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skyrider44 said:
How can you say that he didn't make a decision? That is what he did, whether in a single day or over weeks. What is "confrontational and polemic" about that?

To experience a "realization," he had to realize something. What he realized was that he had opted to become an atheist.
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When did you realize that the book of Abraham was a fraud?
 
Shalamar said:
Why does the 'translation' of the Egyptian Papyrus m\by Joseph Smith differ so much from Egyptologists?
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I think it pointless to ask this question.

Janadele cannot answer. She is not allowed to question the teachings of her church. I do not know if this is a general LDS dictum or a self-imposed prohibition, but it is nevertheless strictly forbidden for her to even ponder the question.

The mere fact we have asked her the question means we must be a force of evil because we are trying to tempt her into the sin of intelligent thought with respect to her religion. We are the minions of Satan.

Skyrider44, on the other hand, won't answer. He has some doubts. He has tried to prove his faith here in this thread, and he has failed. He has doubts, and he is conflicted. The evasions of direct questions and mindless attacks on atheism are a manifestation of his conflict.

Am I wrong?
 
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Skyrider44, I find it rather curious that you would accuse me of being unable to "stand the heat" regarding the discussion of atheism (especially considering that in the split thread I demonstrated that you posted links to citations that you hadn't bothered to read that actually contradicted your arguments), while obviously avoiding the subject of the fraudulent nature of the Book Of Abraham.
 
From the New Era:
"Joseph Smith had in his possession three or four long scrolls, plus a hypocephalus (Facsimile 2). Of these original materials, only a handful of fragments were recovered at the Metropolitan Museum. The majority of the papyri remains lost, and has likely been destroyed. Critics who claim that we have all, or a majority, of the papyri possessed by Joseph Smith are simply mistaken. The Egyptian characters on the recovered documents are a portion of the "Book of Breathings," an Egyptian religious text buried with mummies that instructed the dead on how to successfully reach the afterlife. This particular Book of Breathings was written for a deceased man named Hor, so it it usually called the Hor Book of Breathings. Other than the vignette represented in Facsimile 1, the material on the papyri received by the Church, at least from a standard Egyptological point of view, does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham."
New Era, January 1968.
 
Janadele said:
From the New Era:
"Joseph Smith had in his possession three or four long scrolls, plus a hypocephalus (Facsimile 2). Of these original materials, only a handful of fragments were recovered at the Metropolitan Museum. The majority of the papyri remains lost, and has likely been destroyed. Critics who claim that we have all, or a majority, of the papyri possessed by Joseph Smith are simply mistaken. The Egyptian characters on the recovered documents are a portion of the "Book of Breathings," an Egyptian religious text buried with mummies that instructed the dead on how to successfully reach the afterlife. This particular Book of Breathings was written for a deceased man named Hor, so it it usually called the Hor Book of Breathings. Other than the vignette represented in Facsimile 1, the material on the papyri received by the Church, at least from a standard Egyptological point of view, does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham."
New Era, January 1968.
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Of course it does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham. This point apparently is not in dispute.

In addition, the translation guide Joseph Smith generated for interpreting hieroglyphics does not include the actual translation of any hieroglyphics.

Why is that?
 
skyrider44 said:
Wrong. In fact, I believe that many atheists may be more moral that some theists. Why? Because atheists believe that they must work for justice here and now, whereas some theists believe God will make things right.

I have nothing against atheists. My sole concern is the insistence by some on this forum that atheists are not responsible for becoming atheists. I don't believe that, nor do many atheists themselves.

It's a matter of taking personal responsibility for the choices one makes, regardlesss of what one happens to believe or not believe. Is that asking too much?

SV devoted a plump paragraph devoted to suggesting that I have attributed a lengthy list of evils to him and to other atheists. Others have chimed in. Not a word of that is true; it's a falsehood.

My attitude toward atheists has been misconstrued, which is probably my own fault. I apologize.

Now, having hopefully cleared the air, ask me about the Book of Abraham.
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You "clear the air" with more false accusations? Right.

The BoA is a callous, conscious fraud. Smith's "translation" and "interpretation" of the text and diagram do not even rise to twaddle. Pretending there is a "sacred" Abrahamic autograph (with distinctly anti-Egyptian message) included in a standard Egyptian funerary text is delusional, dishonest, or both.

What question is left to ask?
 
Janadele said:
From the New Era:
"Joseph Smith had in his possession three or four long scrolls, plus a hypocephalus (Facsimile 2). Of these original materials, only a handful of fragments were recovered at the Metropolitan Museum. The majority of the papyri remains lost, and has likely been destroyed. Critics who claim that we have all, or a majority, of the papyri possessed by Joseph Smith are simply mistaken. The Egyptian characters on the recovered documents are a portion of the "Book of Breathings," an Egyptian religious text buried with mummies that instructed the dead on how to successfully reach the afterlife. This particular Book of Breathings was written for a deceased man named Hor, so it it usually called the Hor Book of Breathings. Other than the vignette represented in Facsimile 1, the material on the papyri received by the Church, at least from a standard Egyptological point of view, does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham."
New Era, January 1968.
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Are you saying, then, that it is only the surviving piece of the hydrocephalus wherein JS committed intentional, knowing fraud?

You can look at the surviving piece and see what a poor job he did. His "translation" has never been used to decipher a single hieroglyph; his "interpretation" of the illustration he amateurishly "completed" has been repudiated by every Egyptologist of which I have ever read, who has studied it...
 
jsfisher said:
I think it pointless to ask this question.

Janadele cannot answer. She is not allowed to question the teachings of her church. I do not know if this is a general LDS dictum or a self-imposed prohibition, but it is nevertheless strictly forbidden for her to even ponder the question.

The mere fact we have asked her the question means we must be a force of evil because we are trying to tempt her into the sin of intelligent thought with respect to her religion. We are the minions of Satan.

Skyrider44, on the other hand, won't answer. He has some doubts. He has tried to prove his faith here in this thread, and he has failed. He has doubts, and he is conflicted. The evasions of direct questions and mindless attacks on atheism are a manifestation of his conflict.

Am I wrong?
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Probably not. Skyrider44 is.. a little more open than Janadele, trhough he has some animosity towards Atheists.

Janadele believes everything in the LDS to be true.. because she believes it to be true. From all appearances she also seems to consider herself better and greater than most of the posters here.

That said, I will continue to ask the questions until she gives a true answer that is not preaching.
 
What is it that I am trying to say......

I watch this thread each day and a few things have become necessary for me to express.

We go around and around with each other every day. This isn't a fight for who is right and who is wrong. This isn't a race to the finish. Except the one we keep maing up and defending.

When a great fighter is in the ring, he is not mad, or upset. When a great surgeon is operating, he does not allow his feelings to intrude. They do their job. I must do mine.

At some point we have to look out for each other. I am that compassion. I am that tolerance. I am able.

This world has seen enough bloodshed and sadness.

I look at people like RandFan and see his eloquence and passion, and I appriciate it.

I see people like Janadele, with her child-like faith in a God I no longer believe in, yet I can appreciate her hopes and values. Even if I don't believe the same.

I have learned to agree to disagree, yet still care, still allow for others to believe in things I never believe in will again.

I don't believe in God, because the evidence and the stories and the divisiveness just doesn't add up for me.

It doesn't mean I have no place in this universe. I am connected to it all from start to finish. From Big Bang to Fading Red Giant. I am a part. My children are a part. I teach them so.

If human beings are to survive as a species, then we better get smart. We better start caring about each other.

It starts with me. I am that.

Not believing in religion and God has cured my blindness. I used to see boogie men in the people who didn't think like me. No more.

I see human beings, in all their wonderful, scary, beautiful, imperfect, perfection.

I still have wonder in my life. Wonder that there is life, and that I am a part of it.

No more worry, no more shame, no more fear of my humaness.

I am the generator of love and compassion and tolerance. I am the creating Heaven here and now. I generate true honesty that allows me to be wrong.

In fact, one of the best tools I have is the sentence: I don't know. I am allowed not to know things.

But, I am responsible for my own ignorance as well as my own intelligence. I am responsible.

I enjoy the humility of being from a small planet, in a little corner of a universe. The preceiousness, and precariousness of life, and how short it is. I am willing to pass it on after my turn. My one turn (universe). I'll live on in my children. And my children's children.

There is no reward, no prize for this life other than the life, well lived. I need no more.

No borders, no boogie men, no magic words.

I am the magic. I am the life.

I stand on two feet, not requesting the universe to be anything, other than what it is. I appreciate it and I am grateful.

I reverence for the here and now.

Wholeness. Unity. Kindness, Tolerance, Peace, Patience. I am these things. I generate them.

I am.
 
deaman said:
I watch this thread each day and a few things have become necessary for me to express.

We go around and around with each other every day. This isn't a fight for who is right and who is wrong. This isn't a race to the finish. Except the one we keep maing up and defending.

When a great fighter is in the ring, he is not mad, or upset. When a great surgeon is operating, he does not allow his feelings to intrude. They do their job. I must do mine.

At some point we have to look out for each other. I am that compassion. I am that tolerance. I am able.

This world has seen enough bloodshed and sadness.

I look at people like RandFan and see his eloquence and passion, and I appriciate it.

I see people like Janadele, with her child-like faith in a God I no longer believe in, yet I can appreciate her hopes and values. Even if I don't believe the same.

I have learned to agree to disagree, yet still care, still allow for others to believe in things I never believe in will again.

I don't believe in God, because the evidence and the stories and the divisiveness just doesn't add up for me.

It doesn't mean I have no place in this universe. I am connected to it all from start to finish. From Big Bang to Fading Red Giant. I am a part. My children are a part. I teach them so.

If human beings are to survive as a species, then we better get smart. We better start caring about each other.

It starts with me. I am that.

Not believing in religion and God has cured my blindness. I used to see boogie men in the people who didn't think like me. No more.

I see human beings, in all their wonderful, scary, beautiful, imperfect, perfection.

I still have wonder in my life. Wonder that there is life, and that I am a part of it.

No more worry, no more shame, no more fear of my humaness.

I am the generator of love and compassion and tolerance. I am the creating Heaven here and now. I generate true honesty that allows me to be wrong.

In fact, one of the best tools I have is the sentence: I don't know. I am allowed not to know things.

But, I am responsible for my own ignorance as well as my own intelligence. I am responsible.

I enjoy the humility of being from a small planet, in a little corner of a universe. The preceiousness, and precariousness of life, and how short it is. I am willing to pass it on after my turn. My one turn (universe). I'll live on in my children. And my children's children.

There is no reward, no prize for this life other than the life, well lived. I need no more.

No borders, no boogie men, no magic words.

I am the magic. I am the life.

I stand on two feet, not requesting the universe to be anything, other than what it is. I appreciate it and I am grateful.

I reverence for the here and now.

Wholeness. Unity. Kindness, Tolerance, Peace, Patience. I am these things. I generate them.

I am.
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Great post!
 
Lovely post, deaman.

Personally I think the journey from theist to atheist requires both realisations and a decision. For me it started with the realisation that things I had been taught as fact were nothing of the sort and ended with the realisation that there was no good reason to believe in any god, but in between there was definitely a decision: I had to decide whether I was going to think about the things I had been told to accept as fact and look to see if there was any evidence for them, or simply accept them as instructed.

I think there may be theists who never have that first realisation, and theists who do but then decide not to question what they've been taught anyway. For anyone who chooses to look behind the curtain, however, atheism (or at least agnosticism) is likely to be the end result.
 
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jsfisher said:
Of course it does not include the actual text of the Book of Abraham. This point apparently is not in dispute.

In addition, the translation guide Joseph Smith generated for interpreting hieroglyphics does not include the actual translation of any hieroglyphics.

Why is that?
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As indicated previously, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints retains the privilege of discretion in whether or not and to whom Sacred matters are revealed. This is particularly applicable to Temple Ordinances and to the Book of Abraham.
 
Janadele said:
As indicated previously, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints retains the privilege of discretion in whether or not and to whom Sacred matters are revealed. This is particularly applicable to Temple Ordinances and to the Book of Abraham.
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How convenient.
 
Janadele said:
As indicated previously, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints retains the privilege of discretion in whether or not and to whom Sacred matters are revealed. This is particularly applicable to Temple Ordinances and to the Book of Abraham.
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"We do have answers but we're not going to tell you what they are"? Seriously? That's the best you can do? And you wonder why your church is regarded with amusement rather than respect?
 
Janadele said:
As indicated previously, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints retains the privilege of discretion in whether or not and to whom Sacred matters are revealed. This is particularly applicable to Temple Ordinances and to the Book of Abraham.
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The Mormon Church does not believe in the right of informed consent. Obfuscation and lack of transparency are the very hallmarks of conmen.
 
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