Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

Not sure which tabloid he wrote for but it is indeed very interesting. I just posted at IIP that the media line may be very different this time. Amanda is now visible to viewers. She cannot be demonised so easily. At the same time she is very photogenic and should be much in demand for interviews. There is a much bigger story of prosecutorial corruption and incompetence which may play very well. I sense the guilters get this as they go into overdrive trying to swamp the internet and create the false impression there's more than a handful of these obsessive nutters.

And for heavens sake don't create a headline out of what they say. They then post they didn't say it. I know they'd said it. How do I know? "I was there," so I should know.

 

[RoseMontague]

Bill Williams confesses: "I was there."

And for heavens sake don't create a headline out of what they say. They then post they didn't say it. I know they'd said it. How do I know? "I was there," so I should know.

Yep, yep.

 

[Grinder]

There is an important article about an independent investigation of some of the crime scene evidence:

Thanks for the article snips. This could be a nice outline for a defense video series.

Has the show been on TV yet?

But what about the barking dogs says one PGP believer.

Anglo was the lie detector remark discussed?

ETA - The talking points are getting better on the shows I've seen. I'd like them to follow the no evidence in the room with the pictures of the alleged compatible footprints put up on the screen with the "comment" this is what the prosewcution used and not even their own experts would say these matched my feet and the police scientist neglected to tell the court they tested negative for blood. You can look it up!

 

[Bill Williams]

I've removed the signature line about Machiavelli. I apologize to him for any misunderstanding.

Yet I remain puzzled on how to converse with someone where someone says something, and then the next 20 posts is dealing with the caveats, which end up where he claims to be saying the exact opposite of what he originally claimed.

I am now officially bamboozled.

 

[anglolawyer]

Thanks for the article snips. This could be a nice outline for a defense video series.

Has the show been on TV yet?

But what about the barking dogs says one PGP believer.

Anglo was the lie detector remark discussed?

Where? I saw a snip of her ITV interview, if you mean that, and she said after what she's been through a lie detector test would be a breeze.

 

[anglolawyer]

I've removed the signature line about Machiavelli. I apologize to him for any misunderstanding.

Yet I remain puzzled on how to converse with someone where someone says something, and then the next 20 posts is dealing with the caveats, which end up where he claims to be saying the exact opposite of what he originally claimed.

I am now officially bamboozled.

And in need of a new sig (as am I come to think of it).

 

[Machiavelli]

Can you give me some further guidance, please. How do you explanations above make the silliness of your claims better? I'm referring to things like the "sleep deprivation issue", esp. when people can go back in this "continuation thread" back to circa June 24 and read what you said for themselves?

I already gave you further guidances this week.

Consider these things to be like HEADLINES - for instance, the "I was there" headline that appeared above Ms. Vogt's misstatement of the secretly recorded conversation between Knox and her mother. Can you enlighten me the difference between what it is my signature line and that?

A first - most important - difference is the use of quotation marks followed by the name of the author. Which makes it a false attribution and not a title.
The second difference is that you are not auhtorized to put headlines on my writings, since you are not the one publishing them; I never gave them to you for publishing, you are not my newspaper nor my publisher.

Can you also comment on this - you make claims, and then spend dozens of follow up posts claiming you never actually said what you said. The three you complain about above are fair renderings of what you have claimed in various posts.

They are not fair readings. They are a twisting. A deliberate twisting. And you know that.
You started falsely reporting things I allegedly said from the very beginning since the first times you interacted with me. The first thing you did was starting to repeat that I maintanied that I could determine Knox's guilt from a picture. Do you remember that?
Why this? It's simple: because twisting what I say, change it in order to attempt to "use" it, is just what you like to do. This false attribution work, this twisting, is one your main activities. Is what you purposely do. You are interested in me, in "using" what I say or things that you could attribute to me in order to attemtpt to discredit the author - you say "look at the author", or "look at these arguments" (which are in fact slogans redacted by you) rather than look at the topics.
As long as you quoted actual statements as a signatura in the other forum, that could have been ok, yet it was still annoying because whenever you serched "Machiavelli" in the page you would get your unrelated posts.

Take for instance the one about Hellmann being paid off by the Masons. Now you've changed your story.... so would it be any more correct to now say, "Machiavelli believes that the Masons only arranged the money transfer from powerful US Media interests to pay off Judge Hellmann."

Well, you can say that (as long as you do not present it as a quote from my writings).
(btw, I don't think I changed my "story" - which is not a story but a theory - I think it's always the same and I don't think you can prove I changed anything).

 

[Grinder]

Where? I saw a snip of her ITV interview, if you mean that, and she said after what she's been through a lie detector test would be a breeze.

Yes it was on that interview. She said she would be willing to take a lie detector test, which as you know is rarely done on advice of a lawyer but is a powerful offer.

She seems to be more aggressive in stating her innocence and I think that is a positive sign.

 

[JREF2010]

In this case, the deprivation of access to advice goes to the root of the whole affair. It is strongly arguable they would never have been convicted of anything (certainly not calunnia) had they received timely advice.

While I agree the interrogation was crooked and none of this would have happened, but the calunnia occurred in the court room and it was her lawyers who didn't stop her from stating the slapping/cuffing. This opened the door for the charge I guess....its confusing because I thought the accused was allowed to even lie in Italy and be ok...

of course the insanity returned when Massei had Migninni basically investigate his own inbred polizia gestapo, and found them innocent, and then charged Amanda with even more foul play as calunnia with Maresca salivating like a wolf at the wounded Bambi.

This next trial wont include the civil crap, so at least the Migninni Puppet wont be praying to Rudy Guede so much, and the Lying Squad wont be allowed to keep people from the courtrooms with threats.

So the corrupt system allows their poster boy Migninni to bully a twenty yr old girl, and at a minimum win the Patrick charge and Calunnia charge.
Two charges based from the rotten smelling Migninni stew.

 

[Machiavelli]

Apologies from Bill accepted.

 

[Methos]

Thanks for the article snips. This could be a nice outline for a defense video series.

Has the show been on TV yet?
But what about the barking dogs says one PGP believer.

Anglo was the lie detector remark discussed?

ETA - The talking points are getting better on the shows I've seen. I'd like them to follow the no evidence in the room with the pictures of the alleged compatible footprints put up on the screen with the "comment" this is what the prosewcution used and not even their own experts would say these matched my feet and the police scientist neglected to tell the court they tested negative for blood. You can look it up!

Amanda Knox Trial: 5 Key Questions

Tomorrrow 10 pm in the UK

 

[Grinder]

Amanda Knox Trial: 5 Key Questions

Tomorrow 10 pm in the UK

Thank you. Does anybody know if it will be available in the US?

It does seem like a new day in the british media.

Anglo your point about the defendants being out is spot on. Locking up people without the possibility of bail seems like another shortcoming of the Italian system.

Not allowing them to speak with lawyers before their first hearing was so wrong if not illegal.

 

[Machiavelli]

Yes. The quote I provided comes from Raffaele's first appeal of Massei and is contained in the section I will attach (pgs 40-49).

These points of appeal instances (already rejected by Matteini, Ricciarelli and Massei) were also rejected by Hellmann-Zanetti.

 

[RoseMontague]

These points of appeal instances (already rejected by Matteini, Ricciarelli and Massei) were also rejected by Hellmann-Zanetti.

The quote shows the document was not provided regardless.

 

[RoseMontague]

Here are some quotes about the Amanda sexually attracted to Meredith theory:

Machiavelli wrote:
I am positive this was the trigger for Rudy's participation into the crime.
What excited him, it was the participation of Amanda.

Amanda instead, was sexually attracted by Meredith (and more specifically by a kind of promoscious erotic situation; there is mor to say about that; there is a chapter of evidence about this).

She premeditated something, but not a crime nor an agression, in my opinion. I think she wanted to have a sexual interourse/ play a sexual game with Meredith. She was sexually attracted by Meredith or wanted her sexual attention - and/or that of her boyfriend, to her narcissistic satisfaction.
I think her attempt to seek Meredith around Hallowen became more intense because Meredith's boyfriend was away and she was alone over the days 31.-2.
The clues in Amanda's behavior point to conclude that she was trying to be seductive towards Meredith and her boyfriend, rather than openly vindicative. She told Meredith she, Amanda, would like to be seen naked "by the boyfriends of my friends", she often attempted to attract her attention by doing awkward things, especially whenever Meredith had visits, she wanted to be powerful and imitated the roomate with the leading personality, she was sexually competitive even with clients of the pub where she and Meredith worked. She was always attempting to gain power over Meredith and attention from her.

About her possible relation with Guede, I want to point out the following elements: Guede attended the same house where she lived; he was a close friend of a young man who lived downstaris; he used to spend his time in the basketball court which is on the route between her daily walk between home and language school back and forth every day; the basketball court is only 90 mters from Amanda's hose door and 60 meters from where she had university classes; they admitted of knowing each other, they had met more than once in more than one place; Guede was sexually attracted by Amanda, he liked her a lot (he was not interested in Meredith); Guede and Amanda atnded the same pubs and the same places in the city; Amanda wrote in her MySpace page that on her arrival in Perugia, in a bar near the University of Foreigners she met the "most beautiful black man" she had ever seen, and they promised to each other they would meet again as she would come back from Germany (black men attending bars in via Garibaldi are not so many; and Knox never revealed the name of this guy).

Because of elements listed above, I think assuming Guede and Amanda dated each other is a perfectly reasonable scenario. It is not proven, but it is perfectly plausible. You can well hypothsyze it if you already have evidence on Knox and you want to complete the picture with some scenario of the crime.

I wonder if the the latest appeal court will focus on any of this in trying to come up with a theory of the crime that fits with the ISC directives.

 

[Mary_H]

Well there is a huge file of evidence that Amanda had a disturbed personality, and it is a personality disease of the narcissistic cluster kind. Some attraction for Meredith is rather obvious from her demeanor, I won't use the term "huge file" because it's maybe inappropriate, but her seeking attention of Meredith and in presence of Meredith stand out as a trait of several over-the-top behaviors she had.

Here are some quotes about the Amanda sexually attracted to Meredith theory:

I am positive this was the trigger for Rudy's participation into the crime.
What excited him, it was the participation of Amanda.

Amanda instead, was sexually attracted by Meredith (and more specifically by a kind of promoscious erotic situation; there is mor to say about that; there is a chapter of evidence about this).

She premeditated something, but not a crime nor an agression, in my opinion. I think she wanted to have a sexual interourse/ play a sexual game with Meredith. She was sexually attracted by Meredith or wanted her sexual attention - and/or that of her boyfriend, to her narcissistic satisfaction.
I think her attempt to seek Meredith around Hallowen became more intense because Meredith's boyfriend was away and she was alone over the days 31.-2.
The clues in Amanda's behavior point to conclude that she was trying to be seductive towards Meredith and her boyfriend, rather than openly vindicative. She told Meredith she, Amanda, would like to be seen naked "by the boyfriends of my friends", she often attempted to attract her attention by doing awkward things, especially whenever Meredith had visits, she wanted to be powerful and imitated the roomate with the leading personality, she was sexually competitive even with clients of the pub where she and Meredith worked. She was always attempting to gain power over Meredith and attention from her.

I wonder if the the latest appeal court will focus on any of this in trying to come up with a theory of the crime that fits with the ISC directives.

I'd like to know where this information came from. Did Meredith come back from the dead to corroborate?

Maybe Mignini, Quennell and Machiavelli held a ritualistic three-way séance after discussing the kind of girl-on-girl action they like to get off on.

 

[Bill Williams]

Can you give me some further guidance, please. How do you explanations above make the silliness of your claims better? I'm referring to things like the "sleep deprivation issue", esp. when people can go back in this "continuation thread" back to circa June 24 and read what you said for themselves?

I already gave you further guidances this week.

Just to be clear - what I meant was why you even started posting about being able to discern from Knox's writings that she was immune from fatigue related to lack of sleep.

To refresh your memory, this had to do with your claim that Knox was ready and refreshed on the late evening of Nov 5th to implement her plan to deceive the PLE at interrogation.

In fact. But why do you assume Knox and Sollecito were slep-deprived? Because Kassim or Moore said that? Or because Knox said that in her book?
The facts are that Knox was doing 'cartwheels' (my word doesn't meant to be derogatory) or yoga exercises and gymnastics/splits minutes before, and other minutes before even homeworks (that she described as 'very difficult'), and that day she also took classes, and she woke up early, she called Filomena to discuss about the rent, then they went ouf for a pizza in the evening.
That is not things sleep-deprived people doo. Sleep-deprived people look for sleep.

Sleep deprived people look for sleep. They don't remain sleep-deprived over a continuous time over days without seeking sleep, or drug in alternative. People under a great deal of stress might be unable to sleep, but they will anyway try to sleep, if they have significant symptoms of deprivation.
But Amanda doesn't try. She writes, reads, does difficult homework, wakes up early and attends classes, goes out, when she could sleep instead. You can't do homeworks if you actually need sleep, for how stressed and fed up of the situation you are, if you need sleep you would want to sleep. You won't wake up in th early morning to attend routine classes, when you could stay in bed and sleep; you won't call to discuss rent details, you won't write narrative e-mails night time (especially if you are just tired of repeating the same details), you don't go out if you can stay home and rest.
Moreover if sleep deprivation symptoms are significant, you don't feel damn hungry.
Indeed Knox decided to remain very awake, decided to be in emergency mode. But she did so because she decided to, and se decided to because to she thought it was safer for her to remain awake, aka because she could (she was not so deprived to actually feel sleep was phisicaly more important).
The only reasonable explanation is she doesn't have any kind of severe weakness symptoms.
Moreover, Amanda had a habit of waking up very early on her own and sleeping quite little.
I'm sorry but there is nothing in what Knox did that could suggest that she was unable to bear a 3 hours questioning. And there is nothing in what she said in her 05:45 statement or what she wrote in her hand written memoir, suggesting that she lost her logical-cognitive faculties, awareness of reality, and ability to think.

No, my 'theory' is not based on my extensive clinical experience in sleep issues; it is based above all on what Amanda Knox wrote herself and on testimonies (including her own).
However I think I am, to some extent, an expert in sleep issues. Not because of professional studies, but first of all because I used to suffer of sleep issues. When you are a patient, you become an expert. I think I am an expert about sleep deprivation, it's 02.47 now here.
I'm not the only one with strange sleep patters in my familiy. I have a younger sister who had the most spectatular symptoms of sleep anomalies, sleepwalkings and parasomnia; she was an extremely intereting study case, she was observed by researchers from a sleep-study center.
My relatives are also all doctors; my mother used to be an anesthesiologist university professor, she worked at the Cleveland Clinics in the US; without having chosen so, I happen to know a lot about toxicology, drugs and sleep. I never went to a doctor except for sleep, always been healthy, but when I was a child I had more medicaments in my home than in Michael Jacskon's.
In my life, then working in theatre, I learnt about hypnosys techniques, trance, body language, things of the kind. I think I may tell your "sleep deprivation" from the color of your skin, face, eyes movements, fine hand movements and many other things.
But sleep deprivation has nothing to do with Knox's action such as the hand written note, not even on the cognitive side. She was never confused, she was ambiguous, double-talking, not confuse. All what she did tells about her being lucid, awake and in control.

Ergo - you claimed that Amanda Knox did not need sleep, that she could simply choose to remain awake, therefore she was lucid and in control during the interrogation.

Do you still stand by this? (I can hear the "yes buts", and "you're taking this out of context" already.

 

[Wildhorses]

Someone's been watching too much porn.

 

[Mary_H]

Someone's been watching too much porn.

They sure have. The story they came up with says everything about them and nothing about the actual crime.

ETA: I would love to see the "huge file of evidence." It might have photos from Amanda's doctor visits in prison.

 

[JREF2010]

Amanda Knox Trial: 5 Key Questions

Tomorrrow 10 pm in the UK

sound is mentioned, maybe the "scream" ToD will be studied, which the prosecution didnt feel the need to do.

I understand the believers in 11-11:30pm ToD like to have faith in the testimony of the tow truck driver who made a testimony of being done by 11:15pm.

But the people calling for the repairman, said it was later, Allessandra Formica supports these people which pushes the scene to be ending 11:35-11:40.

Both claims are based off the time the call was initiated.

But the cell phone data is not known apparently, the call log of the broken down car person would show when this occurred, if it was later, then the Tow Truck drivers testimony would be wrong....

this would mean another failure for the 11-11:30pm scream ToD, the ISC seems to support.

I would be amazed if the decibels to penetrate through double pane glass wouldnt carry to the open basketball court which has a clear path to Toto.
A sound test would be interesting if this show goes that far.
I doubt it will.