LDS

Status
Not open for further replies.
Janadele said:
Those whose preconceived ideas and prejudices lead them to scorn and ridicule can never receive understanding nor meaning, nor will the Spirit of the Lord abide with them nor open their mind to understanding and knowledge.
Click to expand...

You have tried this approach before. "If you beleived, then you would see why you should beleive" only works if you are willing to posutlate a coyote-'god' which gets its kicks making its creations jump through arbitrary hoops.
 
Janadele said:
This thread is to present and explain LDS beliefs, teachings and doctrines, not to abuse and denigrate them. No one has, or is, being forced to participate in this LDS thread.
Click to expand...

Failure on all fronts then...
 
Janadele said:
Jesus The Christ by James E. Talmage an Apostle, Seer and Revelator of the Lord, was written by inspiration within the walls of the Salt Lake Temple, published and endorsed by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and approved by the First Presidency.
One can learn the wonders and meaning of life within it's pages.
Click to expand...

Did he use the rock in the hat method?
 
Janadele said:
Jesus The Christ by James E. Talmage an Apostle, Seer and Revelator of the Lord, was written by inspiration within the walls of the Salt Lake Temple, published and endorsed by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and approved by the First Presidency.
One can learn the wonders and meaning of life within it's pages.
Click to expand...

Did he ever learn to read Egyptian hieroglyphics?
 
Janadele -

Only a friend will tell you these things.

Some of your posts seem like they come from a "Star Trek" Script.

Unfortuneately, some of your answers are very "robotic". It's a little "creepy".
 
And Janadele, I am NOT saying you are creepy.

Only that, the way you seemingly, mindlessly answer your prepared, canned, church approved answers, is just sad.

I would think you'd want to "attract" people to your church. Not put them off it forever.
 
Last edited:
Foster Zygote said:
Skyrider44, now that the off-topic discussion of atheism has been split off to the proper thread, can we address the issue of the problems with the Book Of Abraham? I'm afraid that you've been giving the appearance of being unwilling to engage in this discussion.
Click to expand...

As I noted in an earlier post, two previous responses to FZ went "poof," for which I received a warning for scrambling words in one of the posts. All I was trying to do was to retrieve at least one of my posts.

Some background information about me will be helpful. I was "born under the covenant" (parents had been married in the temple). I was baptized a member of the LDS Church at age 8, and I received the Aaronic Priesthood at age 12 and subsequently became a deacon, teacher, and priest. I received the Melchizedek Priesthood at age 18, whereupon I was ordained an elder, and--years later--a high priest. I didn't serve a mission, but I have held many offices, including a member of a bishopric and a high council. My wife and I have sent our three sons on missions.

I am well acquainted with problems in LDS historicity, having read extensively in anti-LDS literature--from the illegal sacking of the Nauvoo Expositor to the current claims that Joseph Smith's BA is a fraud based on an analysis of some recovered papyrus he used in the claimed translation that makes no mention whatever of Abraham. The critics posit that circumstance casts doubt on the authenticity of the BoM itself and of Joseph Smith's claim to be a prophet.

I think many LDS are disturbed by the BA development, as well as by DNA findings involving "Lamanites." You (and others) seek a direct, forthright answer from me re. the BA. My answer is simply this: I don't know. To my knowledge, the Church has not issued a statement re. the BA, and I am not inclined to second-guess the Church.

You may think my answer is a dodge; it is not. Having spent a long lifetime in the Church, and having witnessed the power of the priesthood to work modern-day miracles, I will remain a faithful, obedient member. You will consider that irrational in light of evidence that has surfaced. But you haven't lived the life I have lived; you haven't had the spiritual experiences I have had; you haven't seen the power of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to change lives in the way I have.

Moreover, many of you believe that through the finite senses humans possess they can know everything. I don't believe that, and frankly I find it an arrogant assumption.

Finally, I have faith that it's possible for men and women of goodwill to disagree without being disagreeable. Some of the things said about the Church, its leaders, and its members on this forum are beyond the pale and have no place in civil discourse.

So, there you have it. Make of it what you will.
 
Last edited:
skyrider44 said:
As I noted in an earlier post, two previous responses to FZ went "poof," for which I received a warning for scrambling words in one of the posts. All I was trying to do was to retrieve at least one of my posts.

Some background information about me will be helpful. I was "born under the covenant" (parents had been married in the temple). I was baptized a member of the LDS Church at age 8, and I received the Aaronic Priesthood at age 12 and subsequently became a deacon, teacher, and priest. I received the Melchizedek Priesthood at age 18, whereupon I was ordained an elder, and--years later--a high priest. I didn't serve a mission, but I have held many offices, including a member of a bishopric and a high council. My wife and I have sent our three sons on missions.

I am well acquainted with problems in LDS historicity, having read extensively in anti-LDS literature--from the illegal sacking of the Nauvoo Expositor to the current claims that Joseph Smith's BA is a fraud based on an analysis of some recovered papyrus he used in the claimed translation that makes no mention whatever of Abraham. The critics posit that circumstance casts doubt on the authenticity of the BoM itself and of Joseph Smith's claim to be a prophet.

I think many LDS are disturbed by the BA development, as well as by DNA findings involving "Lamanites." You (and others) seek a direct, forthright answer from me re. the BA. My answer is simply this: I don't know. To my knowledge, the Church has not issued a statement re. the BA, and I am not inclined to second-guess the Church.

You may think my answer is a dodge; it is not. Having spent a long lifetime in the Church, and having witnessed the power of the priesthood to work modern-day miracles, I will remain a faithful, obedient member. You will consider that irrational in light of evidence that has surfaced. But you haven't lived the life I have lived; you haven't had the spiritual experiences I have had; you haven't seen the power of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to change lives in the way I have.

Moreover, many of you believe that through the finite senses humans possess they can know everything. I don't believe that, and frankly I find it an arrogant assumption.

Finally, I have faith that it's possible for men and women of goodwill to disagree without being disagreeable. Some of the things said about the Church, its leaders, and its members on this forum are beyond the pale and have no place in civil discourse.

So, there you have it. Make of it what you will.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that. This helps move the conversation forward.

My take
1. Not making a decision is a dodge. I respect your unwillingness to contradict your church, but doesn't that seem like an odd position to take? Why would you need someone else to tell you how to interpret the truth? When presented with information, I am able to come to my own conclusions. In cases where the evidence is lean or uncertain, I will withhold judgement. But in this case, we have all the evidence we need. Don't we? To ask another way, what other information could exist that would make the BoA not a fraud?

2. I recognize that you hold to your faith because of your witnessing of miracles. Interestingly, I have many other people who told me the same thing of Islam, Catholicism, Wiccan. Yet, all of those believe in fundamentally contradictory things. Which suggests to me that there is something else going on that has nothing at all to do with the faith the person prescribes to. And let's face it, if these miracles were reliable, we would have no need for western medicine. To put in another way, the success rate of modern medicine continues to improve. The success rate of miracles remains horribly poor. And there exists no method to improve the miracle rate. Why Would one put faith in miracles when they fail way more times than they work?

3. You speak of arrogance, yet you are the one claiming to have mystical knowledge we do not have. Let's not get down this track, as I do not see it as fruitful, but please don't claim to have experienced things we mere mortals couldn't fathom, and then go on to call us arrogant for only talking about things that can be supported by evidence.
 
skyrider44 said:
Moreover, many of you believe that through the finite senses humans possess they can know everything. I don't believe that, and frankly I find it an arrogant assumption.
Click to expand...
I haven't seen anyone indicate such a belief, but I will be the first to say the finite senses humans possess are the only way to know anything. They are what connect us to the universe we live in and they are the only means we have of knowing anything about that universe.
 
Moreover, many of you believe that through the finite senses humans possess they can know everything. I don't believe that, and frankly I find it an arrogant assumption.
Click to expand...
I'm a scientist of sorts, and I don't believe that either. It is just one of those straw men that religions put up to make it look like scientists in general are fools.

It certainly would be arrogant for anyone to think that man can ever "know everything." What we know comes to us through our senses, but there are many forces in nature that we need tools of technology to detect, like UV, IR, Gamma, X-rays, etc. and convert to what we can sense. Once we sense it or somehow experience it, then it is no longer "supernatural", but just part of nature---natural.
 
Last edited:
Olowkow said:
I'm a scientist of sorts, and I don't believe that either. It is just one of those straw men that religions put up to make it look like scientists in general are fools.
Click to expand...

Exactly. In fact, science is so aware of the fact that our senses can be unreliable, we come up with strategies to minimize this type of error. It is why we have blind, double blind studies.

And, to point out, it is interesting that miracles never seem to exist when they are studied in a well controlled manner. It is almost as if they are a product of our limited,fallible senses.
 
I have never heard of a "miracle" that violates physical laws, nor any miracle that cannot be accounted for by natural explanations such as a claimed cure resulting from spontaneous remission. There are no miraculous limbs regrown, or congenital blindness cured.

I am certain that we at JREF are all eager to hear of accounts of even one single miracle that could not possibly have resulted from purely natural means.
 
Last edited:
joobz said:
Thank you for that. This helps move the conversation forward.
Click to expand...

You're welcome.

Why would you need someone else to tell you how to interpret the truth?
Click to expand...

To a faithful Latter-day Saint, the Church isn't simply "someone else."

I recognize that you hold to your faith because of your witnessing of miracles. Interestingly, I have many other people who told me the same thing of Islam, Catholicism, Wiccan. Yet, all of those believe in fundamentally contradictory things.
Click to expand...

But they recognize--and honor--the existence of Deity.

You speak of arrogance, yet you are the one claiming to have mystical knowledge we do not have.
Click to expand...

That isn't what I claimed. I said that because human beings are limited to a finite number of senses (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste) it is arrogant for them to believe they can know everything that exists in the universe. I wasn't referring specifically to you but to humankind in general. I made no claim about having "mystical knowledge" you don't have.
 
That isn't what I claimed. I said that because human beings are limited to a finite number of senses (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste) it is arrogant for them to believe they can know everything that exists in the universe. I wasn't referring specifically to you but to humankind in general. I made no claim about having "mystical knowledge" you don't have.
Click to expand...
Only a fool would claim such a thing. The complete nature of the universe is probably ultimately unknowable. There are a lot of people who claim they can achieve "free energy" and perpetual motion also. Just because a bunch of uneducated nuts that you view as "mankind" claim something doesn't mean that it's interesting or worth worrying about.

Our senses have been extended in ways that are almost unimaginable. Even now, we are discovering that the matter that makes up everything we know is a very trivial part of the universe.

ETA: Knowledge of how to ask what you consider to be the creator of the universe for help or a cure for a health problem is by definition "mystical knowledge". If you do not claim that you have it, then you are an atheist. You don't believe in a god. It's just that simple.

And we have a lot more than just the 5 senses that everyone thinks of.
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/07/humans-have-a-lot-more-than-five-senses/
 
Last edited:
skyrider44 said:
To a faithful Latter-day Saint, the Church isn't simply "someone else."
Click to expand...
Correct, It's a collection of someone elses. Someone else just means a person other than you
So why would you need a person other than you to interpret the truth?
How do you decide whom you would trust to do the interpreting?
If I were to offer to be your interpreter, would you accept, and if not, why not?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom