow being carried around in the brain of the "victim", no? The "racist" could be entirely unaware of the race of the victim, or any of the issues surounding their race and the connotations of the encounter and it wouldn't matter?
 
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