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Tony Szamboti Publishes a Technical Paper about 9/11 Truth

This is how it worked. The core did resist for a split second. However this was defeated by the fact these extreme lateral pneumatic forces happened very quickly and broke the core columns almost immediately with the collapse of the top section.

The split second resistance of the core caused the force to shift to the unsupported floor pads as science requires when force follows the path of least resistance. This was enough force to initiate the violent lateral pneumatic air blasts capable of buckling the core columns.

Each tower had enough mass in each top section to meet the threshold of initiating this process. So, in other words, the 12 storeys of the North Tower's top section was enough mass to cause an air blast capable of breaking the core columns laterally in the first impacted floors.

What demolition advocates fail to grasp is there was just enough heat and impact damage in the drop area to aid this process and reduce resistance. All you needed was for the first impacted floor to produce a lateral pneumatic blast strong enough to break the core columns and the rest was automatic in a runaway floor collapse as each floor followed suit.

This is not at all difficult to understand and happens in a fluid 3 dimensional manner where downward force is converted to lateral force by the collapsing floor pads. These individual "cycles" each break the core columns on that floor which then in turn allows the next cycle to occur on the floor below. If you have a more complex understanding you would realize this happens so fast that it is similar to an explosion. The surface area of the top section mass falling through the narrowed floor void channel would be compensated by an increase in acceleration to accommodate force.

What is happening here is like that game where the balls are all hanging on strings touching each other. When you pull the end ball up and let it go the ball on the other end shoots out. This is a transfer of force through the touching balls. The same thing happens with the air pressure pushing the floor pads downward. When you compress air enough it would 'touch' on a lower order scale and that's why you see the floors drop faster than the main collapse. It is also a force that is strong enough to break the columns when directed laterally and in a manner those core columns were not designed to resist.

Your engineering degree seems to be from Google U.

Where do you Internet 911 truth experts in all things woo come up with this?
as science requires when force follows the path of least resistance

Is this why bullets miss me and go around me in the path of least resistance, the air? In 911 truth world of woo-science, cars can't hit each other since the path of least resistance is missing the other car.

What about Tony's missing jolt, now called smoothness. What do you have in reference to Tony's paper? Did you read Tony's paper?
 
I think I read that there were 400+ mph winds being created by the 95% air-by-volume buildings' collapses. Is that enough to weaken the columns? I don't know but it would not surprise me, since wind in very powerful tornadoes are in the 180-200 mph range.
 
...I disagree with ozeco...
You are welcome to disagree provided your reasoning is sound. It isn't. I was pleased to see you trying to think through the issues and so as to not discourage you I was diplomatic:

I said "I doubt that." when I could have simply said "You are wrong."

I said "I'm not comfortable with some of your details and explanation but let that pass for now,..." When I could have said "your explanations are crazy." I didn't and the hint to keep trying should have been strong enough when I said "Your core claim is on target."

I can still help you to understand the physics - if you are willing to discuss and learn.

So I'll take off the kid gloves of diplomacy where your most recent post says:
...postulate that the physical form of the forces we are talking about came down to a huge ramming tonnage of debris that lay on top of a clean steel floor pad face for each split second that it impacted each new floor. This intense piston created forces so strong that when its pneumatic blast shot outward towards the inner core it blew it away and broke it apart.
That is simply not true. And I already offered you the key reason. You are considering two aspects. 1) The descending physical mass of debris AND 2) the body of compressed air that the descending mass has created and which proceeds ahead of the mass of debris.

Now pause there, stop throwing out words and think. The air is going near enough the same speed as the debris mass. No way can the "bow wave" of air exert the same impact force as the solid bits of debris. That should be obvious even though I am so far only responding to your statement.

Now feed in the big bit of explanation you are not considering. We know how the debris mass reacted with the OOS floors and how the falling top part of tower impacted with the core. In both those areas a falling solid mass either "Top Block" structure or debris struck the horizontal beams of the core or floors/floor joists of the OOS. That falling impact was several times large enough to shear off the beams in core and joists in OOS.

And the air pressure pulse was - must have been - at least one order of magnitude smaller the falling debris impact.
So stop, take a deep breath and count to ten and rethink. I am trying to assist you and I am not likely to get this sort of physics wrong. So if you want to show me that I am wrong you will need strong arguments not just personal incredulity.

As I said it is great to see you thinking. And the core of your claim is pointing in the right direction. Not bad going. So let's get the next steps back on track.

A word of advice about the next bit:
...You see Szamboti uses a 2 dimensional static model that relies solely on vertical static resistance.
No need to try to prove Tony wrong - he does a great job on that by himself. BUT let's be clear. he does not use a 2 dimensional static model. He uses one D plus dynamic -- i.e. 1D plus time therefore 2D if you count time as a dimension. Tony's models have only one"physical" dimension. That is one of the two main reasons he gets most things wrong. He is wrong but not for the reason you claim. And it is irrelevant to understanding the collapse whether Tony was right or wrong. The collapse happened and it makes no difference what T Sz or NIST or Bazant or ozeco41 says years later. What happened actually happened. I have (in serious fun) blamed Santa's custard for causing the WTC collapses. That is stupid. It didn't. BUT the same goes for any claims, reports or papers. History happened and false claims don't change history.

So get to understand about the falling material - initially a structure of "Top Tower" - progressively turning into debris from break up.

Your next bit is fantasy:
...However the pneumatic air blasts we are talking about would be focused most intensely on the outer ring of inner core columns in a lateral manner the core columns were not designed for.
Then this next bit is true but irrelevant because it didn't happen that way:
...The core columns were very strong vertically however they were vulnerable horizontally and were not designed to resist intense air blast explosions hitting them from the sides.
and now you drift into ambiguity/unclear definitions.
... This would quickly disconnect the trusses from their thin seats and instigate a rapid runaway floor collapse progression as was seen in the videos.
When you have difficulty with thinking clearly try coming at it from the other direction. So ask "What did the falling mass of debris do? How could it stand aside and not get involved whilst my compressed air did the damage?

Are you saying that the falling mass of debris would not sever the joist connectors?

If you are not meaning that then you must be saying that the air blast was strong enough to shatter the joist connectors immediately before the falling debris struck. It should be obvious why that it not true. But the physics is harder to explain.

You got off to a good start. Don't abandon it.
...It's not too difficult to understand.
TRUE
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... It's also backed by the evidence.
FALSE.
nono.gif


Keep going forward. Ignore the noise from the sideline. :teacher:
 
I think I read that there were 400+ mph winds being created by the 95% air-by-volume buildings' collapses. Is that enough to weaken the columns? I don't know but it would not surprise me, since wind in very powerful tornadoes are in the 180-200 mph range.
The physics is orders of magnitude out Chris.

Winds in the 180-200 range create pressures in the order of 100-200 pounds per square foot - see the table that Sander linked at post #2028. Those forces result when a building is exposed to a wind of that velocity. (Actually they are "play safe" assumed forces for designing buildings that are safe - so could have a safety margin built in.) The 400mph ejection velocity isn't the velocity OR resultant pressure that Jetblast is attributing failure to. Don't get confused. :confused: The ejection velocity is the speed of air out of a focussed orifice. And those orifices quite limited in area. So the pressure acting on the floors is the pressure needed to produce ~2-3-400 mph velocity through the hole of the escape. And it is probably coming along accessible corridors from some of the available vertical plenums--the elevator shafts being obvious candidates. IIRC femr2 et al over on 911Forum have shown that is the likely path. (I haven't checked but am relying on memory. 2013-1941 problems may intrude :o) (And those preceding bits of "guestimation" are pseudo static. The situation was dynamic with very high speeds involved so there is another layer of complexity we need to remember. I think we are on the "safe side" but....)

So far that is the simple core explanation.

Then try putting it together in an hypothesis such as Jetblast has attempted and - put simply again - it wont add up easily.

The real bottom line is that there is a ruddy great mass of solid bits of structure and debris falling pushing air ahead of it. there can be large quantities of air down the core elevator shafts spurting out of broken window orifices where corridors from the core provide a conduit. BUT the "floor above" is protecting the "floor below" from much of the pressure until the "floor above" fails. So only whatever - 100 msec - for the pressure to build up over the OOS. And nothing horizontal in the core for it to act on. Sure there will be some sideways pressure effects as Jetblast has described but....is there enough??? Doubtful.

I'll stop there. It is as good as I can do straight off the top of my head. Comments welcomed.
 
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...Is this why bullets miss me and go around me in the path of least resistance, the air? In 911 truth world of woo-science, cars can't hit each other since the path of least resistance is missing the other car.
I like those examples of 'path of least resistance". We should be able to use them to save MVA's - a positive community benefit out of trutherdom. Who would have believed it. Then we could also see aerodynamic exploits by members of the family suidae

BUT recognise that Jetblast is trying to think through the issues. In that he is way ahead of others I could name. So I'm prepared to give him a bit of leeway. If he turns it into a bit of rope....it's his choice. ;)
 
I think I read that there were 400+ mph winds being created by the 95% air-by-volume buildings' collapses. Is that enough to weaken the columns? I don't know but it would not surprise me, since wind in very powerful tornadoes are in the 180-200 mph range.

In one of his later papers, Bazant calculates the speed of expelled air near the bottom and posits explosive sounds.
 
If all the air on a given floor was forced out of the way by the collapse front... and it went OUTWARD. The air that was in the center of the core would reach the facade in .1 sec and travel 100'... that's 1,000' in 1 sec 60,000' in 1 min and 360,000/hr = 780mph. YIKES. But the air from the edge of the core to the facade 60 feet away would be a mere 408mph... and on the short side 35' to the facade would be 240mph.

I suspect the over pressure cause by pushing air our of the way probably acted MOSTLY outward, but may also have pushed into the core area. It seems plausible that it might have broken the column end to end connections as they clearly were not designed to resist intense impulse such as over pressure from the collapsing floor plates.

Also consider that if there were local cars the would act like pistons compressing the air in the shaft down to the elevator pit and it would escape at the floor just above the pit? Maybe. If so the ejections did not travel faster than G but there was perhaps a pneumatic action... pressure up there and it translates to motion down there... blasting out and destroyed clg tiles etc and forcing them out a window or two... maybe
 
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC
Collapse Analysis
by
Gregory Szuladzin’ski, Anthony Szamboti and Richard Johns


The biggest problem with the paper is that it is poorly organized and attempts to touch too many bases.

The talking points each deserved a paper with the other talking points used if necessary in a supporting role.

I didn't notice any reference to deceleration or rubble which he explained very well in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guz04iFYxXY
 
If all the air on a given floor was forced out of the way by the collapse front... and it went OUTWARD. The air that was in the center of the core would reach the facade in .1 sec and travel 100'... that's 1,000' in 1 sec 60,000' in 1 min and 360,000/hr = 780mph. YIKES. But the air from the edge of the core to the facade 60 feet away would be a mere 408mph... and on the short side 35' to the facade would be 240mph.
If you go to some truther sites, you can find them measuring the actual speed of "squibs" of air overpressure by looking at the speed of dust being expelled in the videos. I seem to recall that the speeds were much less than what you cite here. Like 60mph.
 
If you go to some truther sites, you can find them measuring the actual speed of "squibs" of air overpressure by looking at the speed of dust being expelled in the videos. I seem to recall that the speeds were much less than what you cite here. Like 60mph.

The movement of air speed would like anything accelerate from rest (0). We might not see the full on blast of (less) air as it was obscured from view. I don't know how to calculate the actual speed and pressure related to the air displacement... but it had to be displaced because two masses cannot occupy the same volume at the same time... and one of those masses was moving downward at about 65mph.. forcing 18,000cu yards of air out of its way.
 
So I'll take off the kid gloves of diplomacy where your most recent post says: That is simply not true. And I already offered you the key reason. You are considering two aspects. 1) The descending physical mass of debris AND 2) the body of compressed air that the descending mass has created and which proceeds ahead of the mass of debris.




I was going to follow through today by saying a second wave of destruction on the core occurred from the mechanical juggernaut of the falling steel beam debris from above. But the primary initiating decoupling or unzipping came from lateral air blasts. I don't see why people have such a problem with this seeing how you can see those air blasts in the form of the dust bursts in the videos. The two items above are all you needed to initiate runaway floor collapse.



Now pause there, stop throwing out words and think. The air is going near enough the same speed as the debris mass. No way can the "bow wave" of air exert the same impact force as the solid bits of debris. That should be obvious even though I am so far only responding to your statement.



Here's where you show your ignorance of science. You're just plain dead wrong there, we should get that straight. We have pure evidence of that pressure wave in the form of the floor collapse seen out ahead of the main collapse front. You also suffer from Szamboti syndrome and fail to see that such a pneumatic force is capable of producing an amplified exponential force that would pass through the structure faster than gravity. Think of the hanging balls I spoke of. This pneumatic wave transferred through the OOS channel as the first punch that unzipped the floors and was followed by the second punch of the mechanical debris tumbling mass. By the way, you're dead wrong about the potential power of air. They use compressed air to cut steel now a days.




And the air pressure pulse was - must have been - at least one order of magnitude smaller the falling debris impact.
So stop, take a deep breath and count to ten and rethink. I am trying to assist you and I am not likely to get this sort of physics wrong. So if you want to show me that I am wrong you will need strong arguments not just personal incredulity.



If you look at the North Tower collapse video Szamboti did get his core resistance at the base, which would make sense because that is where the inner core was grounded to bedrock. However the outer ring of core columns was stripped. Something happened with the waveform of the collapse towards the bottom that allowed the temporary preservation of the core.

The obvious answer to what you wrote here is that the lateral pneumatic air blasts caused by the debris-weighted, and rammed floor pads were strong enough to decouple the core from the pads no matter what their strength relationship was to the tumbling juggernaut that followed right after.

You must have some ego considering the amount of words I get in reply for simply disagreeing with you.




Your next bit is fantasy: Then this next bit is true but irrelevant because it didn't happen that way: and now you drift into ambiguity/unclear definitions. When you have difficulty with thinking clearly try coming at it from the other direction. So ask "What did the falling mass of debris do? How could it stand aside and not get involved whilst my compressed air did the damage?




If you are following empirical inquiry you have to ask yourself what do the dust bursts seen out ahead of the collapse front tell you? Chandler says they are evidence of well-timed progressive demo charges, however he doesn't take the force and effect of those lateral air bursts into account in his models. It is scientifically unsound to not involve such a significant force in your determinations. Well, he gets around that by simply assuming their input as demolition charges. He fails to see pneumatic air blasts from runaway floor collapse would produce the same effect.



Are you saying that the falling mass of debris would not sever the joist connectors?



No, that's happening at the main collapse front which is why you have two distinct collapse fronts occurring in the event.




If you are not meaning that then you must be saying that the air blast was strong enough to shatter the joist connectors immediately before the falling debris struck. It should be obvious why that it not true. But the physics is harder to explain.




I think we are talking a very thin steel seat upon which the hanging floor truss was suspended. You might want to look into the incredible pressure created by compressing air with an accidental steel face floor pad piston being driven by tons of falling debris mass. You would have three escape directions. One to the inner core, one to the outer frame, and downward. Videos of the collapse show evidence of all three.
 
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Surface area is a HUGE component of air pressure, and this idea that it the pneumatic force would be the leading process behind the failure of any part of the actual structure doesn't fly with me. Not saying this to claim that it didn't exist or that it's totally irrelevant by any means, but it simply wasn't the driving mechanism for the collapse... The stripping of joints from the dynamic loading, and load eccentricity were the primary factors during collapse progression since pretty much both in every sense of the word were experienced at far greater magnitudes than would have been anticipated had the buildings experienced a normal "life cycle" for lack of better wording. This was pretty easily viewable thanks to the core briefly surviving beyond the initial collapse periods...

In essence, the effect of the air pressure resulting from the collapse makes for interesting details for discussion, but totally wrong emphasis is what I'm getting out the exchange. That's just a plain misunderstanding of the mechanisms of the collapses.
 
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It seems plausible that it might have broken the column end to end connections as they clearly were not designed to resist intense impulse such as over pressure from the collapsing floor plates.



I don't know the physics of it but I would expect the last foot or so of space, as the floor dropped to the one below it, would create enormous compressed air pressure. While the outward direction probably had less resistance because the outer frame wasn't backed by anything but air the inward direction did have the hollows of the core shafts to burst into. The pressures in the last foot or so of compressed airspace would eject with serious buckling force. Remember we just need enough to initiate ROOSD. Once ROOSD accumulated enough mass just from the floor debris pile driver it would destabilize the structure.
 
Surface area is a HUGE component of air pressure, and this idea that it the pneumatic force would be the leading process behind the failure of any part of the actual structure doesn't fly with me. Not saying this to claim that it didn't exist or that it's totally irrelevant by any means, but it simply wasn't the driving mechanism for the collapse... The stripping of joints from the dynamic loading, and load eccentricity were the primary factors during collapse progression since pretty much both in every sense of the word were experienced at far greater magnitudes than would have been anticipated had the buildings experienced a normal "life cycle" for lack of better wording. This was pretty easily viewable thanks to the core briefly surviving beyond the initial collapse periods...

In essence, the effect of the air pressure resulting from the collapse makes for interesting details for discussion, but totally wrong emphasis is what I'm getting out the exchange. That's just a plain misunderstanding of the mechanisms of the collapses.


I think what's obvious here is you haven't disproven it. What we are talking about is a fleeting split second where that air blast interfaces with the core columns and exerts incredible destructive force. Enough to remove Szamboti's expected static resistance and allow the rest of the debris mass to finish the job. I think the reason people have trouble with this is because they don't realize how quickly it would happen. Again, the key to this is watching the leading pressure wave as exhibited in the dust bursts coursing down the building ahead of the main collapse and asking what is causing that.

Surface area is indeed very important. There's a formula here for the broad surface area of the steel pad floor face vs the large mass of debris driving it downward and the extreme air pressures it would create.


I wish I had the computer skills to animate this because you would see there was a fluid cycle to this.
 
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Surface area is indeed very important. There's a formula here for the broad surface area of the steel pad floor face vs the large mass of debris driving it downward and the extreme air pressures it would create.


I wish I had the computer skills to animate this because you would see there was a fluid cycle to this.


I think you might be over thinking this. The over pressure would exert a force in all directions. The speed of the ejection at each floor level would be all you need to calculate the force. I doubt you would get a force of more than a couple PSI. This is not insignificant but, I doubt it would be a factor.
 
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The movement of air speed would like anything accelerate from rest (0). We might not see the full on blast of (less) air as it was obscured from view. I don't know how to calculate the actual speed and pressure related to the air displacement... but it had to be displaced because two masses cannot occupy the same volume at the same time... and one of those masses was moving downward at about 65mph.. forcing 18,000cu yards of air out of its way.

I understand. Here is Richard Gage debating a demolitions expert, Ron Craig. I apologize that it's a long listen, but they definitely deal with the squib speed, and my recollection is that the squibs were 60mph not 600mph.

Go to 30 minutes or so in the following link. Gage says "hurling beams at 55mph" and "taking out the perimeter columns," etc. Bone debris across the street at the Deutsche Bank building.

Reality - A god damned plan flew into a building.



http://archive.org/details/20071112_gage_vs_craig_911truth_onSyrett_cfrb

"squibs" ---- when a solid changes to a gas, it creates a flash... 20 40 and even 60 stories below the collapse ... you have explosives visible ... The "pile driver" is pushing the air down.

"160 to 200 fps" per Gage... feel free to listen, Jim Hoffman jumps in at 51:10.
 
I don't know the physics of it but I would expect the last foot or so of space, as the floor dropped to the one below it, would create enormous compressed air pressure. While the outward direction probably had less resistance because the outer frame wasn't backed by anything but air the inward direction did have the hollows of the core shafts to burst into. The pressures in the last foot or so of compressed airspace would eject with serious buckling force. Remember we just need enough to initiate ROOSD. Once ROOSD accumulated enough mass just from the floor debris pile driver it would destabilize the structure.

Remember that the air pressure would act in ALL direction including upwards - it is not a piston but a mass of debris so some air will go upwards...
 
If all the air on a given floor was forced out of the way by the collapse front... and it went OUTWARD. The air that was in the center of the core would reach the facade in .1 sec and travel 100'... that's 1,000' in 1 sec 60,000' in 1 min and 360,000/hr = 780mph. YIKES. But the air from the edge of the core to the facade 60 feet away would be a mere 408mph... and on the short side 35' to the facade would be 240mph.

I suspect the over pressure cause by pushing air our of the way probably acted MOSTLY outward, but may also have pushed into the core area. It seems plausible that it might have broken the column end to end connections as they clearly were not designed to resist intense impulse such as over pressure from the collapsing floor plates.

Also consider that if there were local cars the would act like pistons compressing the air in the shaft down to the elevator pit and it would escape at the floor just above the pit? Maybe. If so the ejections did not travel faster than G but there was perhaps a pneumatic action... pressure up there and it translates to motion down there... blasting out and destroyed clg tiles etc and forcing them out a window or two... maybe

Part of the problem, as I see it, is the difference between the conditions assumed, in an approximation of reality, and what was actually taking place in reality.
In this case I believe that it can be seen in the assumption that floors collapsed evenly. That is to say, that the entire upper floorpan came down into the next floor volume in one solid and simultaneous piece. There is no reason to expect this actually occurred. One difference means greater mixing of air with the falling debris mass and with increasing collapse front speed comes increasing pressure in the air which would allow continued mixing of air and falling debris even with greater mass and volume of falling debris.
This will modify the effect of the movement of air through the shrinking floor volume and out the windows.

As for the 'squibs', air being forced down the elevator shafts, yet another avenue of escape for the pressurized air, it may encounter damaged elevator doors or stalled cars, both of which would allow diversion of some of this pressurized air into a lower floor below the collapse front. Once this air enters a lower floorspace we have to examine the physics that affects it.The air would enter the floor space/volume through the door at a specific rate which could be described in kg/second, or cubic meters/second. This would in turn determine the velocity of that air. However it is now entering a much larger volume of normal pressure(atmospheric pressure). If the windows on this floor are all intact and their frames relatively undamaged then the pressure in that floor volume will rise,,, but never match that in the elevator shaft(given a long enough time an equilibrium would result but in our case, in reality, that cannot be achieved).
If a window is broken this lower pressure air escapes taking with it dust and paper and lighter components of office materials.
If a window is cracked or a frame is damaged( this structure has encountered a plane crash and in the case of 2WTC, light debris impacts) the floor volume air pressure will rise until the window either shatters or blows out of its damaged frame,,,,, or it will hold until the debris collapse front reaches it.
This lower than elevator shaft pressure will result in lower 'squib' debris blowout velocity.
BUT, this still assumes an even debris collapse front. Why should we expect that ? Instead, and MT showed evidence that the collapse was not in fact even, it is quite possible that areas of collapsing floors lagged or led the average collapse front which again offers another avenue of escape for pressurizing floor volume air, incidentally increasing the velocity of the debris from that leading local collapse area.

In short, and as we have pointed out many times, this collapse quickly became extremely chaotic. Calculations such as yours are an upper limit of air pressure and velocity.
 
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