Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[Christian Klippel]

You miss the point.

These technologies are bought by Big Whatever and suppressed until such time as Big Whatever's product/resource runs out and then they market the new technology.

Yes, this is one variant of that argument, i know. It is, however, still as stupid. In fact, it is even more stupid. After all, they already have that technology but still dig up other resources to produce energy, spending loads of money on that in the process, thus minimizing their profits....

In the end it always comes down to companies spending lots of money to drill for oil, dig up coal, etc., while (according to the crackpots) all that is not needed since such stuff like the e-cat exist.

It simply is not believable that for-profit companies would be that stupid.

Greetings,

Chris

 

[Craig B]

You miss the point.

These technologies are bought by Big Whatever and suppressed until such time as Big Whatever's product/resource runs out and then they market the new technology.

That's often argued, but it is very strange! Did lighting enterprises wait until gas had run out before marketing electric lamps? Did steam railways wait for hay to run out?

 

[tsig]

Congrats on the 2000!

If you look at http://shutdownrossi.com/ you will see a mugshot of a mysterious person who is supposed to be the representative for a buyer of one of Rossi's MW devices. Neither he nor the buyer has ever been named, and no report on the operation of the machine since its (alleged) delivery has ever been made. Surprising for a device that overturns the most fundamental known laws of nature, and promises to solve humanity's most pressing and intractable problems at a single stroke.

Interesting link, I see they're down on Rossi because he's bringing disrepute on the cold fusion field.

You don't see this often on science sites:

DON QUIXOTE
It is the mission of each true knight…
His duty… nay, his privilege!
To dream the impossible dream,
To fight the unbeatable foe,
To bear with unbearable sorrow
To run where the brave dare not go;
To right the unrightable wrong.


I can but wish them luck and warn them about the windmills.

 

[EHocking]

Yes, this is one variant of that argument, i know. It is, however, still as stupid. In fact, it is even more stupid. After all, they already have that technology but still dig up other resources to produce energy, spending loads of money on that in the process, thus minimizing their profits....

In the end it always comes down to companies spending lots of money to drill for oil, dig up coal, etc., while (according to the crackpots) all that is not needed since such stuff like the e-cat exist.

It simply is not believable that for-profit companies would be that stupid.

Greetings,

Chris

This is exactly my argument to counter claims that dowsing works.

The oil industry would not spend billions annually on geologists and seismologists if they could hire Jeb for a quart of Jack Daniels and a stick of chewing tobacco...

 

[EHocking]

That's often argued, but it is very strange! Did lighting enterprises wait until gas had run out before marketing electric lamps? Did steam railways wait for hay to run out?

No, they just bought them out and put them out of business in preference to the more profitable technology. [/CT]

 

[Horatius]

I can but wish them luck and warn them about the windmills.

Oh man, if Big Windmill has Rossi in its sites, he's really screwed!

 

[Craig B]

Oh man, if Big Windmill has Rossi in its sites, he's really screwed!

Unless Don Quixote and Sancho Panza get to Big Windmill in time!

 

[Cuddles]

If such a thing like the e-cat would work, they would be all over it, would have bought the patents, technology and inventors.

Or in Rossi's case, would simply have copied it and sold it themselves, since he doesn't seem to want to get a valid patent. Hell, even if he did everything properly, what chance would he possibly have? Two of the top four, and four of the top ten, largest companies in the world are energy companies (three of them oil and gas, while General Electric is rather more diverse). Consider the shenanigans we know such companies get up to all the time. If this thing worked, is there really any chance whatsoever that someone wouldn't have simply stolen it, then set a small army of lawyers on Rossi to make sure he never sees a penny from it? Do his believers really think that these companies constantly join each other in shadowy conspiracies to screw over the entire world, but are above a bit of simple industrial espionage and legal games?

This is exactly my argument to counter claims that dowsing works.

The oil industry would not spend billions annually on geologists and seismologists if they could hire Jeb for a quart of Jack Daniels and a stick of chewing tobacco...

As always, xkcd has it covered:

 

[acementhead]

Hey Pteridine are you interested in making some money from the ecat? Would you like to try to put together a bet? I'd still be willing to bet against despite the successful Defaklon(?) test.

 

[trebor]

Hey Pteridine are you interested in making some money from the ecat? Would you like to try to put together a bet? I'd still be willing to bet against despite the successful Defaklon(?) test.

By 'test' do you mean an actual proper test; or just another demonstration?

 

[Craig B]

Hey Pteridine are you interested in making some money from the ecat? Would you like to try to put together a bet? I'd still be willing to bet against despite the successful Defaklon(?) test.

I'd be willing to bet against as well. Defkalion is seeking listing on the Toronto stock exchange. http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/08/defkalion-ceo-entering-the-toronto-stock-exchange-this-year/ We wanted a magic energy machine. What do we get?

When asked what the next step was, the CEO stated that scientifically it would be “optimization of the model”. In business terms it would be entry onto the Toronto Stock Exchange which they think they can join after October 15th. This will be followed by a ‘roadshow’ to promote the stock.

That "test" may be part of the roadshow background material intended to impress would-be investors. No machines yet, then; a roadshow to promote stock instead. Wow! That’ll revolutionise the world, green the deserts, carry humanity to the furthest planets–and make a few scammers rich. My guess is that the few scammers will get rich, but none of the other things will happen.

One possible reason for Defkalion’s interest in Canada has now been explained in a post in "e-cat world".

JerryVic on August 8, 2013. Vancouver Stock Exchange – Major Fraud there, Hopes are Defkalion have not fallen into the hands of a bunch of Stock Pumpers. Canada produces more stock market fraud, at least per capita, than do other countries. And there may be good reasons for concern. Unlike other major industrial nations, Canada has no national regulatory agency for securities but leaves the task to the provinces, which pursue oversight with varying degrees of enthusiasm. And efforts at reform have been incomplete.

Jerry, no way has Defkalion fallen into any swindlers’ hands. I’m sure its directors are perfectly capable of pumping their own stock. I hope they don't then dump it when "investors" come on board. That would be very naughty.

So a revolutionary magic machine energy company spends its time marketing its own stock, before it gets round to releasing machines. And it has roadshows for the purpose. And where does it list its stock? Where regulation is weakest.

Further to the above: this is from the wiki entry on Canadian stock market regulation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_securities_regulation

Unlike any other major federation, Canada does not have a securities regulatory authority at the federal government level. Provincial governments began to establish regulatory agencies in 1912 (in Manitoba), and the Privy Council decided in Lymburn and Mayland, [1932] A.C. 318 that such legislation is authorized under the provincial property and civil rights power.
Notwithstanding the lack of a federal regulator, the majority of provincial security commissions operate under a passport system, so that the approval of one commission essentially allows for registration in another province. However, concerns with the system remain. For example, Ontario, Canada’s largest capital market, does not participate in the Passport regime.

And Toronto is in Ontario. But no doubt all those attending the roadshows will be reassured by the results of the "test" enough to open their wallets.

 

[pteridine]

Hey Pteridine are you interested in making some money from the ecat? Would you like to try to put together a bet? I'd still be willing to bet against despite the successful Defaklon(?) test.

Sure. Rather than cash, a contrite admission of error would suffice. I don't really need your money but humility would do you good.
All who wish to bet for or against Rossi and the ECat should so state, so we can have lists of participants on either side. I have included the egomaniacs Nathan Lewis and Richard Garwin on the 'against' list but those guys are chameleons so I expect that they will somehow weasel out of public confession of error.

 

[phunk]

Sure. Rather than cash, a contrite admission of error would suffice. I don't really need your money but humility would do you good.
All who wish to bet for or against Rossi and the ECat should so state, so we can have lists of participants on either side. I have included the egomaniacs Nathan Lewis and Richard Garwin on the 'against' list but those guys are chameleons so I expect that they will somehow weasel out of public confession of error.

100% against Rossi here.

"I don't really need your money" means "I don't really think I can win this bet", doesn't it?

 

[trebor]

I'll put £1000 GBP against, to a charity of your choice as you don't need it.
How about a deadline of the end of the year? After all Rossi was supposedly ready to mass produce them years ago.

Another question: Did you invest your own money in Rossi?

 

[bruto]

I'll put my two cents in and vote against Rossi. However, I think Pteridine's bet is a sham, as such bets usually are. If Rossi and his folks turn out to be right in a provable, repeatable way, of course the rest of us will receive our heaping plates of crow immediately, and chow down happily. In the face of a wondrous new development, an admission of error is easy and welcome.

But if Rossi and his minions are wrong, all they must do to satisfy the Pteridines of this world is promise results next year, and then the next, and then the next. Like theists and bigfooters, Pteridine has an automatic exemption. Failed deadlines, dubious tests, missing evidence, even previous frauds and errors, none can disprove a promise, and none can disqualify a promise dearly enough hoped for.

 

[ben m]

I'll propose more specific bets:

a) There will not be an E-cat for sale to the public by 1/1/2014.
b) There will not be an E-cat for sale to the public by 1/1/2015.
c) There will not be an E-cat for sale to the public by 1/1/2016.

Or, for any date you care to name:
d) Rossi will not publicly demonstrate a "closed cycle" machine (without external heater power)
e) Rossi will not publicly demonstrate machine without his own secret "power conditioner" box (i.e., presenting an E-cat with two electrical terminals and a gas inlet, which the tester connects to their own equipment); if such a test is allowed, it will fail, with Rossi blaming the user for supplying the "wrong waveform".
f) Rossi will not remove the shielding from his standard reactor to allow a tester to measure x-rays or gamma rays.
g) Rossi will not allow a tester to collect nickel samples before and after a continuously-observed run, i.e. to demonstrate chemical or isotopic changes. (At least, not without trickery like in the HotCat report, where the reactor is "taken away" and "brought back")

 

[Reality Check]

I have included the egomaniacs Nathan Lewis and Richard Garwin on the 'against' list but those guys are chameleons so I expect that they will somehow weasel out of public confession of error.

You forgot that ultimate egomaniac, pteridine: Rossi !

You also forgot to back up your insult about Nathan Lewis and Richard Garwin with actual evidence or even citations to their "error". Are you just insulting random people in the world, pteridine? Can we expect you to label Winnie the Pooh an egomaniac next ?

 

[Horatius]

Sure. Rather than cash, a contrite admission of error would suffice. I don't really need your money but humility would do you good.

Nice. You bump the thread not to provide the evidence of a working ECat that we've been waiting for for almost three years now (evidence that was promised to us multiple times over that period), but instead to subtly insult us by implying WE are the people who would have difficulty admitting we were wrong.

Nice.

 

[Craig B]

According to the website New Energy and Fuel, which enthuses over Cold Fusion from time to time, there is commercial interest in one other project in addition to Rossi's e-cat: Brillouin Energy's Controlled Electron Capture Reaction (CECR). It's yet another nickel thing, like the Rossi contraption. It allegedly works like this:

A proprietary electronic pulse generator ... creates stress points in [a piece of nickel] where the applied energy is focused into very small spaces. This concentrated energy allows some of the protons in the hydrogen to capture an electron, and thus become a neutron. This step converts a small amount of energy into mass in the neutron. More pulses both create more neutrons and allow neutrons to combine with some of the hydrogen to form deuterium (a form of hydrogen with both a proton and a neutron in the nucleus). This ‘combination’ step releases energy. The process continues, again, with some neutrons combining with deuterium to form tritium (hydrogen with one proton and two neutrons). This step releases still more energy. The process continues with some neutrons combining with the tritium to form quadrium (hydrogen with one proton and three neutrons). Since quadrium is not stable, it quickly turns into helium in a process that releases more energy than it took to create all the preceding steps.

Would anyone like to comment on the plausibility of such a reaction as a source of energy? "Big money is standing by", seemingly. http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/n...fusion-goes-commercial-big-money-standing-by/

 

[tsig]

According to the website New Energy and Fuel, which enthuses over Cold Fusion from time to time, there is commercial interest in one other project in addition to Rossi's e-cat: Brillouin Energy's Controlled Electron Capture Reaction (CECR). It's yet another nickel thing, like the Rossi contraption. It allegedly works like this: Would anyone like to comment on the plausibility of such a reaction as a source of energy? "Big money is standing by", seemingly. http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/n...fusion-goes-commercial-big-money-standing-by/

Brillouin’s power equation is 2.4 units of energy going in and 24 units coming out.

The amount of hydrogen in a 8-oz (237 ml) glass of water holds the energy equivalent of the gasoline needed to fill up 7903 Ford Explorers or to power 3279 average homes for a month. The nickel or other metal element acts only as a host and catalyst, and is not consumed.
- See more at: http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/n...l-big-money-standing-by/#sthash.a5nVsoVr.dpuf

I must say that "gallons of gas per Ford Explorer" is an unorthodox unit of measurement. If he could somehow relate it to football fields he'd have a better chance with American investors.