The Second Amendment and the "Right" to Bear Arms

I see this scenario presented over and over like this is an everyday occurrence here in the U.S. Yet I know that realistically the chances of this happening are extremely remote.

I have no problem with someone who wants a gun in the house for protection. I do have a problem with people who seem to give these violent scenarios an inordinate amount of thought.

So you have a problem with someone who actually look into the issue? Really, you feel that for the sake of class someone should remain ignorant of how they can defend themselves?

sounds like you just think guns are icky and are trying to justify that position.
 
i think you're missing the point. Why is it a right in America, while everywhere else in the developed world it is a privilege? What's so special about America that makes gun ownership a right?

I made this tread partially to encourage people to think about this question, which you're not doing. You're justifying the status quo. How about you consider why the status is quo in the first place?


This sort of thing is common in firearm related threads, sadly. Look how this discussion has diverged away from the OP into arguments about what exactly the 2nd Amendment right entails, and whether it should or not.

Perhaps the problem is the positions are so entrenched, both sides are so used to the discussion being framed along a single axis, and so can't engage in discussion that deviates from the norm. Those who wish to preserve the right to arms see any discussion about firearms as an attack on their right, and those opposed to the right to arms see any discussion as an opportunity to express their disapproval of the right.

It's silly really. The Supreme Court has amply addressed the matter of "how it is".

I think a few clues to possible answers are hidden away in this thread though. The US was established on the back of religious persecution in the UK, including limitations on Catholics serving in the military, having arms, and so forth. The US was also a lot "wilder" than Europe, with an ever-expanding fronteir which was effectively lawless, not to mention the threat of native inhabitants, and it was under pressure from surrounding European powers.

It was also founded on the principal of the overthrow of tyranny, and the very idea that government was something to be kept in check.

In these circumstances, I can see where carrying arms for protection in daily life, for many Americans, was probably necessary. And the thing with rights is, once you've been given them (or had them recognised and protected, if you go with the idea that rights are inherent), it's very hard to convince you to relinquish them.
 
My question was "does the second amendment or subsequent SCOTUS decisions specifically preclude anyone from owning a Nuclear Weapon?"

The response was "No". If it was meant to be "yes" just say so.

Norm

I'll take a crack at it....

Do you not feel that when you have to bring in nukes to make a point, that maybe you are really straining to make a point?
...

I think you've got me mixed up with the OP. Someone asked repeatedly did the SA allow you to own a nuclear weapon? No one would directly answer it thus [see highlighted part above].
 
It was my understanding that in the 17th and 18th centuries it was common for gentlemen to wear swords.

I'd be okay with that. Restrict guns, but allow swords for self-defense. *nods*
 
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As I noted farther up thread, CBNR weapons are not suitable for individual defense, nor have they ever been in lawful civilian commerce as machine guns and other NFA weapons and devices were before 1934.

I didn't know if CBRN weapons are specifically banned. (I didn't even know what CBRN weapons were until I looked it up: chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear.) And if I have learned anything on these threads it is, take nothing for granted! :D

So I was thinking if I said, "No you can't possess a nuke," I might be challenged (You have a citation for that newyorkguy? I'll wait.) And sure enough, I couldn't find a citation -but I did find Vin Suprynowicz! :D

I just could not believe it would be legal for anyone --even the federal government -- to offer nuclear weapons for sale.
 
So I was thinking if I said, "No you can't possess a nuke," I might be challenged (You have a citation for that newyorkguy? I'll wait.) And sure enough, I couldn't find a citation -but I did find Vin Suprynowicz! :D

What?
 
I didn't know if CBRN weapons are specifically banned. (I didn't even know what CBRN weapons were until I looked it up: chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear.) And if I have learned anything on these threads it is, take nothing for granted! :D

So I was thinking if I said, "No you can't possess a nuke," I might be challenged (You have a citation for that newyorkguy? I'll wait.) And sure enough, I couldn't find a citation -but I did find Vin Suprynowicz! :D

I just could not believe it would be legal for anyone --even the federal government -- to offer nuclear weapons for sale.

There was a very well known individual that was a SOT licensee that had a great line - Kent always described his Destructive Device manufacturing license as being good for manufacturing everything but the really "fun" stuff - CBN.

Fact is that individuals do own all manner of Destructive Devices under the modifications to the NFA included in the Gun Control Act of 1968 - up until then, live artillery pieces, flamethrowers, mortars, etc. were sold w/o restriction other than the few states that had statutes covering those items.
 
I see this scenario presented over and over like this is an everyday occurrence here in the U.S. Yet I know that realistically the chances of this happening are extremely remote.

I have no problem with someone who wants a gun in the house for protection. I do have a problem with people who seem to give these violent scenarios an inordinate amount of thought.
If you are assuming (and I do not say you are, yet ) that I give this topic an inordinate amount of time you are quite wrong. I have spent far more time writing the answers I put in the gun control threads than I spent in decisions on weapons, deployment of weapons and use of defensive non-weapon things/locations. Those were trivially consumptive of time. Most of the initial work on that was as I was growing up and observing interesting things about people (other than me) where toy and real weapons were involved - and I found out when I was 12 or 13 that I did not fear having a weapon (.22 rifle loaded) aimed at me by an angry person (I have passed on the story - a true one - on a time or two previous so won't repeat the details).

I do not sit/stand around waiting to be attacked, I know what I will do if that happens.
 
So, are you saying that every mom at home should have an AR-15/M16 so that the daddies can go off and play war somewhere else?

Sorry, I am genuinely not sure what you mean here.

Norm?

If the government in 1776 - the ones that developed the Constitution and the US as the US were told about the armament we have, most of it would have been essentially unbelievable to them but I am fairly sure that on hearing about the closest things we have to what they had they would have been extremely interested in having the person telling them supply a large number of those devices and the magazines and rounds to them. For the reason I noted. - It would have made the US undefeatable anywhere. I think we had enough forward thinkers to have gone that way. And you would have had the fun (on the other side) of convincing them that that would be naughty because a low number of persons would misuse them (Of course, if certain attention gaining penalties for such naughty persons became the rule even the insane might take a moment to consider their choice.)
 
There was a very well known individual that was a SOT licensee that had a great line - Kent always described his Destructive Device manufacturing license as being good for manufacturing everything but the really "fun" stuff - CBN.

Fact is that individuals do own all manner of Destructive Devices under the modifications to the NFA included in the Gun Control Act of 1968 - up until then, live artillery pieces, flamethrowers, mortars, etc. were sold w/o restriction other than the few states that had statutes covering those items.

It sounds like we're heading towards, "It IS legal for someone in the U.S. to sell a nuclear weapon and also legal for someone to buy one."

Yike! :eye-poppi
 
The equivalent is putting 6 rounds in a six shooter instead of 5. Many of the early single-actions were dangerous with the hammer down on a live round, so the revolver was carried with the hammer down on an empty spot in the cylinder. Putting the hammer into "half-cocked" position pulls the firing pin away from the bullet, making it safe to carry the pistols with that feature fully loaded but puts the user in danger of "going off half-cocked," meaning that when you pull the trigger nothing happens and you have to correct before proceeding. Could be fatal.

As for citizens with nukes, I'm not personally a signatory to any nuclear treaty. As N.Korea has demonstrated, it is possible to build a nuke with little or no outside help or permission. Pretty expensive, though. I'll probably start my WMD program with germs.
Not a complaint, I remember that - do you, by the by, remember or have otherwise seen the ad for a US made revolver (I have forgotten the brand, but>>>) that said "You can hammer the hammer!" without the gun firing.:D
 
America isn't "special." This isn't about American exceptionalism. The historical reasons why we have this particular right have been given. It's part of our history and culture. I might just as well ask why the rest of the developed world denies this right to their citizens.

I know the thread had moved on from this post, but I must point out that many countries have shameful hangovers from their historical past, including Australia (and the US in regards to slavery and civil rights). Most have consigned these hangovers to the dustbin of history. It's a pity the US hasn't tossed this most dubious "right" to bear arms into the same dustbin.
 
How does this apply to anthrax ?

I'd request you to explain this a little more, because I fail to see the similarities between anthrax on the one hand and child porn on the other hand.

Having anthrax didn't hurt anyone. Seeing a child porn pic didn't hurt anyone.

The wrongful act occurred before. If someone sells anthrax, they should be immediately reported and turned over for trying to spread something used entirely for terrorism. If you found kiddie porn, you need to immediately help stop its perpetuation.

In theory, suppose I was this chemist who wanted to exercise my mind and create and keep anthrax safe in an industrial container I made. Who is going to know unless I give anyone a reason to search my house? It's just a vial of anthrax in my house not doing anything. I'm a responsible owner of anthrax by never exposing it to anyone who could misuse it. I may be someone who wishes to find a counter agent.

The individual selling anthrax or distributing kiddie porn is up to no good. So buying anthrax, regardless of intent, and letting that person go along their way is what's wrong. Not the mere possession of anthrax.

A Wal Mart clerk selling guns is just doing a job. They aren't trying to hurt anyone. So buying a gun isn't in the same league as buying anthrax. It's not contributing to terrorism or child molestation. It just makes that store a couple hundred dollars richer.

If it helps, I'll try another analogy.

I would say buying from a shifty pawn shop is worse than buying a gun from an established business. We know the pawn shop is contributing to theft. The store selling guns is a legit business that has no intent to contribute to societal harm.

In this case, owning a diamond ring from a pawn shop which you know bought the ring from a thief is worse than buying a gun from a local hunting store.

Even though owning a diamond ring should certainly be a right, what isn't a right is knowingly contributing to something immoral.

So in the case of anthrax or kiddie porn, think of it as buying from a shady pawn shop where you knowingly contribute to something immoral and is therefore not a right.

This is why regular firearms can never be placed in the same category as buying military grade weapons, tools used by terrorists, or any of the other extreme killing weapons. They aren't sold and used for the same reason regular guns are.

I want as many things to be considered a right as possible and the only time in which it should no longer be considered a right is when there is no other solution to an existing problem.

The very existence of heavily armed cultures with few gun related issues tells us there is an alternate solution. As far as I know, there is no place on earth that thrives with the legal sale of antrax.


Edit:

Just another random point.

I could argue the ownership of guns belongs in civilized society. I'm not quite sure cause I haven't completely thought this through.

In a world of animals, might makes right. A group of thugs could rape an unarmed woman.

In a world of dignity and civilized culture, only the upstanding female citizen could own a gun and a group of thugs wouldn't be armed and could not use brute force to hurt a woman.

In this way it seems like guns actually belong in a first world culture because responsibility and contributing to society is what grants someone additional power.
 
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The Indians didn't fight? News to me.

I'm not really part of the 'anti weapon crowd', whatever that is. I have a deep fascination with the apparent US love affair with firearms, however, with the above, you hvae missed my point entirely because: Wrong Indians.



You honestly think if they presented no threat whatsoever, the government would have been just as willing to give them anything?

That's exactly what happened. It's called 'peaceful non-co-operation' and it freed a nation.
 
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Not trying to be obtuse, but that's a matter of interpretation. If we want to go with the militia route, what good is being part of a militia if you aren't armed?

Let's just say (bear with me here, I get this is outlandish) a band of North Korean soldiers parachutes into your little town a-la Red Dawn style. You're driving to work or hanging out at the mall...and, crap, you don't have your gun! Whadaya do? Tell the Koreans to hold on a few minutes, cuz you're part of the militia, but you gotta run home to get your gun first?

Point is, a militia member is one that needs to be prepared regardless of locale...not just when he's sitting home watching Jeopardy.

It's a very shaky argument indeed that has to rely on scenarios that edge into the lands of fantasy. Red Dawn was paranoid nonsense in the 1980s, and the new version no less so.

Disagree. The drafters of the Constitution had just overthrown a government that oppressed the Colonies. The new America did not want a government that ran the people, but vice-versa. By allowing citizens to maintain arms, the government never can obtain true power over the people.

Same holds true today.

No it doesn't. A whole lot of factors in the 18th century meant that the ordinary British subjects living in North America (as Nessie has pointed out, it was just a civil war between kith and kin) managed to wear down the regular British military forces with the arms that they had. This was aided by the fact that the population had a higher proportion of individuals with existing skills that transferred well to the type of warfare they engaged in.

Wind forwards two and a half centuries, and there is a massive gulf between what a home-grown militia can do against a modern army. The militia concept now has the equivalence of the retention of swords for ceremonial purposes. It is a symbol that has no real practical purpose, nor it there any real expectation that it would ever have to be used.
 
It's just the same blind dogma. For instance, the whole premise of this thread is why the US developed a culture of firearms, which really ignores their own history. The southern gentleman's rules for responding to questions of honor was adopted almost directly from the Irish Code Duello which gained popularity here from immigrant Irish. The best makers of mass-produced firearm locks for otherwise American muskets were the British. (German and Swiss are considered desirable to a collector simple because they were artisanal works.) Victorian newspapers were full of those quaint "patent revolver" ads. In fact, the revolver was invented and first manufactured by an American - living in London.

You seem to be overlooking the fact that although all those external influences fed into American culture, attitudes in the "source countries" (if we can term them that) changed in a way that those in America didn't. 2A advocates who like to use the UK as some sort of stick to beat their opponents with love to point out that the Amendment has its origins in English law, but they don't much like talking about how the British eventually grew out of it. In many respects, the world moved on, yet America remains strait-jacketed by history.

Oh, and to be picky, the Victorian newspapers featured such adverts (they weren't "full of" them by any means) because they were aimed more at those heading off to the "dangerous" colonies than for those staying at home.
 
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