Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

The real scandal revealed by the Channel 5 documentary really is not any of the specifics....

.... but did the PLE ever actually investigate the murder of Meredith Kercher? I mean, it's six years and three trials later....

The climb in through Filomean's window is a slam dunk for anyone reasonably fit. Granted, Patrick Lumumba is probably NOT capable of doing the climb.... so some slack has to be given to the PLE.... until Guede shows up.

But it IS six years later people, and how on earth can the Kerchers feel confident that the PLE ever even looked into the facts of the murder of their loved one? Please note, I am not blaming them, if I were in their shoes I'd have follow exactly the same path given what I'm told....

But geez Louise, did the PLE ever investigate this crime? Mr. Mignini included Amanda's lamp in his cartoon... showed Amanda carrying it into Meredith's room. One the basis of what evidence did he include it?

Then again, this was never about evidence. It's six years later and the prosecution lawyer in the Documentary looked beaten at the end.

 

[Wildhorses]

What have I made up be specific please. Your post as to the reason for calling Sollecito that night and whether an arrest was coming is just your opinion. I'm sure the police were surprised that Sollecito considered dessert more important than coming in earlier. That is not opinion BTW. I haven't heard about arrests coming on the 5th and don't know who Malkmus is please cite anything that can show where this was the case.

Where to start?

1. You made up the idea that AK and RS HAD a pattern of phone behavior. They’d known each other a week. AK was one of RS’s first romantic relationships. It’s utterly beside the point, but -- if anything -- you’d expect people to do things differently one week into a new relationship.

2. You made up the idea that AK and RS engaged in “unusual” phone behavior by deviating from the pattern of “normal” phone behavior you made up.

3. You made up the idea that telecom companies monitor phone shutoffs and keep records of them. It’s freakin’ absurd. Ask your cell carrier for its record of your phone shutoffs. They’ll think you’re crazypants.

4. You made up the idea that police subpoenaed two telecom companies to get the records of phone shutoffs you made up.

5. You made up the idea police analyzed the records of phone shutoffs you made up, determined the “normal” behavior you made up, and noted the “unusual” behavior you made.

6. You made up the idea RS was called in to respond to the police analysis you made up of the telecom records you made up.

 

[Diocletus]

Does anyone have a list of the top 5 or 10 quotes by the moronic prosecution/investigation team about how "impossible" it is to climb up Filomena's wall? I want to keep them with my collection of quotes about the titanic being "unsinkable", Alcatraz being "inescapable." You know, stuff like that.

 

[Diocletus]

But he never told this. I think you mean Griffin, not Graham; I quoted the Italian snippet that you misunderstood. Mignini never claimed he told (nor shouted) such statement to the police. He did not even enter the room, he was elsewhere, and was told about that after the interrogation was over. He phrases the statement 'Everyone stop! There must be a defense attorney!', to emphasize, to explain Griffin how it works with police interrogation, but he does NOT attribute the statementto himself. You are basically just getting the subject (the speaker) wrong! He is NOT saying that HE told that statement.
And he also says clearly that he was not there during Knox interrogation; when he entered the room and saw Knox first, the interrogation was already over; this means after the minutes had been already signed; and he describes in fact Knox already appearing relieved, with nobody interogating her any more.

Oh. So migini is saying that that's how it should have worked, but leaving out the fact that he decided that it would actually work some other way.

In other words, he was lying to the interviewer.

 

[Briars]

Where to start?

1. You made up the idea that AK and RS HAD a pattern of phone behavior. They’d known each other a week. AK was one of RS’s first romantic relationships. It’s utterly beside the point, but -- if anything -- you’d expect people to do things differently one week into a new relationship.

2. You made up the idea that AK and RS engaged in “unusual” phone behavior by deviating from the pattern of “normal” phone behavior you made up.

3. You made up the idea that telecom companies monitor phone shutoffs and keep records of them. It’s freakin’ absurd. Ask your cell carrier for its record of your phone shutoffs. They’ll think you’re crazypants.

4. You made up the idea that police subpoenaed two telecom companies to get the records of phone shutoffs you made up.

5. You made up the idea police analyzed the records of phone shutoffs you made up, determined the “normal” behavior you made up, and noted the “unusual” behavior you made.

6. You made up the idea RS was called in to respond to the police analysis you made up of the telecom records you made up.

The point is the police were interested in the lack of phone and web search activity which was not their usual pattern . Amanda said she switched off her phone after Patrick's call. Confronted with the evidence on the 5th Sollecito told them Amanda went out. He wrote to his father after the 5th that he had told a pack of lies about Amanda ,written when he was under no pressure..

 

[Briars]

Where to start?

1. You made up the idea that AK and RS HAD a pattern of phone behavior. They’d known each other a week. AK was one of RS’s first romantic relationships. It’s utterly beside the point, but -- if anything -- you’d expect people to do things differently one week into a new relationship.

2. You made up the idea that AK and RS engaged in “unusual” phone behavior by deviating from the pattern of “normal” phone behavior you made up.

3. You made up the idea that telecom companies monitor phone shutoffs and keep records of them. It’s freakin’ absurd. Ask your cell carrier for its record of your phone shutoffs. They’ll think you’re crazypants.

4. You made up the idea that police subpoenaed two telecom companies to get the records of phone shutoffs you made up.

5. You made up the idea police analyzed the records of phone shutoffs you made up, determined the “normal” behavior you made up, and noted the “unusual” behavior you made.

6. You made up the idea RS was called in to respond to the police analysis you made up of the telecom records you made up.

Does anyone have a list of the top 5 or 10 quotes by the moronic prosecution/investigation team about how "impossible" it is to climb up Filomena's wall? I want to keep them with my collection of quotes about the titanic being "unsinkable", Alcatraz being "inescapable." You know, stuff like that.

To be fair I haven't seen the Chanel 5 show, but the height of the climb wasn't the major obstacle.Did he address the large rock or the shutters? Did he recreate the wet ground conditions with his shoes before climbing. I see the photo shows new bars he held onto. Removing glass and entering with no cuts or debris still needs to be demonstrated,even with an expert climber. What also needs to be considered too is that the staging could involve a toss from outside from the raised area across from the window, That could also explain the lack of evidence because there was no climb.

 

[Supernaut]

The point is the police were interested in the lack of phone and web search activity which was not their usual pattern . Amanda said she switched off her phone after Patrick's call. Confronted with the evidence on the 5th Sollecito told them Amanda went out. He wrote to his father after the 5th that he had told a pack of lies about Amanda ,written when he was under no pressure..

An amazing number of bald assertions in a single paragraph.

Now, document them.

 

[Bill Williams]

The point is the police were interested in the lack of phone and web search activity which was not their usual pattern . Amanda said she switched off her phone after Patrick's call. Confronted with the evidence on the 5th Sollecito told them Amanda went out. He wrote to his father after the 5th that he had told a pack of lies about Amanda ,written when he was under no pressure..

An amazing number of bald assertions in a single paragraph.

Now, document them.

Briars.... it's rather incredible that you keep repeating this business of "usual pattern" for two people who knew each other about a week.

Could you do us all a kindness and address this issue before proceeding.

 

[Supernaut]

To be fair I haven't seen the Chanel 5 show, but the height of the climb wasn't the major obstacle.Did he address the large rock or the shutters? Did he recreate the wet ground conditions with his shoes before climbing. I see the photo shows new bars he held onto. Removing glass and entering with no cuts or debris still needs to be demonstrated,even with an expert climber. What also needs to be considered too is that the staging could involve a toss from outside from the raised area across from the window, That could also explain the lack of evidence because there was no climb.

Let me try to format your BS for you;

To be fair I haven't seen the Chanel 5 show, but the height of the climb wasn't the major obstacle.

Did he address the large rock or the shutters? [what?]
Did he recreate the wet ground conditions with his shoes before climbing. [missing question-mark].
I see the photo shows new bars he held onto [what?].

Removing glass and entering with no cuts or debris still needs to be demonstrated,even with an expert climber. [what?]
What also needs to be considered too is that the staging could involve a toss from outside from the raised area across from the window, That could also explain the lack of evidence because there was no climb [this I can't re-compile into intelligible prose, no matter how I parse it].

 

[Bill Williams]

To be fair I haven't seen the Chanel 5 show, but the height of the climb wasn't the major obstacle.Did he address the large rock or the shutters? Did he recreate the wet ground conditions with his shoes before climbing. I see the photo shows new bars he held onto. Removing glass and entering with no cuts or debris still needs to be demonstrated,even with an expert climber. What also needs to be considered too is that the staging could involve a toss from outside from the raised area across from the window, That could also explain the lack of evidence because there was no climb.

The fellow who does the climb takes about two or three steps under the window, and whoosh, he's up. You should watch.

Also, you need to supply some proof of your assertion that the ground was in wet condition.... as far as I know there IS no forensic indication of that, except for comments made by police at the time. Most certainly the initial reason for not investigating what you claim (wet ground) is that no one initially could believe Lumumba, Knox or Sollecito could have done the climb to begin with.

Is there anything other than evidence-less assertions here?

 

[Bill Williams]

The point is the police were interested in the lack of phone and web search activity which was not their usual pattern . Amanda said she switched off her phone after Patrick's call. Confronted with the evidence on the 5th Sollecito told them Amanda went out. He wrote to his father after the 5th that he had told a pack of lies about Amanda ,written when he was under no pressure..

I apologize, Briars. I snorted my dinner through my noise when I read the highlighted part.

"Under no pressure"? You're kidding, right?

 

[Briars]

Briars.... it's rather incredible that you keep repeating this business of "usual pattern" for two people who knew each other about a week.

Could you do us all a kindness and address this issue before proceeding.

They switched off their phones .Amanda said she was worried she might be called back by Lumumba.There was no computer activity , that is no pages opened no activity till very early morning.

 

[Bill Williams]

To be fair I haven't seen the Chanel 5 show, but the height of the climb wasn't the major obstacle.Did he address the large rock or the shutters? Did he recreate the wet ground conditions with his shoes before climbing. I see the photo shows new bars he held onto. Removing glass and entering with no cuts or debris still needs to be demonstrated,even with an expert climber. What also needs to be considered too is that the staging could involve a toss from outside from the raised area across from the window, That could also explain the lack of evidence because there was no climb.

The lack of evidence is also explained by the fact that the PLE did not gather evidence related either to the climb or to the break-in, or to the scene inside Filomena's room.

Imagine this. I accuse you of robbing a bank. You say, "But I was at home the whole time." I say, "No you weren't there is no evidence that you were at home."

You say, "That's because you never once actually investigated if I was at home or not - you cannot NOW say there is no evidence. You just didn't gather it!"

 

[Bill Williams]

Briars.... it's rather incredible that you keep repeating this business of "usual pattern" for two people who knew each other about a week.

Could you do us all a kindness and address this issue before proceeding.

They switched off their phones .Amanda said she was worried she might be called back by Lumumba.There was no computer activity , that is no pages opened no activity till very early morning.

And this addresses the "usual pattern" claim you make...... how?

I respectfully ask that you explain the justification of the use of "usual pattern" or respectfully ask you refrain from using the phrase. And THEN we can get to the other evidenceless assertions....

 

[Briars]

I apologize, Briars. I snorted my dinner through my noise when I read the highlighted part.

"Under no pressure"? You're kidding, right?

blow your nose and tell me why he felt he needed to write his father this "lie" what would make him tell dad about his Sacco of lies.

 

[Bill Williams]

Does anyone have a list of the top 5 or 10 quotes by the moronic prosecution/investigation team about how "impossible" it is to climb up Filomena's wall? I want to keep them with my collection of quotes about the titanic being "unsinkable", Alcatraz being "inescapable." You know, stuff like that.

In fairness - whereas Mignini presented the impossibility of the climb before the previous courts (to secure Amanda's and Raffaele's incarceration) - AFAIK Mignini never presented it that way to the Massei court. It's why, I believe, that Massei found it as factual that the climb was very doable, it's just that Massei tried to argue that Guede would not have done it three times.

If Guede HAD done it three times, then even the Massei court would then have had to have agreed that Guede could have got in that way - apparently just as easily as you or me would slip a key in the front door lock.

The PLE can be forgiven for not investigating the climb while Lumumba was still in the picture and Guede was unknown.

What is criminal is that it's been 6 years (almost) that Guede has been known, and it takes a British film crew to do the test.

 

[Dan O.]

To be fair I haven't seen the Chanel 5 show, but the height of the climb wasn't the major obstacle.Did he address the large rock or the shutters? Did he recreate the wet ground conditions with his shoes before climbing. I see the photo shows new bars he held onto.

Oh boy, it never stops raining.

What is your specific claim about the large rock?
What is your specific claim about the shutters?
What is your evidence that the ground was in fact wet at the time and that it would be necessary for someone to walk through the wet ground in order to assend to the window and that if someone had walked through this wet ground that it would leave a trace on the wall and that if there was a trace on the wall left by someone walking through the wet ground before scaling the wall that the investigators would have seen it?
What is your evidence that the new bars were used in making the assent?

 

[Bill Williams]

I apologize, Briars. I snorted my dinner through my noise when I read the highlighted part.

"Under no pressure"? You're kidding, right?

blow your nose and tell me why he felt he needed to write his father this "lie" what would make him tell dad about his Sacco of lies.

Apologies Briars. I obviously was not clear. I was reacting to your claim that Sollecito was "under no pressure" when he wrote the "pack of lies" thing. I would respectfully ask you to explain in what way, shape, or form someone who's just been arrested for murder is not "under pressure"?

C'mon dude.... you've made some weird assertions... sorry but you have. "Usual pattern" for two people who've known each other a week, and now "under no pressure" for someone flailing around to try to explain why he's not guilty of murder.

You're funning me, right?

 

[Bill Williams]

Oh boy, it never stops raining.

What is your specific claim about the large rock?
What is your specific claim about the shutters?
What is your evidence that the ground was in fact wet at the time and that it would be necessary for someone to walk through the wet ground in order to assend to the window and that if someone had walked through this wet ground that it would leave a trace on the wall and that if there was a trace on the wall left by someone walking through the wet ground before scaling the wall that the investigators would have seen it?
What is your evidence that the new bars were used in making the assent?

The new bars WERE used in the assent. What's troubling is that Briars says this, though, while at the same time saying he'd not seen the Channel 5 documentary. The lawyer actually asks the feloow who'd made the climb, while he was still there sitting on the outer sill of Filomena's window, to speculate about this very thing.

The man says in his opinion the bars were not necessary, if there'd been other things to hold on to. Like shutters or what have you. Can we concede his is an "expert opinion" given that he's giving his testimony on Filomena's outer sill?

 

[Dan O.]

The new bars WERE used in the assent. What's troubling is that Briars says this, though, while at the same time saying he'd not seen the Channel 5 documentary. The lawyer actually asks the feloow who'd made the climb, while he was still there sitting on the outer sill of Filomena's window, to speculate about this very thing.

The man says in his opinion the bars were not necessary, if there'd been other things to hold on to. Like shutters or what have you. Can we concede his is an "expert opinion" given that he's giving his testimony on Filomena's outer sill?

What I would like to know is why he found it necessary to climb onto the sill before opening the window. Granted, they couldn't throw a rock through that window with the bars in place but they could have inserted a simulation of the broken window to show that the latch was in fact reachable while standing on the lower window grate.