Religious figures reincarnated (Split from: Pope responds question from atheist)

[Myriad]

I can only speak for myself, but I was born with latent memories I could not explain until I worked out my own past lives. One does not recall everything, only stuff that made a major inprint at the time

Thank you for answering.

This doesn't convince me, for several reasons. One reason is that "latent" memories by definition are memories that one is not aware of until some event or some practice "reveals" it. The problem is, the very same types of events that supposedly reveal latent memories (including hypnosis, interviewing, directed or self-directed visualization, and other meditative rituals) have also been shown by controlled research to be capable of creating such memories with no possible antecedent. A second reason is that memories reported as past life memories are usually filled with anachronisms or known fictions (such as being an Irish potato farmer killed by Vikings, or being burned at the stake as a witch in Salem, or meeting Ben Hur in ancient Rome) commensurate with the quality of the "rememberer's" historical knowledge.

However, even if we accept without skeptical examination that some people mysteriously possess actual memories of long-dead people, what significance does that have for reincarnation? I've read several different biographies of Benjamin Franklin and thereby gained knowledge of Benjamin Franklin's life experiences in far more detail and with far more accuracy than any account of past-life memories I've ever seen. Does that make me Benjamin Franklin? If not, then why do a few stray memories of a past life make someone "the same person reincarnated" instead of a different person who has a few memories of someone else?

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Craig B]

I have identified Joseph and Mary's children as Jesus, James the Younger, Hanna, Veronica, Jacob and Miriam, with the last two being the youngest.

I have some problems with that, I regret to say. They include:

- James and Jacob are the same name. These two names are later separate derivatives of a single Hebrew/Aramaic name.
- What happened to Simon, Joseph and Judas (Matt 13:55)?
- Hanna and Miriam are the same as Anne and Mary. There are altogether too many ladies with these names in Jesus' entourage, but never mind; another two won't do us any harm.

But "Veronica"! Dear me. That is not a Hebrew/Aramaic name. Why not? Because it's not a name at all! It derives from a legend about a woman who gave Jesus a towel to wipe sweat from his face as he was carrying the cross to Calvary. The cloth became miraculously imprinted with his image (natch!) so the woman who gave him the cloth became known (in mixed Latin and Greek) as "vera icon" which simply means "true image". It is NOT originally a personal name.

In several regions of Christendom there is honored under this name a pious matron of Jerusalem who, during the Passion of Christ, as one of the holy women who accompanied Him to Calvary, offered Him a towel on which he left the imprint of His face. ... To distinguish at Rome the oldest and best known of these images it was called vera icon (true image), which ordinary language soon made veronica ... By degrees, popular imagination mistook this word for the name of a person and attached thereto several legends which vary according to the country.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15362a.htm It is therefore impossible that Jesus had a sister of that name, and if you have a reincarnated chum who says otherwise, you are the victim of some kind of sting or swindle, and I want a word with that phony chick!

 

[ddt]

I have identified Joseph and Mary's children as Jesus, James the Younger, Hanna, Veronica, Jacob and Miriam, with the last two being the youngest.
In the 20th century James the Younger was born a male in Europe studied engineering; Hanna was born in Europe as a male studied art; Veronica born in Europe as a female studied medicine, Jacob born in Canada as a male studied engineering; Miriam was born in Canada as a female, a school dropout.
Joseph himself also lived in the 20th c. in Canada, studied engineering.
Although none of them atheist, none of them stayed close to the any church.

Those are rather vague statements. But I note they all allegedly lived in countries with sound records, like civic registries, birth and death records, and university records. Do you have anything which uniquely identifies these people into whom Jesus' siblings allegedly reincarnated?

 

[Kathie Bondar]

I'm pretty sure the "opening posts" were intended as a way to introduce a "book" Kathie has in the market on the subject of "this" thread, a sort of Almanach de Gotha of reincarnations. Fortunately forum members has to wait about a hundred posts before they are allowed to publish web links -a good way to avoid spammers, even the hard ones-.

If Kathie doesn't succeed in the North, she may try here, as we lost yesterday our resident ultra-nice Hungarian new ager (Lilí Sullos -Lenke Süllős- astrologer, the local Linda Goodman) and we may make good use of a new one. Solar signs or souls reincarnated, it doesn't really matter. Let's the amusement go on!

Please do not put words in other people's mouth.
And if you are talking to me or about me, please use my name.
Unlike yourself who has to camouflage himself behind a pseudo identity, I am using my real name real name. I treat people with respect and expect the same in return.

 

[Kathie Bondar]

Those are rather vague statements. But I note they all allegedly lived in countries with sound records, like civic registries, birth and death records, and university records. Do you have anything which uniquely identifies these people into whom Jesus' siblings allegedly reincarnated?

Yes, they are all real people, but privacy protection laws do not permit me to identify them without their permission. For now I chose not to ask them for it.

 

[Craig B]

Yes, they are all real people, but privacy protection laws do not permit me to identify them without their permission. For now I chose not to ask them for it.

You don't need to give their names, of course; but can you please tell us how you have identified a current living person as Jesus' sister "Veronica", for example? On the basis of what evidence have you made this identification?

 

[Kathie Bondar]

Thank you for answering.

This doesn't convince me, for several reasons. One reason is that "latent" memories by definition are memories that one is not aware of until some event or some practice "reveals" it. The problem is, the very same types of events that supposedly reveal latent memories (including hypnosis, interviewing, directed or self-directed visualization, and other meditative rituals) have also been shown by controlled research to be capable of creating such memories with no possible antecedent. A second reason is that memories reported as past life memories are usually filled with anachronisms or known fictions (such as being an Irish potato farmer killed by Vikings, or being burned at the stake as a witch in Salem, or meeting Ben Hur in ancient Rome) commensurate with the quality of the "rememberer's" historical knowledge.

However, even if we accept without skeptical examination that some people mysteriously possess actual memories of long-dead people, what significance does that have for reincarnation? I've read several different biographies of Benjamin Franklin and thereby gained knowledge of Benjamin Franklin's life experiences in far more detail and with far more accuracy than any account of past-life memories I've ever seen. Does that make me Benjamin Franklin? If not, then why do a few stray memories of a past life make someone "the same person reincarnated" instead of a different person who has a few memories of someone else?

Respectfully,
Myriad

Yes, but then sometimes historical records are corrupted or are incomplete, for whatever reasons. My main example is the life of Jesus. He grew up in the house of Herod Antipas and his wife Herodias, yet how little written records are there of that couple? What I have learned of them by telepathy, is that they were a couple of sexual perverts using dogs, among other things...

 

[Agatha]

How can you be sure that what you have learned by 'telepathy' is true, and not (for example) your imagination or some malevolent entity beaming lies into your mind?

 

[ddt]

Yes, they are all real people, but privacy protection laws do not permit me to identify them without their permission. For now I chose not to ask them for it.

Could you cite those laws? You mentioned some of them lived in Europe, which is a big place with 49 different jurisdictions. Frankly, I'm not convinced that privacy protection laws are applicable to your endeavour, whether in North America or in Europe.

And of course, what Craig says. But at the moment I'm not even convinced you reference real existing persons.

 

[aleCcowaN]

Please do not put words in other people's mouth.
And if you are talking to me or about me, please use my name.
Unlike yourself who has to camouflage himself behind a pseudo identity, I am using my real name real name. I treat people with respect and expect the same in return.

That's nonsense, Kathie. You don't respect people and that's by the sole act of talking us BS. If you respected people you would have replied a lot of messages that clearly pointed to fails in your scripted fantasies, like "Veronica" and the dozens of elements that were asked about. From the very beginning you showed a clumsy use of dates, historical and social elements in an even clumsier teleologic fashion.

So far, your posts here are classified in:

• Fantasized stories about "reincarnated" people
• Replies to selected posters by speaking of something different or partial
• Whining about how you are being supposedly mistreated.

everything together with an effort to avoid replying any question that might prove you are not a hack that is making that stuff up as you type it.

It looks you are never going to write here something that justifies your concocted histories, and show at the same time that you write to back your ideas and not just to get attention or money.

Yes, they are all real people, but privacy protection laws do not permit me to identify them without their permission. For now I chose not to ask them for it.

How convenient! That means you can select at random any engineer of engineering student in Canada and tell everybody he is Joseph (or Jacob or Jarred, or Jordan or Jerry) resuscitated.

 

[aleCcowaN]

Yes, but then sometimes historical records are corrupted or are incomplete, for whatever reasons. My main example is the life of Jesus. He grew up in the house of Herod Antipas and his wife Herodias, yet how little written records are there of that couple? What I have learned of them by telepathy, is that they were a couple of sexual perverts using dogs, among other things...

Enough! Stop making up stories! If you don't have money to buy books or you don't want to visit libraries local to you, at least consult Wikipedia before making more ugly mistakes. Herod Antipas married his wife Herodias probably after Jesus' crucifixion -around 33 or 34 A.D.-

Even the stories in the gospels make impossible a Jesus growing up in Herod Antipas + Herodias home.

You told stories like a screenplay writer from Hollywood in the fifties. The kind who was told to have sown more disinformation in 20 years than the whole Middle Ages. Surely, there's a lot of perversion going on in your stories.

 

[ddt]

Enough! Stop making up stories! If you don't have money to buy books or you don't want to visit libraries local to you, at least consult Wikipedia before making more ugly mistakes. Herod Antipas married his wife Herodias probably after Jesus' crucifixion -around 33 or 34 A.D.-

Even the stories in the gospels make impossible a Jesus growing up in Herod Antipas + Herodias home.

Very good point. One nitpick: if we are to believe the gospels, Herod's marriage to Herodias precedes Jesus' crucifixion. The gospels record John the Baptist's death, which was due to his agitation against this - incestuous - marriage, and happened during Jesus' (short) ministry.

Of course, the point remains valid that Jesus never could have been raised in Herod's and Herodias' household.

 

[aggle-rithm]

What I have learned of them by telepathy, is that they were a couple of sexual perverts using dogs, among other things...

...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand you lost me.

 

[Ladewig]

First, a request. And I mean this in the politest possible way.
May I ask you to use fewer pronouns? If you start a post with "They were reincarnated" I have absolutely no idea who you are talking about. It may seem very clear to you, but I have no way of know to which post you are responding. I suspect that many other posters will echo this request (which was made earlier by other posters).

More than 20 years passed since I first got on this strange but interesting bandwagon, and now I had to show that there must be a parallel world where people who are dead to us on earth, must live. This implies two bodies, one that may die and the other that moves on to "where?" Where, but to a parallel world, since I doubt there is really heaven and hell, but certainly there must be some other location we have yet to identify. We do come from somewhere at birth, life simply does not emerge from nothing.

OK, I have some questions about the parallel world.

{1} am I correct in assuming that people don't "die" in this parallel world? Or that they don't "die" until it is time to come back to Earth?

{2} do the people in the other world remember what they did on their most recent Earth-life? Are the millions of innocent people who died at the hands of the Germans about to spend ~1000 years on a planet with Adolf Hitler?

{3} what do people do on this planet? Do they earn a living to buy food and clothing? Or is it less corporeal? Should I expect to find racism or sexism or other bigotries when I cross over?


.........................................
ETA:
Oops. I just realized how silly the question about remembering is. Without such memories, it would be impossible for these "dead" people to recite their "lineages" to people who are asleep.
Oh, the Hitler and his victims thing is becoming even more uncomfortable.

 

[Craig B]

... Herod Antipas and his wife Herodias ... What I have learned of them by telepathy, is that they were a couple of sexual perverts using dogs, among other things...

You are in the habit of receiving telepathic messages about people having sex with dogs? Let me think about that for a while. Meantime, please answer me this: you were the person who received these (bizarre and disquieting) messages. Very well, but who sent them? Not the dogs, I assume.

 

[Pixel42]

You are in the habit of receiving telepathic messages about people having sex with dogs? Let me think about that for a while. Meantime, please answer me this: you were the person who received these (bizarre and disquieting) messages. Very well, but who sent them? Not the dogs, I assume.

People who, although dead in this world, are alive in a parallel one. Jesus, for example. Keep up.

 

[Craig B]

People who, although dead in this world, are alive in a parallel one. Jesus, for example. Keep up.

Of course. Mea culpa!

 

[Myriad]

Yes, but then sometimes historical records are corrupted or are incomplete, for whatever reasons. My main example is the life of Jesus. He grew up in the house of Herod Antipas and his wife Herodias, yet how little written records are there of that couple? What I have learned of them by telepathy, is that they were a couple of sexual perverts using dogs, among other things...

And we called them... The Aristocrats!

But seriously, how do you tell the difference between historical incidents you learn by telepathy, and latent memories of your past lives? Perhaps you've misinterpreted, and you're actually the reincarnation of Mr. or Mrs. Herod or one of their pets.

Actually, of course, there's no chance of that being true; as others have pointed out, it's a good example of the kind of anachronism that pervades most accounts of supposed past lives. So, I still don't find your various claims of past lives, mysterious knowledge of others' past or subsequent lives, and telepathic knowledge at all believable.

All these beliefs of yours seem to have something in common though: a sincere meta-belief on your part that various creative ideas that come to your mind must somehow actually be true facts about the past. But why think that? Assuming your brain has the normal human capability of thinking up fiction, why insult it by insisting that it must only be repeating things it latently remembered or heard telepathically?

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Beelzebuddy]

So you're getting messages from the beyond? From people on a parallel world, or ghosts in your garage, or psychic imprints from a vault inside a run-down fire station in New York?

First off, don't try to obtain accurate historical information. No one cares about that. Nothing important has ever been lost in the sands of time, and anthropologists really just wouldn't care about confirming, say, your spot-on pronunciation of ancient Assyrian despite your untrained background. You certainly couldn't get a cushy job as a translator, if you really were connected to these people.

No, what you should really focus on is diddling Fido. Forget culture and language and technology, who did they have sex with? Inquiring minds want to know!

[ETA] While I'm griping, why's it always Jesus and other big name figures from the past? Why doesn't anyone touch the past lives of people who really didn't matter much in the course of history? Statistically speaking, for every Jesus or Hitler you channel you ought to get thousands of Ungh (the fellow tribesmate with the disagreeable smell who butchers the mastodon).

 

[Kathie Bondar]

And we called them... The Aristocrats!

But seriously, how do you tell the difference between historical incidents you learn by telepathy, and latent memories of your past lives? Perhaps you've misinterpreted, and you're actually the reincarnation of Mr. or Mrs. Herod or one of their pets.

Actually, of course, there's no chance of that being true; as others have pointed out, it's a good example of the kind of anachronism that pervades most accounts of supposed past lives. So, I still don't find your various claims of past lives, mysterious knowledge of others' past or subsequent lives, and telepathic knowledge at all believable.

All these beliefs of yours seem to have something in common though: a sincere meta-belief on your part that various creative ideas that come to your mind must somehow actually be true facts about the past. But why think that? Assuming your brain has the normal human capability of thinking up fiction, why insult it by insisting that it must only be repeating things it latently remembered or heard telepathically?

Respectfully,
Myriad

Nothing mysterious, but the opposite, I am trying here to teach you the method of understanding/interpreting telepathy and dreams.
What I have done with the historical persons, was, recorded and interpreted the dream, then I compared it to the article published about the in Encyclopedia Americana. Of over a hundred such records, there was only one that did not match, that of Thucydides. I double checked it with Encyclopedia Britannica and there it was, a match!