Tony Szamboti Publishes a Technical Paper about 9/11 Truth

[JSanderO]

...)

Try this one - Where/when did the air pressure pulse occur in sequence relative to the progression of floor disconnects?

So was it likely to be significant in "blowing out" the outer perimeter sheets of columns?

My sense is the air thing has really been ignored and I suspect it's quite interesting and a force provider which is being ignored or missed.

The collapse of the tower involved moving a quarter mile 200'x200' column of air which was displaced and replaced in about 10 seconds. As the collapse drove down... it WAS like a piston pushing the air out of the way. Each slab it encountered functioned like a piston head and the air between slabs was like the air inside of the cylinder being compressed from above... pressing at the slab below, the core and of course the facade. That 18,000 cu yards of air between each slab was forced out of the way in about 0.1 seconds and some of that air moved at speeds well over 200 mph. The pressure experience at the facade must have been very high... don't know how to calculate it... but I suspect it cause the facade to bulge a but and begin to break the bolted connections and it DID cause all the materials on the floor to be ejected through the weak windows (weak to that sort of over pressure)

And then there's the air which comes in to fill the low pressure volume that the collapse front creates... like water rushing down a drain when the stopper is removed... hundreds of thousands of cu yards of air rushed in over the descending collapse "front" and when it reach ground it became heated by/from the hot debris and fires and spread out in all directions and as it was hot billowed up into massive dust laden clouds like hot thunderhead cumulus clouds do.

Ask Bernoulli what was going on...

 

[ozeco41]

My sense is the air thing has really been ignored and I suspect it's quite interesting and a force provider which is being ignored or missed....

It is an interesting exercise to try to think through the sequencing.

I haven't a clue as to the likely pulse pressure. And it would peak, putting outwards tension on the floor joists, just before the falling mess/mass sheared the joist connectors. So two questions arise which is why I posed the bit of a thought challenge.



PS Ooops...that is three questions.

 

[JSanderO]

Air pressure and how it would be a force in play seems quite about outside the realm of most engineer who deal with static loads. We're talking fluid dynamics and the fluid behavior is not withing a confined bounded space as it would be in a pipe or a nozzle or a cylinder for example.

The facade does act like the cylinder walls and the slab does act like a piston... But above that is the column of air moving down and into/behind the crush front and this is a lot of air. Wind pressure is pretty intense as we see from hurricanes... We don't see any calculations or consideration for the destructive for of the air pressure in the twin tower collapses. Do we?

 

[LashL]

Another batch of posts have been dumped to Abandon All Hope. The topic, folks! Please stick to it. The topic is not 'false flags' or politics or Steven Jones' paper or each other. Also, please keep your Membership Agreement in mind while posting: be civil and polite; address the argument rather than attacking the arguer; and again, stick to the topic. Failing to do so will result in further moderation which may include infractions, suspensions, and even banning. Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

 

[jaydeehess]

It is an interesting exercise to try to think through the sequencing.

I haven't a clue as to the likely pulse pressure. And it would peak, putting outwards tension on the floor joists, just before the falling mess/mass sheared the joist connectors. So two questions arise which is why I posed the bit of a thought challenge.



PS Ooops...that is three questions.

While I don't think that the compressing air would be enough to break bolted or welded connections by itself, it would as you say, result in an outward force peaking shortly before internal connections are severed by falling debris mass.
It is also rather messy. Witness the expulsions of debris well ahead of the exterior collapse, the so called 'squibs'. This indicates local floor failures occurring well ahead of the collapse front. That means a 'piston' is not really in effect, though it mat be useful as an approximation of reality.
Another mechanism that would reduce the 'piston' effect is the fact that the debris itself is not a solid object. Compressing air can then also be forced 'up'(wrt the collapse front) within the debris and contributing to the expulsion of lighter objects within the falling debris mass.

Iirc there are stills and frames of video showing what looks like upward expulsions of debris(wrt the moving top of the debris once the upper section disappears into that cloud). This would suggest pressurized air moving through that debris cloud.( the piston has a hole in it). In fact we also know(deeply suspect) that the core destruction lagged the floor and perimeter destruction, which gives a path by which air can escape 'upward', via the elevator shafts

 

[ozeco41]

^^^ That discusses two of my three questions. But not the "third question" which was actually the first one that I hinted at in the earlier post.



...but we are drifting into "progression" whilst the FOS and related issues are "initiation" stage.


...and the answer to the fourth question is "not yet".

 

[ozeco41]

My sense is the air thing has really been ignored and I suspect it's quite interesting and a force provider which is being ignored or missed....

Yes to all three.

Wind pressure is pretty intense as we see from hurricanes... We don't see any calculations or consideration for the destructive for of the air pressure in the twin tower collapses. Do we?

Back in my earlier days it was IIRC 15 psf for a 70mph design wind around this part of AU - more "up north" in cyclone territory. And that is more than 40years back because I said "psf" and "mph" and we have been metric for ~40 years.

BUT ~15 for 70mph and it rises exponentially so possibly >>200psf for ~200 mph - and that is for wind - not air more or less constrained in a "leaky cylinder" by a not so leaky piston.

 

[JSanderO]

I did the attached table... not sure if it's correct... but if it is the forces get pretty large.

 

[ozeco41]

I did the attached table... not sure if it's correct... but if it is the forces get pretty large.

It is probably correct because it lines up - same "ballpark" - with my guess of 200psf at 200mph


[/smugsmartarse]

 

[Jetblast]

Air pressure and how it would be a force in play seems quite about outside the realm of most engineer who deal with static loads. We're talking fluid dynamics and the fluid behavior is not withing a confined bounded space as it would be in a pipe or a nozzle or a cylinder for example.

The facade does act like the cylinder walls and the slab does act like a piston... But above that is the column of air moving down and into/behind the crush front and this is a lot of air. Wind pressure is pretty intense as we see from hurricanes... We don't see any calculations or consideration for the destructive for of the air pressure in the twin tower collapses. Do we?

This is the problem I have with Szamboti is he doesn't take into consideration either pneumatic air blasts from the rammed steel and concrete floor pads or the furnace effect of the 23mph NW wind stoking the fires in the channeled confines of the Tower. Both these things are very valid scientifically and would have had a serious affect on the collapses yet they are given no heed by those doing the figuring.

They say the pads crumbled and therefore had no force, however there is a split second in the process where the surface area of the steel pad with tons of force above created extreme pneumatic pressure that resulted in serious forces capable of having serious impact on the collapse.

What Szamboti doesn't realize with his 2 dimensional thinking is that his expected deceleration could be transformed under the right conditions into other outlets that transformed the potential energy of the structures involved into explosive forces that resulted in the collapse that was seen. 3 dimensional dynamic thinking allows that the particular design of the hanging floor pads could create conditions where the expected static resistance was quickly converted to force. The pneumatic air blasts are key because they are the wild card catalyst that created the forces that broke the inner core's static resistance and caused the weight of the Tower to work against itself in a gravity-driven event.

Another problem I have is the molten steel. You have to have a model showing how thermite kept the steel molten for 8 weeks. You see the molten steel was subject to the same scientific conditions that any molten steel would require. Obviously there was both a heat source and insulation factor to keep the steel molten. But how does thermite work into that? Sure you can say thermite was responsible but you still have to provide a scientific mechanism to explain it. If you look at the nature of thermite it burns violently in about 30 seconds. So how could that molten steel be kept hot by thermite? If there was thermite in the dust in the pile, fires hot enough to keep steel molten would have burned up the thermite. More likely there was yet another furnace effect happening in the pile where the debris and dust was flammable enough to keep the inner pile hot enough to reproduce furnace conditions oxygenated by the PATH Train tunnels under the Plaza and drafted by the heat of the fires.

 

[Jetblast]

Witness the expulsions of debris well ahead of the exterior collapse, the so called 'squibs'. This indicates local floor failures occurring well ahead of the collapse front.

Maybe not. It could be indicating elevator shaft terminuses or ductwork that channeled quickly-escaping pneumatic blasts outward through a path of least resistance. I'd bet that a more sophisticated analysis of those isolated puffs would show there were elevator shaft features or ducts that accounted for their appearance at those specific locations.

If you're wise you'll understand that those errant puffs are evidence of extreme pneumatic air blast forces during the collapse. They can't be local floor failures ahead of the collapse front because they would have blasted in a floor-width manner.


In my opinion those global floor collapse bursts well ahead of the collapse front are evidence that the extreme forces of the top section were uniquely channeled through the unsupported void of the floor sections just like a gun barrel guides the explosive force of a gunshot through the path of least resistance in a gun barrel. What the floor collapses well ahead of the collapse tell you is pneumatic pressure acted in an accelerated manner pushing the floor collapse down the 'barrel' at a speed ahead of the main collapse. This is a very valid phenomenon evidenced in the collapse that Szamboti simply calls nonsense and surrenders his credibility in the process. It is the force that accounts for the destruction of the core and separation of the floor pads. Szamboti is clueless to the dymanics involved in this that would convert the static resistance of the core into an accelerated downward force in an uneven dynamic caused by the differential between the firm core and unsupported floor pads. If you have a more sophisticated understanding of the complex dynamics involved Szamboti's expected deceleration has been converted into runaway floor collapse by this model. Simply put, the void of the unsupported floor pads absorbed and redistributed Szamboti's deceleration into this particular energy distribution outlet. Szamboti calls this nonsense because he can't answer it.

 

[ozeco41]

Maybe not. It could be indicating elevator shaft terminuses or ductwork that channeled quickly-escaping pneumatic blasts outward through a path of least resistance. I'd bet that a more sophisticated analysis of those isolated puffs would show there were elevator shaft features or ducts that accounted for their appearance at those specific locations.

If you're wise you'll understand that those errant puffs are evidence of extreme pneumatic air blast forces during the collapse. They can't be local floor failures ahead of the collapse front because they would have blasted in a floor-width manner.


In my opinion those global floor collapse bursts well ahead of the collapse front are evidence that the extreme forces of the top section were uniquely channeled through the unsupported void of the floor sections just like a gun barrel guides the explosive force of a gunshot through the path of least resistance in a gun barrel. What the floor collapses well ahead of the collapse tell you is pneumatic pressure acted in an accelerated manner pushing the floor collapse down the 'barrel' at a speed ahead of the main collapse....

Good thinking there Jetblast. femr2 and/or /Major_Tom have done some work showing the air expulsion paths. It will be on the 911 forum. Bottom line your hypothesis is supported.

... This is a very valid phenomenon evidenced in the collapse that Szamboti simply calls nonsense and surrenders his credibility in the process...

With Tony the reversion to ridicule is much broader than just this issue. It is his standard response when confronted by a superior argument OR a higher level argument which is fatal to his claim. I've triggered him into ridicule or insult on a number of occasions. He likes to keep discussion bogged down in details whether or not they are accurate or relevant.

It is the force that accounts for the destruction of the core and separation of the floor pads...

I doubt that. The strip down - OOS floor and core - had rapidly descending mass and air pressure. The impact overloads of rapidly falling mass was many times what was needed to shear beams or floor joists respectively. The air compression an at least one order of magnitude less. That one easy to reason BTW.

It was the velocity of descent of the building debris which compressed the air. And anything solid is going to impact more than the air it pushes in front of itself. The solid debris was moving as fast as the air.

Szamboti is clueless to the dymanics involved in this that would convert the static resistance of the core into an accelerated downward force in an uneven dynamic caused by the differential between the firm core and unsupported floor pads. If you have a more sophisticated understanding of the complex dynamics involved Szamboti's expected deceleration has been converted into runaway floor collapse by this model. Simply put, the void of the unsupported floor pads absorbed and redistributed Szamboti's deceleration into this particular energy distribution outlet. Szamboti calls this nonsense because he can't answer it.

The core concept you are working on is spot on the basic foundation errors which Tony persists with. I'm not comfortable with some of your details and explanation but let that pass for now,. Your core claim is on target.

...Szamboti calls this nonsense because he can't answer it.

 

[ergo]

Jetblast, your "criticisms" of Tony's arguments are unintelligible. It gives the strong impression that you don't, in fact, understand them. What are you trying to accomplish here?

 

[LSSBB]

Jetblast, your "criticisms" of Tony's arguments are unintelligible. It gives the strong impression that you don't, in fact, understand them. What are you trying to accomplish here?

JetBlast ain't one of you MIHOPians.

 

[DGM]

I'm not sure I'd go that far.

He just believes that the events as seen was what happened. Who made them happen is another story.

 

[LSSBB]

I'm not sure I'd go that far.

He just believes that the events as seen was what happened. Who made them happen is another story.

Valid point.

 

[beachnut]

Jetblast, your "criticisms" of Tony's arguments are unintelligible. It gives the strong impression that you don't, in fact, understand them. What are you trying to accomplish here?

Irony and woo, who knew. Jetblast a 911 truther, you ergo a 911 truther, and Tony (aka the realcdeal), all 911 truthers. You, Jetblast, and Tony can't agree on anything. At least you share one thing in common. Overwhelming evidence, aka zero evidence.

What do you think about Tony's ability to pull the wool over the Journal's eyes by disguising woo as "smoothness", the new "missing jolt"? It take skill to get woo published, and Tony has that skill. 12 years and you, Tony and Jetblast can't figure out 911. The record in minutes. Good luck cutting fellow truthers up with talk.

 

[Jetblast]

Jetblast, your "criticisms" of Tony's arguments are unintelligible. It gives the strong impression that you don't, in fact, understand them. What are you trying to accomplish here?

It's OK to admit you don't get it.


I disagree with ozeco and postulate that the physical form of the forces we are talking about came down to a huge ramming tonnage of debris that lay on top of a clean steel floor pad face for each split second that it impacted each new floor. This intense piston created forces so strong that when its pneumatic blast shot outward towards the inner core it blew it away and broke it apart. You see Szamboti uses a 2 dimensional static model that relies solely on vertical static resistance. However the pneumatic air blasts we are talking about would be focused most intensely on the outer ring of inner core columns in a lateral manner the core columns were not designed for. The core columns were very strong vertically however they were vulnerable horizontally and were not designed to resist intense air blast explosions hitting them from the sides. This would quickly disconnect the trusses from their thin seats and instigate a rapid runaway floor collapse progression as was seen in the videos.

It's not too difficult to understand. It's also backed by the evidence.

 

[Jetblast]

This is how it worked. The core did resist for a split second. However this was defeated by the fact these extreme lateral pneumatic forces happened very quickly and broke the core columns almost immediately with the collapse of the top section.

The split second resistance of the core caused the force to shift to the unsupported floor pads as science requires when force follows the path of least resistance. This was enough force to initiate the violent lateral pneumatic air blasts capable of buckling the core columns.

Each tower had enough mass in each top section to meet the threshold of initiating this process. So, in other words, the 12 storeys of the North Tower's top section was enough mass to cause an air blast capable of breaking the core columns laterally in the first impacted floors.

What demolition advocates fail to grasp is there was just enough heat and impact damage in the drop area to aid this process and reduce resistance. All you needed was for the first impacted floor to produce a lateral pneumatic blast strong enough to break the core columns and the rest was automatic in a runaway floor collapse as each floor followed suit.

This is not at all difficult to understand and happens in a fluid 3 dimensional manner where downward force is converted to lateral force by the collapsing floor pads. These individual "cycles" each break the core columns on that floor which then in turn allows the next cycle to occur on the floor below. If you have a more complex understanding you would realize this happens so fast that it is similar to an explosion. The surface area of the top section mass falling through the narrowed floor void channel would be compensated by an increase in acceleration to accommodate force.

What is happening here is like that game where the balls are all hanging on strings touching each other. When you pull the end ball up and let it go the ball on the other end shoots out. This is a transfer of force through the touching balls. The same thing happens with the air pressure pushing the floor pads downward. When you compress air enough it would 'touch' on a lower order scale and that's why you see the floors drop faster than the main collapse. It is also a force that is strong enough to break the columns when directed laterally and in a manner those core columns were not designed to resist.

 

[jaydeehess]

Engineers may correct me if I am wrong but an air blast that can 'break' a steel column would be akin to the pressure pulse that severs columns by explosive cutter charges. That said then, the air blast that JetBlast speaks of would have to be supersonic in nature, and would cause shattering breakage of at least the bolts and welds if not the columns themselves.

There are no examples of such damage to steel columns that I am aware of.