Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[anglolawyer]

In my view, the whole arraignment and pre-trial process in Italy also has fundamental structural flaws, most of which are the direct result of the conflict between the former PM-led inquisitorial system and the present (supposedly) adversarial system.

In the latter system, PMs should be understood to be arguing the prosecution position - there should be no semblance of (or pretence of) objectivity. It is up to the pre-trial courts to hear the prosecution arguments on issues such as prima facie evidence and pre-trial detention, but to then weigh and balance this partisan position against that of the equally-partisan defence team. The court should then issue balanced rulings on these matters accordingly.

Instead, I believe that the legacies of the old inquisitorial system still permeate deep into the fabric of the reactionary Italian judiciary. I think that judges are still heavily inclined to implicitly view the PM's position as the "objective, disinterested, investigative" position, and therefore to take it at something far to close to face value.

And I think that this is exactly what happened in the pre-trial courts in the Knox/Sollecito trials: I think that Riciarelli, Matteini and Micheli all kow-towed to Mignini and Comodi far too readily: "if this is the PM's opinion, then that's good enough for me". It appears that the defence had nary a look-in at these hearings, and that the defence arguments were accorded far, far less weight than those of the PM.

I would give a lot for a readable translation of Micheli. I think (only provisionally, because I get a headache reading the google translation) he was scathingly critical of Mignini's sick fantasies and went his own way, nonetheless grossly over-estimating his own abilities as a detective, like most Italian judges. He decided that the climb was perfectly feasible for someone like Guede, for instance, and as I posted, made a reasonable, common sense ruling on the 'I was there' non-evidence. So I don't see him as a Mignini lapdog like Matteini and Ricarelli were. Mignini dumped Micheli's moving the body theory at the Massei trial, preferring his own bat-**** crazy 11.30 TOD.

It's weird that Barbie recounts attending a birthday party in a bar somewhere in the town attended by lawyers and cops in the case and Micheli! WTF! Can you imagine that here?

 

[Antony]

It's not a libel, since the two current stand provisionally guilty of the murder.

Is that their legal status? I was given to understand that they were still officially innocent until, and if, the final convictions are confirmed.

It therefore passes the "justification" test.

Again, how is it "justified" to declare a defendant guilty while a legal process is going on? Whichever way, even if not technically libel, it is still disgusting.

However...... I immediately baulk at the sort of declarative sentence that purports to state "the truth" in this way. To me, it's a clear indication that the author of the sentence is not capable of objective, logical analysis - rather that (s)he is over-invested in a dogmatic belief*.

Instead, it would be acceptable (but incorrect, in my opinion) to state something along the lines of: "In my view, there exists more than enough evidence to find Knox/Sollecito guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of the murder", or even something shorter like: "In my view, they are murderers".

Put this way, the point might seem open to discussion, but of course discussion has turned out to be a futile and frustrating activity. We already know Mach's views on the subject which it seems are not open to examination on his part.

* Note that in my view this would also apply to anyone other than Knox or Sollecito (or Guede) making statements to the effect of: "The truth is that they are innocent of the murder".

This was Rose Montagu's statement, but that is more justified than Mach's because there are facts to back it up.

 

[Antony]

Hoffman's "articles" on this case are not worthy of being called journalism: they are partisan waffle (it would be massively over-crediting them to call them op-ed pieces), written by someone who has a clear ulterior motive and a fixation on disparaging Amanda Knox.

Oh, and they're really dreadfully written as well. I think we can all be pretty certain that this woman won't be appearing in mainstream print anytime soon...

There is also an article by her on the same site making accusations and innuendo against the parents of Madeleine McCann. Utterly contemptible.

 

[Diocletus]

I would give a lot for a readable translation of Micheli. I think (only provisionally, because I get a headache reading the google translation) he was scathingly critical of Mignini's sick fantasies and went his own way, nonetheless grossly over-estimating his own abilities as a detective, like most Italian judges. He decided that the climb was perfectly feasible for someone like Guede, for instance, and as I posted, made a reasonable, common sense ruling on the 'I was there' non-evidence. So I don't see him as a Mignini lapdog like Matteini and Ricarelli were. Mignini dumped Micheli's moving the body theory at the Massei trial, preferring his own bat-**** crazy 11.30 TOD.

It's weird that Barbie recounts attending a birthday party in a bar somewhere in the town attended by lawyers and cops in the case and Micheli! WTF! Can you imagine that here?

They really do fancy themselves a bunch of Perry Masons don't they? And they don't let the facts get in the way, either.

 

[Briars]

C',mon, everything about the drug addled junkie doesn't wash. How many people do you know who have been witnesses in three murder trials outside of gangsters? A homeless bum who was not coherent. Whose testimony both contradicts the facts like the difference between Halloween and the day after as well as the logic of this couple in the middle of some kind of murder standing outside for hours watching a gate?

Toto's testimony should have been buried with the old bum.

The only person in the square for hours was Curatolo, The defendants came and went. Someone upthread brought up the kiosk being glass, meaning great view. It is glass but the sides have magazines displayed to the ceiling blocking all visibility.The back has the metal caseing that closes on all four sides after operation. There is an opening in the front where customers come with no view of the bench or railing. I heard Curatolo in his interview he is coherent. The journalist who wrote about him after his death certainly respected and valued the man despite his shortcomings. I have no reason to believe he lied unlike the defendants who continue to make up stories.

 

[Grinder]

Life wasn't routine for them yet surely. What is difficult to understand that Curatolo could have observed them before the first visit to the cottage at 9:30? They run or leave the cottage by 10:30 and are seen later anxiously watching for the tow truck to leave before returning to cleanup after 11:30 Even if you don't believe they were involved there is nothing wrong with that time frame which fits with when Curatolo said he saw them.

Well Nara's "best guess" was later. That's a big reason Mig moved the TOD from the early leaked times. Did they wash off in the minute or two between the scream and the running feet? Why would they run if they took the time to clean up?

So they are torturing Meredith and she screams while her system still can. By all accounts she lost that ability before the fatal wound was inflicted. They would have had blood all over them as Rudy said. It would have taken time to clean body and clothes enough to go out. By that time why would they run? To call attention to themselves?

The car/tow truck was there from 10:30 to 11:15. You have them running out as the car broke down and then deciding they needed to go back as soon as possible, why? There was no evidence of a clean up.

Neither witness is credible. Neither came forward in a timely manner. Neither got the date correct. One was a heroin addict on smack that night. Both came forward to the media and we don't know if they were paid or just wanted the fame of helping convict the American.

If it were possible, rather than the sound test I'd like to put two people at the edge of the park with their backs turned to Curatolo's bench and see if he could pick them out of a line up.

Your scenario makes no sense.

ETA - now Rudy's story makes sense. He was there when she died. He had blood on himselve and cleaned it and then put a sweatshirt over the pants and headed back to his place to change and then went out to a local (no buses) disco for a bit more of a alibi. That makes me wonder at what time he was observed there as at this moment I don't remember. Why didn't he stand somewhere with his bloodiness and knife watching?

 

[Dan O.]

Is that their legal status? I was given to understand that they were still officially innocent until, and if, the final convictions are confirmed.

That's the standard that applies to authority figures like Mignini. But apparently they have a different standard for everybody else.

 

[acbytesla]

Oh, and they're really dreadfully written as well. I think we can all be pretty certain that this woman won't be appearing in mainstream print anytime soon...

There is also an article by her on the same site making accusations and innuendo against the parents of Madeleine McCann. Utterly contemptible.

Chelsea has been printing these trash articles for as long as I can remember. And pretty much every article I've read of hers she stops just short of saying that Amanda and Raffaele were involved in killing Meredith. But she prints lies and innuendo painting them as guilty consistently.

Unfortunately LJ is wrong, Chelsea often writes articles that appear in the mainstream press. She is a frequent contributor to the Huffington Post of all places. But I've never seen any of her articles about Amanda in anything mainstream.

 

[acbytesla]

The only person in the square for hours was Curatolo, The defendants came and went. Someone upthread brought up the kiosk being glass, meaning great view. It is glass but the sides have magazines displayed to the ceiling blocking all visibility.The back has the metal caseing that closes on all four sides after operation. There is an opening in the front where customers come with no view of the bench or railing. I heard Curatolo in his interview he is coherent. The journalist who wrote about him after his death certainly respected and valued the man despite his shortcomings. I have no reason to believe he lied unlike the defendants who continue to make up stories.

What? Give me a break!!! Amanda and Raffaele have told the SAME STORY EVERY TIME BUT ONCE, by Amanda. And of course that is the one that wasn't taped, done in the middle of the night after significant sleep deprivation and intimidation. Raffaele has told the same story every single time.

But you think a drug addled homeless junkie and drug dealer who had been in and out of jail his entire life and has a reputation of being a police stooge is credible?
I'm sure Toto on occasion was lucid, but he certainly wasn't when he appeared in front of Hellman. My guess is that Toto lied both for the attention and probably for more than a few free meals.

 

[acbytesla]

Well Nara's "best guess" was later. That's a big reason Mig moved the TOD from the early leaked times. Did they wash off in the minute or two between the scream and the running feet? Why would they run if they took the time to clean up?

So they are torturing Meredith and she screams while her system still can. By all accounts she lost that ability before the fatal wound was inflicted. They would have had blood all over them as Rudy said. It would have taken time to clean body and clothes enough to go out. By that time why would they run? To call attention to themselves?

The car/tow truck was there from 10:30 to 11:15. You have them running out as the car broke down and then deciding they needed to go back as soon as possible, why? There was no evidence of a clean up.

Neither witness is credible. Neither came forward in a timely manner. Neither got the date correct. One was a heroin addict on smack that night. Both came forward to the media and we don't know if they were paid or just wanted the fame of helping convict the American.

If it were possible, rather than the sound test I'd like to put two people at the edge of the park with their backs turned to Curatolo's bench and see if he could pick them out of a line up.

Your scenario makes no sense.

I think the fact that he came forward to the media first is important. Remember Toto didn't pick either of them out of a lineup. I have to wonder if he ever described the clothes that this couple who were supposedly standing by the fence? People should also remember that this was between 9:30 and 11:00 oclock at night. Would he really been able to make out the facial features of any body from a distance of 20 or 40 feet?

Seriously, if there is homeless guy who almost certainly stinks tremendously and could have mental problems are you going to stand anywhere near him? At night??

Give me a break. Even if Toto saw a couple standing for a few minutes against the fence, there is no way in hell he could reliably id who they were.

 

[Dan O.]

It's amazing how Mignini's minions have to continuously change their story to keep from being fouled by the facts. They say the square was full of people in costumes waiting for the disco busses but then to account for there being no other witnesses to back up the heroin addict bum's story there is nobody else there.

 

[Welshman]

This is a summary of the things which have been done to Amanda and Raffaele :-

* The police decided immediately after the discovery of the body that Amanda and Raffaele were guilty before the forensic evidence was analysed.
* They were interrogated without access to lawyers.
* The interrogations were not recorded.
* Callunia charges were pressed against Amanda and her parents for speaking out against the abuse Amanda suffered during the interrogation.
* The police and prosecution got away with telling numerous lies.
* The police got away with suppressing evidence.
* Defense requests were turned down eg the EDF files.
* Amanda and Raffaele were convicted on dubious forensic eg a knife which did not match the wounds.
* Amanda and Raffaele had to wait a year before their trial and the first trial lasted a year.
* The supreme court judged on evidence rather than the application of the law and used ludicrious arguments to justify sending the case back to trial.


Despite the above Machiavelli and other guilters claim the Italian justice system is pro-defendant. What planet are these people living on?

 

[LondonJohn]

Chelsea has been printing these trash articles for as long as I can remember. And pretty much every article I've read of hers she stops just short of saying that Amanda and Raffaele were involved in killing Meredith. But she prints lies and innuendo painting them as guilty consistently.

Unfortunately LJ is wrong, Chelsea often writes articles that appear in the mainstream press. She is a frequent contributor to the Huffington Post of all places. But I've never seen any of her articles about Amanda in anything mainstream.

I most definitely would not call the Huffington Post the mainstream press. And her "articles" appear to be strictly confined to Gather.com (from which she was suspended for a while), Examiner.com, HuffPo.com and her own website. Not that there's anything wrong with that of course, but she's not a responsible journalist. And she won't be appearing in the Washington Post or on BBC America any time soon...

If she were offering informed, informative commentary on the case then she could be classified as a decent citizen-journalist. However, she's offering nothing more than emotionally-invested invective. She's not worth respecting or bothering about, in my opinion.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

defendant-unfriendly

The truth is they are two murderers. If courts will take 8+ years to reach the obvious conclusion - during which most of this time the defendants will be free - this only shows how cautious and pro-defendant the system is. Just my opinion, btw.

The evidence used to hold them in precautionary detention was false, and Mignini may not even have bothered to file the correct paperwork. None of this seems to have trouble Matteini. Almost six years into the case, and discovery has still not happened: no electronic data files, missing egrams, no controls, etc. PM Mignini was allowed to change the TOD and to make up words to put into Amanda's mouth in his closing remarks. Defendants and their families hit with suits, while incompetence or worse within ILE gets rewarded, not punished. Your comment would be risible if the consequences were less serious. MOO.

 

[LondonJohn]

As an addendum, this recent tweet of Hoffman's should provide all the information anyone needs to make an informed assessment of her journalistic objectivity regarding Knox (not to mention her underlying morality and gravitas...):

Chelsea Hoffman ‏@TheRealChelseaH 8h
Either she's a sicko or she's completely socially #retarded #AmandaKnox #Seattle #Washington #Justice4MeredithKercher

 

[Chris_Halkides]

withholding the clicks

As an addendum, this recent tweet of Hoffman's should provide all the information anyone needs to make an informed assessment of her journalistic objectivity regarding Knox (not to mention her underlying morality and gravitas...):

My understanding is that one gets paid by the click at Gather. Not sure about other places. I won't click on anything she writes. She has no capacity to learn, and no insights whatsoever.

 

[Grinder]

As an addendum, this recent tweet of Hoffman's should provide all the information anyone needs to make an informed assessment of her journalistic objectivity regarding Knox (not to mention her underlying morality and gravitas...):

My understanding is that one gets paid by the click at Gather. Not sure about other places. I won't click on anything she writes. She has no capacity to learn, and no insights whatsoever.

There really are no suitable words in the proper English language to describe this... well there you have it.

 

[acbytesla]

I most definitely would not call the Huffington Post the mainstream press. And her "articles" appear to be strictly confined to Gather.com (from which she was suspended for a while), Examiner.com, HuffPo.com and her own website. Not that there's anything wrong with that of course, but she's not a responsible journalist. And she won't be appearing in the Washington Post or on BBC America any time soon...

If she were offering informed, informative commentary on the case then she could be classified as a decent citizen-journalist. However, she's offering nothing more than emotionally-invested invective. She's not worth respecting or bothering about, in my opinion.

Well, it's not the New York Times or the Guardian, but the Huffington Post does generate a very significant amount of traffic. But I'm not trying to defend Chelsea. I can't stand her.

 

[LondonJohn]

Well, it's not the New York Times or the Guardian, but the Huffington Post does generate a very significant amount of traffic. But I'm not trying to defend Chelsea. I can't stand her.

Liveleak and Popbitch generate significant amounts of traffic too. That doesn't mean they should be classified as mainstream media outlets though. They can be useful and informative sources at times, of course, but they should never be trusted at face value.

In any case, my main point when talking about mainstream media outlets was that the quality of Hoffman's writing is so poor that no editor of any serious outlet would let that sort of copy go out. It's not even so much about the ill-informed, partisan, sneering, nasty stance she's taking on Amanda Knox or any other subject: there are constantly opinion pieces published in the mainstream media that have similar traits. It's just that those pieces are generally written by people with some flair for (and talent for) writing copy.

 

[RandyN]

You said your thought is ToD was early, 10:15 , I agree it was earlier +/-15min. Thats what Hellman stated too. It's much more supported than the prosecutions 11-11:30.

I agree, all things are open between 9:10pm Raffaeles last pc activity, and 10:13pm. Sure, if you choose Toto as being credible it does align better than the muck Migninni seemed to spew.

The earlier ToD makes the screams irrelevant even more, at 11 or 11:30... it doesn't matter. The "blind witnesses" saw nothing, and didn't know when they heard anything. And footsteps on the iron stairs means nothing as its so common.

Raffaele has only a 9:10pm pc activity alibi and thanks to the bumbling polizia, critical evidence was destroyed. What if there were pc activity at 9:28, 10:14, etc..etc.. would that have been enough?

Disturbing is the same polizia Monica Napoleoni, was recently suspended for dishonest associated to computer illegality's in Perugia....Migninni being convicted in Florence, for abuse of power, wire taps, breaking the law...a few others were involved in the recent computer foul play of the Questura.....many things seem foul in this Questura that has no budget to record Interrogations, but can record everything else whenever they want, even 10,000 phone calls...

Could it be that's why they didn't do DNA on the semen looking stain, in a rape murder, from a item in the murder scene, because of the budget issues?

Great post...let me tidy up a few things though...RS has the 9:10 computer interaction alibi ...I am fairly certain they also have a 9:26 Narturo action. Plus he has the rock solid alibi of AK.The 10,000 tapped phone calls was actually 30 thousand tapped phone calls.

Lets hope the defense demands independent computer review this time.
Lets hope someone on the defense asks why this interrogation evidence keeps coming up in trial when it was clearly ruled inadmissible by the SC in the first trial...and yet even they use that "inadmissible evidence" to come to their conclusion to overturn the defendants acquittal. Its that Italian "logic" again.