Hunger in America

[Silly Green Monkey]

It's also perfectly possible to starve to death while obese.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Funny story that: a lot of the quick/cheap food (i.e needing little prep time or tools) is high in fat and salt I've noticed.

 

[Puppycow]

You're right to be skeptical; I was incredulous myself. I think I'm probably a bit of an outlier with respect to attention to my finances. The colloquial term "anal" might be apt. But this includes all expenditures, both from myself and my wife, including dining out, fast food, etc. And I have the receipts for the last 10 months or so.

And speaking of my wife, she is the one who does the double-coupon sale voodoo that gets us, for example, 100 boxes of breakfast cereal for $25. And it is to her credit that we are quite wealthy now. I suppose it's possible that most people don't have that gift. But if I were poor, I think I would work on developing it.

Sounds like you are a lucky man to have such a clever and frugal wife.

But 100 boxes of breakfast cereal? Can you eat all that before it goes bad?
I don't want to eat cereal for lunch and dinner as well as breakfast every day. I have bought bulk food before from Payless (they have one in Japan now) but sometimes I can't use it all before it goes bad and I only have limited space in my house.

 

[The Don]

I think its more a matter of Not everyone WILL do this...

planning in advance, buying bulk, etc... isnt rocket science... I think it would be Much more accurate to say that nearly everyone Can do those things, than can not.

I disagree. Many people do not have the available cash to buy in bulk, the ability to transport bulk purchases or anywhere to safely store their bulk purchases.

Mrs Don and I are members of COSTCO. When we lived in our flat, COSTCO was of limited use to us, we didn't have enough space to store trays of tinned goods or huge packages of dry goods. We didn't have enough fridge or freezer space to make the best out of their excellent prices on frozen and refrigerated food. Now we line in a huge house we have plenty of storage and an extra refrigerator and freezer. We also have a car (four actually ) which means that we can easily swing round and get stuff from COSTCO, I can't imagine doing it on the bus.

If you're on a very tight budget you may simply not have the money to be able to afford to buy in advance in bulk. Even if the unit price is significantly reduced, cashflow may prevent bulk buying.

Plus... why trouble yourself with thinking in advance or cutting coupons if the State is willing to step in and just give you the food ?

Unless provision in the U.S. is much more generous than I understand to be the case this simply does not happen.

 

[Brainster]

Those of you who are doing an excellent job of feeding your family cheaply are demonstrating many of the points I mentioned in my earlier post

• The ability to plan well in advance
• The ability to buy in bulk in advance and store food
• Access to refrigeration and cooking facilities
• Cooking skills

Not everyone can do this.

If you live in the USA you have access to refrigeration and cooking facilities, mmmkay? Any long-term rental provides those. I have a lot of experience in affordable housing (i.e., low-income apartments) and I know what I'm talking about on that issue.

The ability to plan well in advance? I mean, aside from drug addicts and alcoholics (who seem remarkably able to focus on planning their next fix, but not on what to do after that), most of us have figured out that tomorrow is just another 86,400 ticks of the clock away.

Cooking skills? Seriously, when I got out of college the only thing I could cook with any proficiency was spaghetti. But it's not hard to learn, and the good news is that unless you are totally incompetent, you can still eat; it just won't taste as good.

Anyway, I got involved in this thread because there was a claim that nobody could possibly survive on such a low food amount per day. Now that's morphed into "Nobody who's a complete idiot and doesn't know how to shop could survive on twice that a day."

 

[Brainster]

It's also perfectly possible to starve to death while obese.

Michael Moore seems a likely candidate.

 

[Solitaire]

And THAT said, I'm tired of people "maxmizing" the problem ie making it out to be more than it is. The fact that so many of the people who I've seen come in to shelters, churches etc for free meals who are not just slightly but extremely overweight, for example. And I've served many, but have yet to see a single person who appeared anywhere near starvation, who's ribs were showing etc etc.

It's the fact that cheep food is readily available, but it's high in calories and poor in nutrition. Would you call it an American from of Kwashiorkor?

Here's my favorite part of the film, A Place At The Table.

LESLIE NICHOLS: Hunger definitely impacts my classroom. I have had students come to me upset and it’s definitely a huge issue in our small community. […] One student in particular, Rosie, I just really felt she wasn’t really applying herself in the classroom and I couldn’t figure out where that attitude was coming from. […] And what I realized when I brought her in one day was the main issue was that she was hungry.

ROSIE: I struggle a lot and most of the time it’s because my stomach is really hurting. My teacher tells me to get focused and she told me to write focus on my little sticker and every time I look at it and I’m like oh I’m supposed to be focusing. I start yawning and then I zone out and I’m just looking at the teacher and I look at her and all I think about is food. So I have these little visions in my eyes. Sometimes when I look at her I vision her as a banana so she goes like a banana and everybody in the class is like apples or oranges and then I’m like, oh, great.

Nothing beets that.

 

[The Don]

If you live in the USA you have access to refrigeration and cooking facilities, mmmkay? Any long-term rental provides those. I have a lot of experience in affordable housing (i.e., low-income apartments) and I know what I'm talking about on that issue.

I don't know if it's the same in the U.S. but here in the UK there is a sizeable minority of people who are actually or functionally homeless. These are people who cannot afford rental accommodation because they cannot afford the security deposit, cannot afford the rent, are living in B&B accommodation provided by local authorities or are sleeping in their car or on the street.

Then there are people in the UK who live in rented accommodation where the landlord refuses to replace broken appliances or where the renter is responsible for providing the appliances.

T

he ability to plan well in advance? I mean, aside from drug addicts and alcoholics (who seem remarkably able to focus on planning their next fix, but not on what to do after that), most of us have figured out that tomorrow is just another 86,400 ticks of the clock away.

Yes, plan well in advance. I know and have worked with people who simply run out of money every week or who cannot find the time to plan meals and so on. Maybe they're irresponsible and don't deserve support but these are people who do not have food in the house, or cannot keep food in the house because of the people coming through it.

Cooking skills? Seriously, when I got out of college the only thing I could cook with any proficiency was spaghetti. But it's not hard to learn, and the good news is that unless you are totally incompetent, you can still eat; it just won't taste as good.

Reportedly there are lots of people out there with little of no cooking skills and little or no cooking equipment.

Anyway, I got involved in this thread because there was a claim that nobody could possibly survive on such a low food amount per day. Now that's morphed into "Nobody who's a complete idiot and doesn't know how to shop could survive on twice that a day."

I agree with you 100%, it is perfectly possible to eat a healthy and balanced diet for very little money indeed.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

I can't be the only one living in a house with multiple adults, all on their own schedules and eating habits. There isn't any one person who prepares food for everyone, so the freezers and fridge are filled with a hodgepodge of food that isn't all available to whoever's cooking. With so many people cooking for themselves, it's impossible to plan ahead because half your ingredients just got et.

 

[RemieV]

I'm almost afraid to post in this thread.

I have a heart condition. I spend most of my day lying down. I even work lying down. I'm even typing this lying down.

My level of ability to do things is subject to constant change. This means that I eat frozen things, or canned things. My meals are not complex, and require little to no cook time. Sometimes I order in, because I've run out of things to eat and can't get anywhere.

It's kind of an expensive way to do meals, but there is absolutely nothing I can do about it.

As for 'food insecurity', well, I have a lot of doctor's appointments. And, while I have insurance, there is still co-pay. There's still the cost of medications. And I'm talking about several appointments per month.

Now, luckily, I make enough to get by. I'm not rolling in cash or anything, but I have enough that I was able to get Watson a bow-tie collar and a fez for Halloween. I mean, I had to carefully plan it out (even though the grand total was around $30), but I could do it.

I can see someone in my circumstances making just a bit less money and being completely screwed. I mean, when I schedule my doctor's appointments, it isn't when they WANT to see me. It's when I can afford to see them. I think that's what's meant by 'food insecurity'. You get to choose between going to a doctor, and eating decently.

Honestly, I cannot buy the components of a stew because whether or not I'd be able to stand long enough to cook it is a question.

A little poorer, or a little sicker, and this would be pretty much impossible.

 

[Cleon]

Remie, you just need a Cobb salad.

 

[kellyb]

If you live in the USA you have access to refrigeration and cooking facilities, mmmkay? Any long-term rental provides those. I have a lot of experience in affordable housing (i.e., low-income apartments) and I know what I'm talking about on that issue.

In my area, people are often without power. There's usually a neighbor around who will nuke some ramen noodles or popcorn for you, though.

 

[RemieV]

Remie, you just need a Cobb salad.

That's probably what led me here in the first place.

 

[bigred]

Michael Moore seems a likely candidate.

Oh if only.

 

[gumboot]

Living in a quite rural area in the US at this time, I see something of an opposite curve; stores which understand they are often the only reasonably nearby solution for all but the big bi-monthly shopping trips will have higher prices to take advantage.

That's not the opposite; that's exactly what The Don said; local stores have higher prices. Which is kind of obvious, if you think about it, because they have less stock, and their selling point is convenience.

 

[gumboot]

I'm pretty sure most people can technically survive on ~500 calories a day (or less) for a long time. Vegetable oil is cheap and has a lot of calories in it, too. There are a few tricks like that in Where There Is No Doctor:

http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/hesperian-no-doctor.pdf

Surely the idea is not to just "survive". Hunger causes significant problems long before it reaches the starvation stage.

I'm struck with three thoughts about the offered sample menu;

1. It would be significantly more expensive anywhere around here
2. It doesn't provide anywhere near enough calories
3. It's incredibly unhealthy

 

[kellyb]

Surely the idea is not to just "survive".

Well, whose idea?

The OP said:

If I or my children were really in danger of severe malnutrition, I would be right out there on a freeway off-ramp with a sign, if not stealing bread from the store. Where are they?

Won't most people eat an extremely limited/unhealthy diet before they steal or stand by the interstate with a sign?

 

[DragonLady]

Bigred, Pvt Stash: I am very interested in how you plan to live on 350/mnth of food for two. Please show your work. (Note: that figure is higher than my actual food budget.)

I'd have more replies, but the MA forbids it.

I'm interested, too. I think I've been doing pretty well, spending about $6.00 per day on groceries for the two of us. I do buy nutritious foods, I have a small chest freezer so I can buy in bulk, I do shop the sales if whatever is on sale is something I normally use, etc. I buy fresh fruit and veggies weekly from the local farmer's market, and if I go into the city I try to take advantage of lower prices on stuff that can withstand the trip home (car has no air conditioning)

I only go to the grocery store once or twice a month, and if I run out of anything in the interim I'm stuck buying from the local grocery store, and that's outta sight expensive -$4.00 for one loaf of bread; $15.00 for a can of coffee, etc. So I tend to over buy when I do shop, just to avoid running out. Sometimes that's kinda wasteful if something goes bad before we can eat it, so I'm always trying to find the right balance.

I do know people who spend a lot less, but IMO, they don't eat very nutritionally.

 

[RandFan]

Have you priced arugula lately? That stuff is expensive!

Seriously, though, I set myself a goal of spending about $1 per meal years ago and have found it trivially easy. And at least where I live, the benefits were higher than that; a single man of my acquaintance got $200/month or better than $2 per meal.

I'm on disability and that is about what I live on for food. It's tough. I eat a lot of starch, rice, Ramen, pasta, potatoes, hot dogs, bread and veggies. Some chicken and occasionally beef or pork if it is on sale.

I just don't understand why. What is it that people will think will happen to America if we help out the vulnerable a little more? Nations rated higher in Economic Freedom have far more generous social programs. We are a social species. The more people who are not suffering the better we all function. It's a synergistic principle of evolved social species. There is a limit of course. Yes, we need to stress personal responsibility, thrift and savings. But this tendency of Conservatives to see a slippery slope is unfounded. Where are these great Laissez-faire nations? I'll tell you, they don't exist because humans are both individual and social. The extremes of capitalism and communism fail to understand the duality of humans. When our fellow citizens suffer, society suffers. We don't help others simply because we can afford it and we are kind. We are kind and can afford it because we the most successful societies are those who take care of the vulnerable. And there seems to be a strong correlcation between generosity and success. The list below are the nations rated highest in economic freedom.

Hong Kong Singapore Australia New Zealand Switzerland Canada Chile Mauritius Denmark United States

 

[gumboot]

Well, whose idea?

The OP said:

Won't most people eat an extremely limited/unhealthy diet before they steal or stand by the interstate with a sign?

Well that's exactly my point. The OP is moving the goalposts from hunger to severe malnutrition.

The OP is basically arguing that everyone in the US gets adequate food because no one is facing starvation. But there's rather a chasm between "adequate food" and "facing starvation", and there may indeed be many, many people living in that chasm.

I propose that it's not acceptable in a modern, western country (let alone the richest country in the world) for anyone to be living in that chasm.