FBI dropped the ball wrt Mossaoui

[jaydeehess]

As I pointed out earlier, we had operators on the ground with the Laotians in '59, and there was a fair amount of contact between the Laotians (led and trained by SF) and the Viets. There is no recored reluctance on the part of NVA forces to fire on Americans or American led units.

If what JB asserts was true, the introduction of full scale US forces should have stopped NVA encroachment on the south.

That would have been, in the most optimistic, hopeful dreams of American military strategists, the best possible thing to happen. But no one would have been expecting that. The NVA had already shown no hesitation to fire on and kill the French. Of course doing that had in fact eventually resulted in the French leaving the country. Recent history then indicated to the North, that foreigners would eventually go away if attacked.

Other instances in Oriental history, Japan, and China, also indicated that attacking Europeans and Americans would have them go away.

 

[Axxman300]

Hey JetBlast, didja know:

The Vietnamese will take a swing at anybody who got in their face: The French, the US, and China all ended up on the pointy end of their spear.

Ho Chi Minh approached Truman to have the US "take over all of Vietnam" and run it like they ran the Philippines. Truman thought about it but as it was the height of the McCarthy Era he couldn't risk looking weak on Communism ( a real consideration for any President between 1950 and 1989)

If it wasn't the Maddox it would have been something else. That's how Johnson was.

There is a long list of plausible reasons people wanted to kill JFK, Vietnam has never been one of them, and in the end Lee Harvey Oswald had his own motives.


None of this has anything to to with 9/11.

 

[jaydeehess]

Hey JetBlast, didja know:

The Vietnamese will take a swing at anybody who got in their face: The French, the US, and China all ended up on the pointy end of their spear.

Ho Chi Minh approached Truman to have the US "take over all of Vietnam" and run it like they ran the Philippines. Truman thought about it but as it was the height of the McCarthy Era he couldn't risk looking weak on Communism ( a real consideration for any President between 1950 and 1989)

For that matter,iirc, the USA is who transported Ho back to Vietnam after WW2, and the Vietnamese constitution is modeled after that of the USA.
Not quite sure where I saw that. It was a documentary on TV but I don't recall the channel.

 

[BStrong]

For that matter,iirc, the USA is who transported Ho back to Vietnam after WW2, and the Vietnamese constitution is modeled after that of the USA.
Not quite sure where I saw that. It was a documentary on TV but I don't recall the channel.

IIRC Ho had requested copies of the U.S. Declaration of Independence and the Constitution from his OSS contacts during WWII, with an eye towards forming the basis for the new Vietnam (Indochina) after the war with the understanding that we'd keep out the French.

Pretty much true to form, that promise went up in smoke post-war.

 

[jaydeehess]

IIRC Ho had requested copies of the U.S. Declaration of Independence and the Constitution from his OSS contacts during WWII, with an eye towards forming the basis for the new Vietnam (Indochina) after the war with the understanding that we'd keep out the French.

Pretty much true to form, that promise went up in smoke post-war.

Yes, the USA was all in favour of not allowing the Europeans to regain their empires after WW II, which many saw as part of the reason that the local European conflict became a global one, and Ho was quite impressed. Unfortunately he was also impressed with some of the ideals of Socialism including the need for countries to have control over their own resources. This, in the strident anti-Communist state of affairs in post war USA, meant that the USA no longer wanted anything to do with the 'Commie' Ho. Driven in large part by the wishes of US companies for whom national control was anathema to their own agenda and who were 'owed' for their part in supporting the war effort.
The upshot of this was that anti-commie sentiments won out against anti-empire wishes.
The irony is that this illustrated that while the USA was stridently opposed to political empires, it was solidly behind economic empire building.

Much the same happened when Castro first took over Cuba. He was origianlly not considered a bad guy by Washington but when he took power and tried to take control of his country's resources, all of a sudden he was the enemy. Castro tried to court normal relations with the USA and being rebuffed, often very abruptly and rudely, he had little choice but to align himself with the USSR.
Ho was in the same boat. Having been refused friendship with the USA, and with traditional mistruct of China (itself not much of a power immediately post WW II) he had little choice but to turn to Russia.

IIRC there are many instances of Russia being the second choice for alignment for emerging countries rebuffed by the USA over socialist policies.

But we digress from the blindered viewpoint that Jetblast is pushing.

 

[BStrong]

Yes, the USA was all in favour of not allowing the Europeans to regain their empires after WW II, which many saw as part of the reason that the local European conflict became a global one, and Ho was quite impressed. Unfortunately he was also impressed with some of the ideals of Socialism including the need for countries to have control over their own resources. This, in the strident anti-Communist state of affairs in post war USA, meant that the USA no longer wanted anything to do with the 'Commie' Ho. Driven in large part by the wishes of US companies for whom national control was anathema to their own agenda and who were 'owed' for their part in supporting the war effort.
The upshot of this was that anti-commie sentiments won out against anti-empire wishes.
The irony is that this illustrated that while the USA was stridently opposed to political empires, it was solidly behind economic empire building.

Much the same happened when Castro first took over Cuba. He was origianlly not considered a bad guy by Washington but when he took power and tried to take control of his country's resources, all of a sudden he was the enemy. Castro tried to court normal relations with the USA and being rebuffed, often very abruptly and rudely, he had little choice but to align himself with the USSR.
Ho was in the same boat. Having been refused friendship with the USA, and with traditional mistruct of China (itself not much of a power immediately post WW II) he had little choice but to turn to Russia.

IIRC there are many instances of Russia being the second choice for alignment for emerging countries rebuffed by the USA over socialist policies.

But we digress from the blindered viewpoint that Jetblast is pushing.

One of the biggest mistakes we've ever committed as a national policy is the knee-jerk support of any ******* that claimed they were "Anti-Communist."

Between the criminals we supported in Africa to the ones in Central and South America, U.S. policy got into bed with some real bad actors.

Having some experience with this first hand, it's hard to believe that we cozied up with some of them.

As you stated, this is OT, but it should be noted that this is an area where real evil was done, but certain CT hawkers weren't satisfied with revealing the real evil, they had to conjure up grand conspiracy (See: Christic Institute lawsuit, CIA/crack cocaine/Gary Webb/ Danny Casolaro) and in the process failed to do any good in stopping what actually was going down.

 

[Robrob]

One of the biggest mistakes we've ever committed as a national policy is the knee-jerk support of any ******* that claimed they were "Anti-Communist."
Between the criminals we supported in Africa to the ones in Central and South America, U.S. policy got into bed with some real bad actors.

Having some experience with this first hand, it's hard to believe that we cozied up with some of them.

Perfect example being the Shah of Iran. Nearly a half century later and we are still paying the price.

As you stated, this is OT, but it should be noted that this is an area where real evil was done, but certain CT hawkers weren't satisfied with revealing the real evil, they had to conjure up grand conspiracy (See: Christic Institute lawsuit, CIA/crack cocaine/Gary Webb/ Danny Casolaro) and in the process failed to do any good in stopping what actually was going down.

True, they have an odd predilection for the least likely of explanation for even the most banal events.