Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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More than one poster seemed to be in agreement with by RoseMontague on this:

I have seen statements from Mignini claiming he told the cops to stop questioning.

I suspect that those who understood something like that, they were misunderstanding this bit from the Griffin interview:

Mignini: (....) E allora sono andato giù e il dirigente della mobile mi ha raccontato cosa è successo. E a un certo punto ci informano che Amanda aveva fatto questa dichiarazione aveva. E quindi l’interrogatorio come persona informata sui fatti è stato sospeso dalla polizia in applicazione dell’art. 63 del c.p.p. perché se emerge un indizio di reato la persona che io sento come persona informata sui fatti non può più essere sentita; bisogna fermarsi. ‘Fermi tutti ci deve essere il difensore’. E quindi la polizia si è fermata e ha informato l’Amanda che si era in pratica collocata nel luogo del delitto e aveva detto di aver accompagnato lei Lumumba, di averlo fatto entrare. Lumumba poi, nell’altra stanza, avrebbe compiuto l’atto sessuale e avrebbe ucciso Meredith. Questo è quello che ha detto.
2’11’’ Allora io vengo chiamato, vengo informato di questo, vado da Amanda che mi ricordo che era come, mi apparve, io me la ricordo molto, mi è rimasta impressa, io me la ricordo dunque, due aspetti che mi colpirono in quel momento di Amanda: (....)
 
Exactly, Guede can mention blood and should because he was there and saw it.Why would Amanda have a memory of blood on Sollecito's hands and need to write about it?Why would she also wonder what Meredith's last thoughts were as her life slowly left her?. I can't remember whether that was a diary entry but it is a strange thought.

Hummm not all that strange IMO. I have often thought that at least Meredith had the movie The Notebook in her mind. A great movie about love and devotion and in the end death. I would wonder what she felt as life left her body but I have some experience with death and the analysis of it since I was a pathologist assistant in the military.

So you agree that Guede should mention blood because he was there but since AK mentions fish blood in a sort of dream sequence...then she must be the killer also right? (or did she kill a fish?)

I don't find that "evidence" convincing. In fact I don't find the idea to be anything but wildly speculated confirmation bias. Sorry.
 
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No JREF2010, the calunnia of which she has been convicted on three levels was committed on the night of the 5th-6th when she falsely accused Patrik and it would not have happened had she received professional advice as was her right under Article 104 para 1.

Besides that I disagree that that was her right (given the definition of "exceptional grounds for caution" by the SC which I found), there is also the fact that before she named Lumumba (that is before 01:45) she was still a person informed about facts, not a formal suspect, hence there was no art. 104 § 1.
The art. 104 applies only to those who have already serious evidence against them and who are already under arrest.
 
More than one poster seemed to be in agreement with by RoseMontague on this:



I suspect that those who understood something like that, they were misunderstanding this bit from the Griffin interview:

I am so glad that you are reading the Griffin interview. You will find that Mr. Mignini gives a very different accounting of it than he is currently feeding to Ms. Vogt.
 
I would like to read it too, but I don't have the transcripts of all hearings from the appeal trial.
The ordnance was read on one of the first two hearings, as the court decided on the reasons of appeal.
The Hellmann-Zanetti accepted only the tests required at point II letter A, while rejected the other five requests of point II, but I think that on those they reserved the possibility to change their mind.
They court also accepted points III and IV.

But they rejected points I , V , VI, VII, VIII. The instance about the lack of document motivating reasons for delay counsel was point V. On these points, Hellmann could not keep any reservation, because they are points of nullity, so they are preliminary, their rejection is definitive.
All points claiming consequence for procedure violations were rejected. This includes the objection related to application of art. 104 § 4.

It would be nice to have the transcript where Hellmann reads these technicalities. I don't have it; but it doesn't matter to our conclusion because the rejection is just obvious. Rejection of those points is just obvious as the fact that the requests were denied and there was no consequence on the proceedings.

Interesting that you know the details about point V, but cant find a transcript. How exactly does one determine what was in iii,iv,or v then?

But I agree you are likely correct. Hellmann was a corrupt dog too. He understood that the whole case was bogus... even grossly bogus but he revealed his hand when he upheld the calunnia conviction going so far as to first state that the statement came from extreme illegal duress but then in complete contradiction to that he keeps that conviction and oddly adds jail time...which was his mistake. Here he reveals that he intends to try to save Italy some money by putting up a blockade so that Knox can not sue for wrongful detention.

And later in interviews he gives the prosecution its out to save face by stating that he understood why the prosecution brought this case but that they did not have the evidence to prove it. And as thanks for trying to save Italy from total embarrassment they vilified Hellmann and appealed on completely illogical grounds.

Now Italy will be outed to the world for this mafia like judiciary. Look even England is doing investigation into the case...It was only a matter of time until someone started to add up all the crazy speculation in this case and to cry foul.

Too bad they dont investigate the missing motovation document Mignini was suppose to file with the court...or the failure to record this one night and morning of interrogation, or the fact that 4 relevant computer were destroyed by police, or that the scientific investigator lied in court about the quantification of a certain sample "B"...or that scientific data required by discovery rules has been willfully withheld...or that Mignini files sub-related cases against lawyers, defendants, their families, reporter, newspapers, Google, bloggers...enough of a pattern to show clearly that the man is abusing his office and position in an effort to make his side look better....but it is not enough...it will never be enough to hide all his sins...the world will see it all now.

Good!
 
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Not sure which tabloid he wrote for but it is indeed very interesting. I just posted at IIP that the media line may be very different this time. Amanda is now visible to viewers. She cannot be demonised so easily. At the same time she is very photogenic and should be much in demand for interviews. There is a much bigger story of prosecutorial corruption and incompetence which may play very well. I sense the guilters get this as they go into overdrive trying to swamp the internet and create the false impression there's more than a handful of these obsessive nutters.

I thought Kercher wrote for the Daily Mail?
 
Just to be clear - what I meant was why you even started posting about being able to discern from Knox's writings that she was immune from fatigue related to lack of sleep.

To refresh your memory, this had to do with your claim that Knox was ready and refreshed on the late evening of Nov 5th to implement her plan to deceive the PLE at interrogation.

(...)

Ergo - you claimed that Amanda Knox did not need sleep, that she could simply choose to remain awake, therefore she was lucid and in control during the interrogation.

Do you still stand by this? (I can hear the "yes buts", and "you're taking this out of context" already.

My quotes are quite clear.
The problem is with your choice of words, which re-defines the question:
"immune from fatigue related to lack of sleep". This is something else, it's not something I would say. I would never use the word "immune" and I would never state "refreshed and ready".
Your choice of words carries a reversal of logical value, or a reversal of logical proof. I'ts like as if, I write "It's not white", and you parse what I say attributing me the statement "It's black".
Instead from looking at what I say, you build an interpretation which you build up yoursel which is based on a totally different concept, maybe from a logical opposite.

I never considered the idea that somebody is "immune", this is an absolute word, unrealistic and thus a nonsense (at least, its Italian translation is so). Also the word "refreshed" expresses an extreme on the other side. Even the idea that one does "not need" sleep is out of the scope of my reasoning.
All these are words which express the extreme logical value somehow opposite to your theory. But I never claim these extreme contraries.
I would never entertain the thought tha Knox was "immune from sleep deprivation" because - apart from the unrealistic semantics - that is just irrelevant. It has no relevance nor logical consequence at all whether Knox "needed sleep" or was "refreshed". What matters - in logic, and responsability - lies at the opposite side of the spectrum. Generic instances of "need for sleep" are totally irrelevant. The only question that could make some sense (yet, only in the abstract) is, whether sleep deprivation would be so severe to cause her a picture of major psichiatric or cognitive disturb/symptoms, to the point of interfering with her ability to understand and will.

In fact it is obvious that it was not so. A generic question about sleep deprivation could be put about her interrogators: the police and the prosecutor were as much sleep deprived as her. Mignini was awake since 7am of the 5th and had slept only a few hours, though he did not sleep a minute and went to the police where he worked all night, he discussed with detecvites, collected statements, wrote decrees and issued written orders, so he remained awake continuously for 30+ hours to say the least (and he had only few hours sleep the previous night). The same goes for several of the detectives, such as Profazio and Napoleoni.
But did this sleep deprivation make them uncapable to operate, understand and decide? Obviously not. We are not talking about *this* kind of sleep deprivation.
 
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Exactly, Guede can mention blood and should because he was there and saw it.Why would Amanda have a memory of blood on Sollecito's hands and need to write about it?Why would she also wonder what Meredith's last thoughts were as her life slowly left her?. I can't remember whether that was a diary entry but it is a strange thought.

The problem with AK's comments and writings being published without context is... we don't know the context.

If she'd written about, say, umbrellas, one might have reason to accuse her of weird associations. But blood? We do NOT know what kind of questions she was asked, but it's not remotely a leap to suspect she was grilled to high heavens over blood. Clueless kid that she was, she obliged by reporting irrelevant info about dinner gore.

Nevertheless, not knowing means NOT KNOWING. The truckload of info released out-of-context and/or poorly translated is fertile ground for connecting dots with weird speculations. But it's irrational. The amazing way little details are embroidered with speculation and put forth as incriminating only show how weak the REAL EVIDENCE is.

FYI: I've never murdered anyone, yet I'm guilty of giving thought to Meredith's last moments.
 
Wow, just wow©. A lot of guilter myths are falling.

I suppose that's good, but I worry about blowback. Seems to me the Italian judicial ego is nothing to mess with.

Ever read "Lilly's Purple Purse?" I believe it holds the copyright on "Wow, just wow."
 
My quotes are quite clear.

snip

Dont worry too much about Bills use or misuse of the quote mark...just search out the lashing Grinder gave him for doing the very same thing. Bill is quite crafty though...he may just be doing it to get a rise out of you.
 
My quotes are quite clear.
The problem is with your choice of words, which re-defines the question:
"immune from fatigue related to lack of sleep". This is something else, it's not something I would say. I would never use the word "immune" and I would never state "refreshed and ready".
Your choice of words carries a reversal of logical value, or a reversal of logical proof. I'ts like as if, I write "It's not white", and you parse what I say attributing me the statement "It's black".
Instead from looking at what I say, you build an interpretation which you build up yoursel which is based on a totally different concept, maybe from a logical opposite.

I never considered the idea that somebody is "immune", this is an absolute word, unrealistic and thus a nonsense (at least, its Italian translation is so). Also the word "refreshed" expresses an extreme on the other side. Even the idea that one does "not need" sleep is out of the scope of my reasoning.
All these are words which express the extreme logical value somehow opposite to your theory. But I never claim these extreme contraries.
I would never entertain the thought tha Knox was "immune from sleep deprivation" because - apart from the unrealistic semantics - that is just irrelevant. It has no relevance nor logical consequence at all whether Knox "needed sleep" or was "refreshed". What matters - in logic, and responsability - lies at the opposite side of the spectrum. Generic instances of "need for sleep" are totally irrelevant. The only question that could make some sense (yet, only in the abstract) is, whether sleep deprivation would be so severe to cause her a picture of major psichiatric or cognitive disturb/symptoms, to the point of interfering with her ability to understand and will.

In fact it is obvious that it was not so. A generic question about sleep deprivation could be put about her interrogators: the police and the prosecutor were as much sleep deprived as her. Mignini was awake since 7am of the 5th and had slept only a few hours, though he did not sleep a minute and went to the police where he worked all night, he discussed with detecvites, collected statements, wrote decrees and issued written orders, so he remained awake continuously for 30+ hours to say the least (and he had only few hours sleep the previous night). The same goes for several of the detectives, such as Profazio and Napoleoni.
But did this sleep deprivation make them uncapable to operate, understand and decide? Obviously not. We are not talking about *this* kind of sleep deprivation.

Did it really take all that to say this?

You obviously do not know what you're talking about.

What Mignini, Napoleoni, and the rest needed to do was take Marco Chiacchiera's advice and sleep on it. NO ONE was operating at full capacity, and here we are almost 6 years later still dealing with the mess Mignini made.
 
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It is such a joke to read Machiavelli's posts. Clearly Mach is a smart guy. That said, he is twisting himself in knots defending the indefensible. There is no excuse for the Perugian authorities to deny Amanda and Raffaele counsel. NONE. He talks about mountain of evidence that Amanda was "strangely" attracted to Meredith and somehow this lesbian attraction led to this horrible murder.

Never mind for a second that there is ZERO evidence of this lesbian attraction by Amanda, there is no correlation between sexual advances between woman to violent murder. I hate to write about this in this way as it might lend credence to some people that their could have been something between Amanda and Meredith.

But I think it is extremely important for people to understand that sexual exploration is not something abnormal or perverse and it is wrong to portray it that way.

So not only is there no evidence that Amanda was interested in Meredith sexually there is no evidence that would make any difference.
 
sound is mentioned, maybe the "scream" ToD will be studied, which the prosecution didnt feel the need to do.

I understand the believers in 11-11:30pm ToD like to have faith in the testimony of the tow truck driver who made a testimony of being done by 11:15pm.

But the people calling for the repairman, said it was later, Allessandra Formica supports these people which pushes the scene to be ending 11:35-11:40.

Both claims are based off the time the call was initiated.

But the cell phone data is not known apparently, the call log of the broken down car person would show when this occurred, if it was later, then the Tow Truck drivers testimony would be wrong....

this would mean another failure for the 11-11:30pm scream ToD, the ISC seems to support.

I would be amazed if the decibels to penetrate through double pane glass wouldnt carry to the open basketball court which has a clear path to Toto.
A sound test would be interesting if this show goes that far.
I doubt it will.
.
Another missing phone record. Besides the time of the call, it will be very interesting to see what telephone number made the phone call to the mechanic. The mechanic's telephone records should provide that information.
.
 
More than one poster seemed to be in agreement with by RoseMontague on this:

I suspect that those who understood something like that, they were misunderstanding this bit from the Griffin interview:

Could be, Mach. If I remembered it wrong I am sorry. What did he say in the Seattle TV documentary?
 
But they rejected points I , V , VI, VII, VIII. The instance about the lack of document motivating reasons for delay counsel was point V. On these points, Hellmann could not keep any reservation, because they are points of nullity, so they are preliminary, their rejection is definitive.
All points claiming consequence for procedure violations were rejected. This includes the objection related to application of art. 104 § 4.

But it's worth remembering that, as you say, the defence were arguing there should be major consequences for the violations - that the pre-trial detention order be revoked, for example - and so when the judges ruled on the defence objections, they weren't only considering whether the violations did actually occur, but also on whether the results of those violations should be those for which the defence were arguing.

The question of whether the documents exist is a straightforward one: either they were filed or they weren't; either the defence received copies at the appropriate time or they didn't. The question of what the consequences should be for those violations is a more complicated one. It seems to me much more likely that the judges disagreed on the latter point than on the basic factual question of whether the documents were there at all, something which could be very easily checked.
 
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