Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dan O.]

What a long winded bag of hot air. The cottage is close with nothing standing in the way of the apartment. The higher position of the Nara's is important to understand how it all worked You are right though maybe sound also traveled out bedroom door or out the faulty front door swinging open. It may even have traveled out the broken window, no strike that!! So take that trip to Perugia so you too can hear sounds from below the cottage , better than a text book anyday.

So what Nara heard that night was someone screaming from below the cottage which explains why the two families with the broken down car and the tow truck operator wouldn't be able to hear it.

(That night being the night of Nov. 2 because the news of Meredith's murder was in the paper the next morning)

 

[Dan O.]

Actuall I think the other way around: only an idiot would locate "I was there, I can't lie" in her discussion with her family as "at Raffaele's apartment".

And right here you lie by omitting the rest of that statement.

in the apartment of S. q) the environmental content of the interception made within prison November 17, 2007 on the discussions between the K. and parents during which she, inter alia, stated verbatim "ÿ stupid, because I can not say anything else, I was there and I can not lie about this, there is no reason to do so"

Btw think at the statement "I can't lie". It means her parents were asking her to lie. To lie about what? About being at Sollecito's apartment?

"It's ********" comes to mind. Didn't we just cover that? Have you read the transcript?

 

[Dan O.]

Too me it is common sense. Inside a room with the window closed, even with the front door open which is debatable, the sound has to go from her room take a right turn at the hall way, out the front door, up several stories and through double pane widows. If she heard a scream from this room, it would not be the loud scream she described. I don't believe it is possible. If she heard something it would not be the scream she described, it would be barely audible.

It is obvious from the physical evidence that the murderer and Meredith were inside the bedroom alone and the door to the bedroom was closed at the time Meredith was murdered. I already covered this earlier. This also leads to the conclusion that the front door was also closed at the time Meredith was murdered.

 

[Machiavelli]

(...)

Machiavelli, what is your position on this? Do you back Brairs assertion that this tree covered valley will amplify the sound comming from Meredith's window as it reflects it back to Nara's flat?

I didn't follow thoroughly your discussion with Briars. However I do agree that the topography - the cottage and houses - does favour the hearing of sounds. Although, not exactly for the reasons offered by Briars. The background valley won't contribute; but the cottage and its balcony itself would. Well if you are interested, when I have time I write my opinions. Physics of amphiteatres is an interesting topic (and I had to do with it). It doesn't depend on background (actually, only a very small portion of backgound and the stage - cavea - helps the sound).
Sound absorbtion of surfaces (absorbent building material like vulcanic or porous rock, and shape, like stairs) is most important. Actually an amphiteatre works by "absorbing" sound rather than amplificating it: the absorbtion of close-range sounds is what favors most the hearing of sounds from afar. It creates "silence" not noice (loudness - clear hearing of sounds - is in fact a perception dependings on relative volume, even though it is perceived as absolute). The amphiteatre "silences" noises (whatever is below 500 herz) which is voices from the public sitting close to you. Also allows you to catch selective directional soundwave.
There is a part of functioning of an amphiteater acustic which exploites properties of the human ear (humans perceive noises around about 2000 hertz as much "louder" than an equally loud sound at 1000 hertz; at 2500-3000 hertz they are heard as if they were extremely loud in comparison: that's why you may hear children voices speaking in places where you won't hear adults speaking at the same volume).
The houses of Perugia are built in vulcanic rock. There are some famous city squares in central Italy which are fampus for their "amphiteatre effect" (the feeling of silence, and people who can speak to each other fifty meters away). For example the Piazza of Lucca.
Yes I believe Nara's apartment is in a favourable location and the cottage itself with the balcony can work as a good stage.

 

[Bill Williams]

Machiavelli, I am very interested in the comments you have made about the HIV tests that were administered to Amanda in Capanne. I am going to take your word for it that you have information about these, and even may know who administered them.

I would suggest that if Andrea Vogt ever comes to her senses and decides to walk the straight and narrow, she could have the story of her career by doing an investigative piece just on the HIV testing of Amanda, as it represents possibly the most serious violation of Amanda Knox’s human rights as an inmate of a European prison. Maybe you could even share your records with her (wink wink nudge nudge).

<...... sinister deletia .......>

If Andrea doesn’t take the story, maybe someone else will. A lot of media consumers don't know their rights when it comes to health care, but people in the medical profession sure do. This would be of interest to a medical journal, no doubt. Quite a plum for a writer's resume.

Given the other violations of Amanda’s privacy in prison (men accompanying her to every doctor appointment and watching her physical exams), this is a women’s rights issue as well as a public health and prisoner’s rights issue.

Machiavelli seems to be in a position to confirm this. Ms. Vogt is not in this for the money, nor is she in it for a journalistic scoop.

Ms. Vogt seems motivated by being the PR side of the prosecution. Her pieces reflect the prosecution, or it's take on what the courts have decided, which are sometime counter to a plain reading of what the courts wrote.

Ms. Vogt counts this as being honest.

 

[Dan O.]

Nara heard the tow truck ! I doubt she even looked out the window.

Toto probably also heard the tow truck. But since the sound wasn't muffled by walls and windows it would have been easily recognized and since this is a natural sound in the city it would have been invisible.

 

[RandyN]

What's the difference between on the one hand, Vogt's reporting, and on the other hand, Curt and Edda telling a newspaper reporter that Amanda said that she had been hit?

The main difference I see is that Knox tells a consistent story that is believable and supported by additional police suspicious activity ....like for example the missing recording of the interrogation or the missing required lawyer to be present during the interrogation... AND
Vogt is being a shallow coy liar! Sure she can claim this is in some court record, but it is inherently dishonest since she knows damn well that this point was tossed out by a judge after the court record Vogt reports on. Heck whats next for her??? Will she report on the "bloody" bathroom and post the infamous "pink photo"? That's as true as her other nonsense and it is fake, false ...long ago disproved and yet this hack...this lying contemptible hack is still trying to make hay with this type of nonsense...all while shamelessly trying to bolster wiki sites as highly reliable when in fact they are sewer pits of misinformation. Again no facts...just lies. The woman is a hack. She pretends to report from the case file but she hides the facts that disprove her contention for what it is...a falsely and illegally leaked piece of slander designed to prevent the defendants from getting a fair trial.

Stop pussy footing around this tabloid piece of trash whore. Shes a reporter like Mignini is a doctor. Both are imaginary honors they give themselves. The proof is always in the pudding.

 

[Mary_H]

Machiavelli seems to be in a position to confirm this. Ms. Vogt is not in this for the money, nor is she in it for a journalistic scoop.

Ms. Vogt seems motivated by being the PR side of the prosecution. Her pieces reflect the prosecution, or it's take on what the courts have decided, which are sometime counter to a plain reading of what the courts wrote.

Ms. Vogt counts this as being honest.

Bill, this is the beauty of Mach stating that he has knowledge that the doctors and/or health care staff at Capanne who administered the test. Up to now, a big piece of the puzzle was whether the tests were administered by real doctors or by plants.

Even if Andrea is in bed with the prosecutor, now she can criticize "the medical staff of the Umbria Health Care system" without biting the hand that feeds her!

I wonder what a girl reporter would have to do to get those records from Mach.

 

[Dan O.]

Yes I believe Nara's apartment is in a favourable location and the cottage itself with the balcony can work as a good stage.

Only in Italy would they build a house in front of the stage.

The panorama I posted provides a natural visual representation of what is shadowed by the house itself. I believe the doors to the patio were at least thicker glass if not double pane. Only a narrow bit of the door is not in the shadow and that is for a sun that is above the apartments. The entire patio floor is in the shadow zone so cannot contribute to directing sound to Nara's ear.

 

[RandyN]

I think that clarifies the context pretty darn well. Did Vogt deliberately maintain a false impression about its meaning?

Yes she did . In an article she wrote for some Seattle newspaper...I'm sure someone here with search skills can find her original work of fiction.

 

[RandyN]

So you agree that if these claims were not false, then the actions they refer to would be idiotic. Indeed.



I don't call Vogt a liar, I just say that she does not tell the whole truth, which means her reports are unbalanced. In the 2011 piece I linked to yesterday, Vogt says, "Though not raised during her first trial, the "I was there" prison conversation reference is tucked into a long paragraph detailing the evidence pointing to Knox's involvement."

Why does Andrea act like this is new news, when she knows the quote and the reaction to it are from 2007? Why does she not state anywhere in the 2011 article that Knox and her lawyers had long since clarified the meaning of Knox's statement, and that a judge had agreed that it was not evidence pointing to Knox's involvement?

The title of the 2011 article, Italian judges' report: Amanda Knox says she 'was there,'is not only misleading, but I would go so far as to say it is intended to be misleading. Some people might call that a lie.

Yes I am one of those people who call that a bald face lie. An unprofessional deliberate deception by someone selling herself as a professional reporter. I cant believe she can maintain clients with this easily researched "data" she reports on....well one side of it anyway.

 

[RandyN]

1. Bill Williams asked Vogt to "recant" one specific piece of information which he called "false" (saying he is sure of that), on which he claimed the truth was different (meaning that it was proven what the truth was) and said such truth it was "clear".

2. Fron your quote, the title of the quoted article is correct (anyway, the newspaper and not the journalist is the one responsible for the title, you should know that). Moreover, Vogt does not "act like it is new news", she only reports from legal documents (which might be news); she does not report that the defence "clarified" - and, now it is proven, correctly so - maybe because the defence did not clarify; they only claimed an explanation (as they have to do on anything) while such explanation did not "clarify" and did not sound convincing to any judge, neither to the public, nor to Vogt.

3. What I find more astonishing anyway, is this pointing the finger agains Vogt talking about "unbalanced report". And I say this not because of the merit of the judgement itself; anyone can have their opinion on who makes the best balanced report (but you need to know the topic); but here, ths criticism to Vogt about "balanced reporting" comes from people who did not raise an eyebrow when a CNN anchor woman reported that the Perugians were angry "with the police". It seems you were not too outraged that Popham wrote that Mignini talked about a Satanic ritual; that MSNBC had the Koxes as regular guests to comment on the case; that all US media failed to report the existence of tens or hundreds of pieces of evidence and witnesses (who ever reported of Meredith's girlfriends? Luminol footprints? etc.); that Spezi and Preston reported that Mignini was the Prosecutor in the MoF investigation; that the US network did not report about Knox's claim of false memory syndrome, about her statement "I stand by what I said" or about her dec 17th interrogation, nor about Vecchiotti's "everything is possible...", and so on....
You concept of "balanced reporting" is really astonoshing. No outrage against bloggers/journalists who wrote about fake HIV tests, or who falsely wrote that Mignini was guilty of abuses (without even mentioning anything about the true proceedings and their true context, nature and conclusion), or that 100 instances of Guede's DNA were found in the murder room (or that it was found "everywhere"), no outrage for what was falsely claimed about Stefanoni....
So you point instead your finger against Vogt and you ask her - only her - to be "more balanced", to recant something, which btw is true according to all judges.

No...be patient...we will get to the others in time. There are plenty of liars in this case. Not just Vogt. Why are you not addressing Diocletus posts? The missing scientific data? That withholding evidence is a lie? BTW...the HIV test in prison was not faked...only the result of this test was faked.

 

[RandyN]

For the sake of truth, as it was already proven more than once on forums, Italy is not the champion of human right abuse in Western Europe. We know that Italy has a problem with lengh of proceedings. More than other countries in Westarn Europe. But doesn't have more problems with human rights abuse than the average Western European countries at all, by its courts.

Well that is an easily provable lie. The little problem with length of trial goes to the provision of providing a fair trial. Which Italy by far is charged with more violations for ignoring this.

 

[JREF2010]

line in the dirt for the scream

So what Nara heard that night was someone screaming from below the cottage which explains why the two families with the broken down car and the tow truck operator wouldn't be able to hear it.

()

This is always a "line in the dirt" where the guilters disappear without an answer.

The tow-truck event starting with Allessandra Formica, until the Tow Truck leaves removes this whole Nara non-sense of the prosecutions attempt to create a ToD.

Apparently the pro-guilters who believe in Nara, have a difficult time making a decision when they want to attach a time for this scream.

If its after the Tow Truck leaves, they lose the neighbor who said she heard it near 10pm, leaving Nara contradicting her neighbor (who did look at the clock).

If the pro-guilt, believers who have faith in Nara as the ToD, say the scream was 10pm, then they are in contradiction with Migninni and his Gestapo-like following.

But we do know there was no scream heard by Alessandra Formica, nor the people in the tow-truck time.

I think the Nara Religion will flop horribly in court..

 

[RandyN]

What? Vogt was in the courtroom, when Mignini made the argument, in the 2008 preliminary hearing and in the 2011 trial. What has the Telegraph to do with that? She is supposed to report events, what she deems important about events, not to quote the Telegraph.





The discussion with her mother was an argumet from the preliminary hearing, and was used by Mignini to keep Knox under cautionary custody. That was the original purpose of the piece of evidence. It is a pice of evidence with an inherent lower standard. But it is a pice of evidence nonetheless.



That's delusion. Nobody report everything they know. Any journalist or writer would write only a small fraction of what they know. A journalist selects and reports what they deem important. If they report what they honestly believe important, they are honest.

Yes but remember he means "Italian honest" here which is quite different from normal everyday honest.

 

[acbytesla]

Amplified is a better word. Dan doesn't think there are rocks in hills and shares photos of the cottage with a limited view of trees; there are better ones that show hills on all sides, perhaps I can post a better one. Perugia is surrounded by hills make up of calcareous breccias a type of rock.

In fact Amplified is NOT a better word. Sound is not amplified by the valley walls, it is reflected off valley walls In fact when sound bounces off a wall, some of the energy of the sound is absorbed off the surface of the wall. Also this only happens when the sound bounces from the source in the direction of the listener. PERIOD.

Feel free to post all the pictures you like, it still doesn't change the acoustics of the valley.

What also isn't acknowledged is the deadening effect of the cottage walls on a high frequency sound such as scream. Another experiment you can try is to place a tweeter pointing inside a speaker. A flute concerto would end up sounding like tuba concerto playing softly.

 

[RandyN]

Too me it is common sense. Inside a room with the window closed, even with the front door open which is debatable, the sound has to go from her room take a right turn at the hall way, out the front door, up several stories and through double pane widows. If she heard a scream from this room, it would not be the loud scream she described. I don't believe it is possible. If she heard something it would not be the scream she described, it would be barely audible.

The defense should have the right to test this since it is accepted by the court as fact. That should not even be a matter of debate. Unless you already know what the answer would be and you are trying to frame somebody.

Not debatable at all...the front door was certainly locked. Had it been open I think Guede would have simply escaped thru it when he came out of the bathroom.

Guede left the front door open as he was leaving ...likely around 9:50 PM or so. By this time there was no scream. There was no scream because MK has been dead for 40 minutes or so. So there was no scream with the front door open. Guede tells us the scream came at about 9:20. I think he has this correct since it fits every known fact about this area of the case.

 

[RandyN]

Machiavelli seems to be in a position to confirm this. Ms. Vogt is not in this for the money, nor is she in it for a journalistic scoop.

Ms. Vogt seems motivated by being the PR side of the prosecution. Her pieces reflect the prosecution, or it's take on what the courts have decided, which are sometime counter to a plain reading of what the courts wrote.

Ms. Vogt counts this as being honest.

Where did you ever get this crazy idea?

 

[moodstream]

Here is a simple experiment anyone can do at home that will show that a scream would not carry out of the cottage and through the window of Nara's apartment: scream. How far do you envision your own scream will carry? If you live in an apartment, then probably to the apartment next door, or out into the interior hall. If you live at ground level, then probably someone walking on the sidewalk on the near side of the street directly in front of your wind ow. But it's questionable if the sound would even make it across the street.

Now, that's simple common sense and I think everyone knows this.

 

[anglolawyer]

snip
Judges and magistrated do leave out pieces of evidence from their arguments and motivation reports. That's not a proof that they don't exist.

No they don't and yes it is. What you are suggesting might have been the practise of the Star Chamber but it only takes a second to see that if justice must be done and seen to be done there cannot be a bunch of secret reasons for a conviction.

I had this argument with a PGP before, concerning the lamp, as to which there are also no findings in Massei. You claim all the judges bar Hellman understood her to be admitting her presence at the scene. If that were true this would be a devastating admission, every bit as powerful as the written confessions which were held unusable. But, so far as I understand, Micheli ruled it otherwise (source: WTBH) and all subsequent judges fell into line (I am still waiting for a page reference in Cassazione to 'I was there').

Vogt did not make theories or arguments. She just reported, brought pieces of information. Those pieces of informations are true (also according to the Cassazione).

As requested, please quote the passage you think Vogt is relying on here.