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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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The Supreme Court's ruling that Amanda's statements could not be used because she was questioned outside the presence of a lawyer is documentation that Mignini broke the law.

This is patently false. A pure invention. Non-usability of a statement is absolutely no documentation of a violation of law. Lack of defence lawyer is no documentation of a violation of the law.
I don't know how and why your reasonings go along irrational "deductions" like these. But that can be taken as an example (read herring) for the credibility/consistency of all your argumentations.
Your entire pattern of thought on this case is build along these lines of made up "logic".

The transcript of the trial in which he describes the way the crime happened is documentation of him accusing the defendants of criminal acts for which he had no evidence.

Btw, on what evidentiary/rational elements is your accusation that some doctors (who?) delivered fake HIV results based on?
How are you about unfounded accusations?
 
The criminals are the people who are hiding the lab records. Why are they hiding them? Just so they can feel good about themselves by imprisoning innocent people. This is truly shameful.

Nobody is hiding anything. You are just lying when you say that. And you know that.
 
Hi Machiavelli,

Upthread I asked you a question. I hope you can take a moment to consider it, or advise that you will not be doing so, so that I can move on.

Thanks
 
You should calm down a little.

First off, even Barbie Nadeau concedes that Mignini theorized a connection between this horrible event and Hallowe'en. Call it a "Satanic ritual" or that it was a "ritualistic killing associated with the dawn of the dead," or anything else. It is simply a matter of record that Mignini theorized this way. Then he changed it.

It's false.
A "connection between this murder and Halloween" does not mean nor imply any "ritualistic killing".
Mignini simply did not theorize a ritual murder.
(in fact he even explicitly pointed out that the murder had no relation with a cult).

Mignini only and always pictured a scenario of sexual game, where the murder was only an unpredicted side effect.
Whether the details of the sexual game could have been in some way triggered taking some inspiration from the Halloween atmosphere, and from some of the peculiar violent manga and porn movies collected by Sollecito, he mentioned this possibility and called it "not unrealistic".
(Such possible "inspiration" is only referred to the possible style of the "festino sessuale" (a sexual game, or sexual prank) that they might have in mind. Not to the murder. The murder is only the consequence of violence arising in a context where some sexual approach was refused or anyway the "party" went wrong).

Whoever calls this "theorizing a Satanic ritual" or calls this a "ritual murder theory" is obviously purposedly twisting, and building a malicious lie.

The interrogation was inadmissible at trial. That's what the ISC ruled. If that doesn't make it "illegal" what does?

The 01:45 interrogation was inadmissible (actually: "not-usable") because all interrogations are inadmissible as evidence against the person who released them, in the case for which they were helping the investigation. The 05:45 statement was not-usable *as evidence in a murder trial* because the suspect was not yet assisted by a lawyer. But the statement was collected legally! It was not usable in a trial (by that status - but it could have become usable if she confirmed), but anyway it was usable in an investigation. The non-usability bears absolutely NO implication that the document is illegal. This is an absolute invention. And I not that you still refuse to acept such an obvious legal point.

Andrea Vogt made a mistake. I am clear that I did not and have never accused her of lying. She simply parroted the prosecution line, that eventually was not used as a basis of conviction.

Your legitimate opinion. But your pointing at Vogt's "mistakes" on your part is grotesque, like cleaning your rearview mirror while you are sitting in a car sinking in a river.

Repeat: if it had been an admission by Knox that she'd been at the cottage, Judge Massei would have used that as a reason to convict. He did not.

This argument is wrong. Your deduction is unfounded, the reasoning is flawed. Absence is not evidence. It is a general rule. I mean the reasoning which is wrong, it's always wrong - not talking specificaly about this particular element.

Ms. Vogt reported on a reason to heavily suspect Amanda Knox was guilty... and this turned out not to be true. Has she ever corrected the record?

The actual dishonesty is that you pick up this and not the rest that you have around your. You look at the droplets on your rearmirror and not at the marshy river. There is no reason why you should start from asking yourself why Vogt shold "correct" herself right on that particular (irrelevant) piece of information.

A "criminally libellous campaign"? Is not this accusation itself the definition of "calunnia"?

No, calunnia is giving false evidence to the police.

Are you not accusing someone of committing a crime when you know full well they are doing no such thing?

I know very wel that you (plural) and many media are doing exactly that.

Does Ms. Vogt share your belief that Judge Hellmann was bought off by a Masonic conspiracy?

Ask her.
Anyway, I think Hellmann was bought off, but the Masons only found the contact and channels, they are not the ones who paid nor those who masterminded.

Does Ms. Vogt share your belief that Amanda Knox is immune from sleep deprivation?

You are again (implicitly) attempting to offer a false picture my opinions. My stance about Knoxs' (let's say alleged?) sleep deprivation-related theories, is not about "immunity" from sleep deprivation; it is instead about irrelevance and lack of any factual element of it.

Does Ms. Vogt share your belief that guilt or innocence is NOT derived from a comprehensive narrative of the crime?

Again you ask her. I may suggest you don't forget that Vogt is a reporter, not a law philosophy scholar, and she may well have no stance about this.
 
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Hi Machiavelli,

Upthread I asked you a question. I hope you can take a moment to consider it, or advise that you will not be doing so, so that I can move on.

Thanks

I delayed that topic, for a) low priority (I have little interest for the statment itself) and b) time needed, the post would require a longer time.
So maybe later.
 
I haven't read all of it, but I see no reason to believe the decision was legally correct. It appeared to be based on a good old boy system in which the ISC just decided to make a decision to obfuscate a serious problem with the Italian judicial system or they have formed an opinion of RS and AK guilt based on emotional flights of fantasy.

I also agree with your comment about Hellman and the poster who many posts back said that he thought Helmman made this decision as a method of providing some cover for the Italian judicial system.

Nonetheless, Italy is a diverse country with people that are on average about as logical as people in any other country. Your post can easily be perceived as racist and as I said I think the public perception that RS and AK are innocent is more harmed than helped by a comment like that from an RS/AK supporter.

I of course was being a little tongue in cheek and flippant. I am a big fan of Marcus Aurelius as well as Da Vinci. I guess I should have said Italian justice and logic are an oxymoron.
 
Mach - thank you for your detailed response. I simply do not believe you. You, like Ms. Vogt simply parrot the Perugian prosecutor's position. But I am grateful for your effort.

BTW - you have slightly changed your story about your masonic conspiracy. That is interesting, because you also claim that slight changes of story are indicative of guilt.

Does Ms Vogt believe in your first version or your second version? Or neither?
 
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I delayed that topic, for a) low priority (I have little interest for the statment itself) and b) time needed, the post would require a longer time.
So maybe later.

I am sorry, but I must take this response as a refusal to answer, and presume your answer would have to be yes - either conversation is missing or the Italian judiciary is acting with willful malice towards Knox and prejudicially against Knox.

Like a TKO ( technical knock out) not as satisfying, but no less recorded.

Thank you.
 
I think your times are off even 15 minutes is important. The car broke down around 10:30 the tow truck arrived at 11 and departed at 11:13

not from what Ive read, but Im aware theres a debate on that too. The Guilters want 11:13, 11:15,,,the Appeal states its 11:40pm.

unless I see a video of the tow truck driver saying it, I'll remain with the defense because of the logic that they request the info be brought into the Appeal.

like removing the handle of the knife for more testing by Independent Experts, it was the Defense requesting it, which shows greater credibility to me....versus the Prosecution who want to refuse more data.

of course they have changed their tune about that, after losing the Appeal. Now the prosecution wants more testing done.

Trace "I" will be starch, so what then?

Ink blots to look at to blame on Amanda and Raffaele?
Like blaming footstep sounds on Amanda and Raffale?

a fair court would toss all of that out in a second.
 
This is patently false. A pure invention. Non-usability of a statement is absolutely no documentation of a violation of law. Lack of defence lawyer is no documentation of a violation of the law.
I don't know how and why your reasonings go along irrational "deductions" like these. But that can be taken as an example (read herring) for the credibility/consistency of all your argumentations.
Your entire pattern of thought on this case is build along these lines of made up "logic".

Andrea Vogt interviewed two experts in Italian law for this article. One of them stated:

"Italy's Supreme Court has already said that some of [Knox's] early statements may not be used against her because they were made without an attorney present."

How do you interpret that as not expressing a violation of the law? What did the Supreme Court say in their motivations for their decision?

Btw, on what evidentiary/rational elements is your accusation that some doctors (who?) delivered fake HIV results based on?
How are you about unfounded accusations?

I won't go so far as to say the tests were fake, because I don't have proof of that. The statistical odds are against a false positive, though.

As I have said at least twice before, I am not accusing whoever gave her the tests of crimes, only of ethical violations. If it could be determined the test results actually were fake, then I would accuse them of the crime of psychological torture.

The accusations that they violated medical ethics are not unfounded in the least. The very fact that you or anyone here knows that Amanda was administered HIV tests is the proof that her right to doctor-patient confidentiality was violated. According to the only records that exist to describe the situation surrounding the tests (Amanda's book and various media reports), she also did not give informed consent, and she was not provided with counseling, both of which are also breaches of the guidelines recommended by international and European health agencies.

These health agencies do not share your view that prisoners give up their human rights, for example, the right to privacy, once they enter prison. In fact, they advise that prisoners, as members of a vulnerable population of patients, deserve extra protections of their rights. It's in all the links I provided.
 
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Speaking of Andrea Vogt. She's the first to file the story of the complaint the Florence prosecutor is making against Oggi for publishing stuff from Amanda Knox.

This isn't even subtle. Do they have Vogt on speed dial?
 
The 01:45 interrogation was inadmissible (actually: "not-usable") because all interrogations are inadmissible as evidence against the person who released them, in the case for which they were helping the investigation. The 05:45 statement was not-usable *as evidence in a murder trial* because the suspect was not yet assisted by a lawyer. But the statement was collected legally! It was not usable in a trial (by that status - but it could have become usable if she confirmed), but anyway it was usable in an investigation. The non-usability bears absolutely NO implication that the document is illegal. This is an absolute invention. And I not that you still refuse to acept such an obvious legal point.

The highlighted part constitutes a violation. There is no way around it. If it were not illegal, it would have been usable.

Coincidenatlly, Andrea has a brand-spankin'-new blog piece out:

Perugia Prosecutor Files Complaint After Knox Memoir Passages Appear in Italy

From the piece:

The 8-page complaint is addressed to the Prosecutor’s Office in Bergamo (near Milan), where the headquarters of the magazine are located. It cites as slanderous the suggestion that Knox was illegally interrogated and maintains that there is no trial or investigation documentation supporting a number of “affirmations that were never made.” Mignini insists Knox was initially heard by him as a witness with key information relevant to the murder of Meredith Kercher, not as a suspect herself.

Knox never asked for an attorney. She wanted to talk,” Mignini wrote, adding that he did not contest her statements or question her at that time, because she was making a spontaneous declaration regarding Patrick Lumumba’s alleged involvement. (She would later be convicted of slander for falsely blaming the African pub-owner, who spent two weeks in jail before being released).

Speaking of breaking the law, does he know the one that says suspects cannot waive the right to an attorney?
 
Speaking of Andrea Vogt. She's the first to file the story of the complaint the Florence prosecutor is making against Oggi for publishing stuff from Amanda Knox.

This isn't even subtle. Do they have Vogt on speed dial?

From the article:

It makes reference to several other complaints filed in Italy in the wake of publication of Sollecito and Knox’s memoirs, including two in Florence against Sollecito, and another in Verona, where Sollecito is said to have deposited a copy of “Honor Bound” in the university library. Several other legal challenges are said to be giving Harper Collins pause about how widely to make the book available in Europe. The complaints could trigger investigation by Italian authorities into some of the most serious claims made in the pair’s respective memoirs.

Yikes -- Fahrenheit 451, anybody? >shiver< :scared:
 
My mistake. It was Mignini who has Vogt on speed dial. I bet Machiavelli was in this loop.

I do believe the list of people and org's that Mignini HASN'T sued is shorter. He keeps the courts going doesn't he.

And Ms. Vogt is right there. Hmmmmmmm.
 
The argument for the defence of Andrea Vogt is the hypocrite pulpit of the accusers (you). Not the topic itself. Not the statement or else. It's the way in which you use it.
The outrage comes from 1) that you dare to seek a straw in Andrea Vogt's work, cherry pick only a "mistake" that bothers you (so forgetting Vogt's "mistakes" and omissions that went your favor - yes, in favor of Knox) you attempt to use it;

Well, yeah. Just the way the prosecution's allies ignore anything that goes in favor of the defendants, and just the way you have cherry-picked yourself into being convinced of guilt.

2) your attitude of pure hypocrisy with respect to the rest of the press: while your little finger seeks a little straw in the pesky journalist, you accept aand welcome the metric tons of falsehoods, a criminal libelous campaign made that a pletora of journalists vomits on innocent people (from Mignini and Stefanoni to doctors on...).

This is not true. Over the course of six years, there have been hundreds, if not thousands, of news pieces in the international mass media that we have replied to in force when we disagree with them.

The most recent discussion of Andrea just happens to have started with this post by RandyN, following Andrea's last blog contribution. It's not like anybody is singling her out; we have discussed other journalists plenty of times.

How you dare ask someone else to "recant", and you don't recant yourself all your unfounded, unproven or proven false "myths" ("Satanic ritual", "illegal interrogation", refusal of providing data, "lying", all your omissions an the rest of your mobbing smearing machine).

Personally, I never ask people to recant or withdraw; I prefer to prove them wrong, if I think the point is worth arguing.

To me, these details are unimportant in the big picture. The essential question is why the defendants were suspected of the crime when there was no evidence against them.
 
My mistake. It was Mignini who has Vogt on speed dial. I bet Machiavelli was in this loop.

I do believe the list of people and org's that Mignini HASN'T sued is shorter. He keeps the courts going doesn't he.

And Ms. Vogt is right there. Hmmmmmmm.

Yeah, I love this line, Bill: "Reached for comment in Perugia, magistrate Giuliano Mignini confirmed he filed the complaint Thursday..."

More like, "reached for comment across the dinner table...." :D
 
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If Mignini is telling Andrea Vogt that when he interrogated Knox that Knox was still only a witness, why did Mignini in 2010 tell CNN's Drew Griffen that song and dance about being "only a notary"?

Someone should slap Mignini on the back of the head to get his story straight.

It sure won't be Vogt demanding that!
 
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