JFK's assassination: your thoughts

[BStrong]

Sure that's the way they do it in jetblast's world.....lol

If someone can believe that LHO was "cunningly sharp," I doubt there's much they wouldn't believe - at least if it props up the Hollywood World of CIA/Government Deception fantasy.

 

[JayUtah]

Still no smoking gun for LHO CIA involvement.

Correct. The conspiracy-world connection comes from characterizing Albert Schweitzer college as a front for the CIA, not a real school. That, they say, is the only reason Oswald could have known of the school's existence; it was allegedly too obscure for him to have found it on his own.

 

[BStrong]

Correct. The conspiracy-world connection comes from characterizing Albert Schweitzer college as a front for the CIA, not a real school. That, they say, is the only reason Oswald could have known of the school's existence; it was allegedly too obscure for him to have found it on his own.

The lengths some CT Hawkers go to indict individuals through CIA ties is almost to the point that it's got more in common with Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Degrees_of_Kevin_Bacon

Than competent investigation.

I stand by my earlier observation - LHO saw the name ASC somewhere, recognized the name Albert Schweitzer and used the name of the institution in standard LHO self aggrandizement.

 

[Jetblast]

Here's a reasonable explanation, one that doesn't have any hint of skullduggery.

LHO saw something in print mentioning Albert Schwietzer College, recognized the name, told Marine buddy's he had a scholarship to attend classes there (classic self-aggrandizement of the LHO kind) and adopted a fiction. There is -0- evidence that he knew any actual facts about what or wasn't being conducted there, never went there even for a visit, and afaik never even applied there.

If you follow a more educated line of logic the Warren Report made efforts to trace and explain much of Oswald's influences. For instance they went into infinite detail on the magazines that advertized the Carcano rifle. Even with their extensive analysis CTer's managed to show there were serious flaws in their rifle evidence. They never did this with Albert Schweitzer College because they knew it was incriminating. There were no advertizements available to Oswald at Atsugi Airbase for that obscure college. No, he applied there all right. You're just ignorant of the facts. In fact it took the Swiss police two months to find it. Maybe they stalled deliberately so CIA could cover themselves and make sure there were no exposing problems with Schweitzer College in order to get their story straight. Main CIA player Percival Brundage was on Schweitzer College's board of directors.

The reason Oswald applied there is because, if necessary, CIA could assign him academic credentials in order to get him into Moscow's Patrice Lumumba Institute. Russia's main school for teaching communist proliferation internationally. The reason CIA was sending false defectors like Oswald and Webster into Russia is because there was a deficit of information on the Soviet Union.

Not sexy, but it's more reasonable than LHO as 007 - come to think of it, LHO as 007 & is no more fictional than 'ol 007 himself.

Yeah, imagine the nutty CTer notion of a marine, who openly admits the intention of committing treason by giving radar secrets to the Soviets, waltzing in and out of Russia and back to America without any charges, being an intel asset. Imagine that!

BTW? fluent Russian? even after returning from the Soviet he didn't speak fluent Russian.

You're way behind on this and need to catch-up. Marina said when she first met Oswald his Russian was so good that she thought Oswald was a Russian. CIA handler George Demohrenschildt said Oswald spoke nearly flawless Russian. Demohrenschildt was a White Russian. Why did he befriend an open Marxist and Castro supporter? Why did an intellectual like Demohrenschildt befriend your incorrigible loser Oswald?

And if you want to assert that LHO was such a skilled operator that he blows cover giving a speech, you're sort of trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Oswald was seen with known CIA operators like Banister, Ferrie, and Shaw. He asked for a specific FBI agent when arrested in New Orleans. He called known intel asset John Hurt from the Dallas Police Station. It wasn't possible for Oswald to blow his cover. He was being handled at the deepest level. These people could literally change the face of the Earth to conceal Oswald and his CIA status.

LHO was a little man who wanted to be big - he didn't have the underlying practical ambition or intellect to make that happen in the world, so after not being a top Marine, he went to the Soviet's and they didn't make him anything other than a factory worker, that didn't work for him and he returned to CONUS, and they didn't make him a top spy, so he went back to a ****** little life - taking a potshot at Walker didn't get him where he wanted to be, so the next time he hunted big game.

Pure classic CIA character defamation propaganda nonsense in denial of the facts you are making excuses to get around above. By the way, how did Oswald know that Helsinki was the way to get in to Russia quickly?

ETA: BTW Jet, what exactly was that "CIA only" plastic explosive used in the radio station bomb?

You're playing word games against the obvious. Page 130: 'JFK And The Unspeakable' - The medical examiner of the bombing of the Buddhists in Hue said there was no metal shrapnel in the bodies of the victims and that the hideous injuries were similar to those of plastic explosives. Similar damage was seen in previous bombings in Saigon that were blamed on the Viet Minh, however the warlord General The admitted CIA had supplied him plastic explosives for those bombings. (More US false flags). The commies only had bombs with metal shrapnel. The medical examiner was persecuted because he refused to say the communists did it.

 

[Robrob]

He had studied the Russian language enough by February 25, 1959, to request that he be given a foreign language qualification test; his rating was "poor" in all parts of the test"

So much for the claim LHO was "fluent" in Russian.

 

[Robrob]

You're way behind on this and need to catch-up. Marina said when she first met Oswald his Russian was so good that she thought Oswald was a Russian.

Lie.

CIA handler George Demohrenschildt said Oswald spoke nearly flawless Russian.

After having lived in Russia for nearly three years, this surprises you?

The medical examiner of the bombing of the Buddhists in Hue said there was no metal shrapnel in the bodies of the victims and that the hideous injuries were similar to those of plastic explosives. Similar damage was seen in previous bombings in Saigon that were blamed on the Viet Minh, however the warlord General The admitted CIA had supplied him plastic explosives for those bombings. (More US false flags). The commies only had bombs with metal shrapnel. The medical examiner was persecuted because he refused to say the communists did it.

Lie.

 

[EventHorizon]

Demohrenschildt was a White Russian.

The Dude abides.

 

[Hans]

The commies only had bombs with metal shrapnel. The medical examiner was persecuted because he refused to say the communists did it.

JB once upon a time I was the commandant of a mine warfare school.....so I can say this with professional authority

Not only are you an inept troll you aren't particularly bright

What is a betal mine?

What is a TMB-2 AT mine made of?

Here are some easier ones for you

<SNIP>

Edited by Locknar: 

SNIPed, breach of rule 0, rule 12.

 

[BStrong]

If you follow a more educated line of logic the Warren Report made efforts to trace and explain much of Oswald's influences. For instance they went into infinite detail on the magazines that advertized the Carcano rifle. Even with their extensive analysis CTer's managed to show there were serious flaws in their rifle evidence. They never did this with Albert Schweitzer College because they knew it was incriminating. There were no advertizements available to Oswald at Atsugi Airbase for that obscure college. No, he applied there all right. You're just ignorant of the facts. In fact it took the Swiss police two months to find it. Maybe they stalled deliberately so CIA could cover themselves and make sure there were no exposing problems with Schweitzer College in order to get their story straight. Main CIA player Percival Brundage was on Schweitzer College's board of directors.

Here is my response to another CT hawker that wanted to cite CT evidence wrt the rifle/number of shots evidence:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9487770&postcount=103

But because you wish to get into it, here's a couple more things to consider:

Serious flaws in the rifle evidence exists only in the mind of individuals that A) don't know anything about marksmanship and ballisitics and B) people who have issues with reality.

In the example of ASC I've already provided a reasonable explanation for LHO's use of the name. Why you insist that LHO needed to see an "advertizements" to have knowledge of the institution isn't reasonable.

The assertion that there needed to be an investigation of who/what/where of ASC in relation to the events in Dallas is specious - as no evidence exists that LHO ever set foot there, the assertion carries no weight.

The reason Oswald applied there is because, if necessary, CIA could assign him academic credentials in order to get him into Moscow's Patrice Lumumba Institute. Russia's main school for teaching communist proliferation internationally. The reason CIA was sending false defectors like Oswald and Webster into Russia is because there was a deficit of information on the Soviet Union.

Bare assertion, facts not in evidence, and as LHO made no representation to the Sovs (that is known) that he wanted to attend PLI (he did evidently want to attend Moscow University) and the Sovs accepted him as a defector in any case w/o educational credentials being an issue.

Yeah, imagine the nutty CTer notion of a marine, who openly admits the intention of committing treason by giving radar secrets to the Soviets, waltzing in and out of Russia and back to America without any charges, being an intel asset. Imagine that!

Radar secrets? I'm not going to apply for the MDC here at the JREF behind this, but I can tell from that comment that you've never been in the military - half-assed article 15 prone PFC's aren't privy to "secrets" anymore than Senate Pages are privy to Presidential deliberations.

With all the "investigators" from Mark Lane forward trying to establish LHO as sort of intell mine for the Sovs, the best anyone can determine is that he had a "secret" clearance, which isn't much of anything. The assertion that he had some special knowledge of the U2 is specious also. and as far as radar technology, LHO was a scope reader, not a system tech.

Both the Sovs and the Chinese already had a pretty clear idea of U2 flight capabilities because they had tracked the aircraft themselves, and LHO for sure wasn't in the photo interpretation end of things and would know no more about that U2 capability than any other PFC.

As far as his "ease" of defecting, the Corps was probably happy to be rid of him, and contrary to Hollywood fiction, even back then with certain sorts seeing "commies" under the bed, a loser like LHO wasn't restricted from leaving the US, and if he wanted to go red, wgas?

You're way behind on this and need to catch-up. Marina said when she first met Oswald his Russian was so good that she thought Oswald was a Russian. CIA handler George Demohrenschildt said Oswald spoke nearly flawless Russian. Demohrenschildt was a White Russian. Why did he befriend an open Marxist and Castro supporter? Why did an intellectual like Demohrenschildt befriend your incorrigible loser Oswald?[/

Which version of Marina's and others' statements do you wish to believe? LHO scored "poor" on his Russian language aptitude test while he was still in the Corps, and She also has stated that she didn't think LHO was Russian, she said that she thought he was from one of the Sov republics because he spoke Russian with an accent.

LHO was earlier welcomed into the Dallas WR community because as he had just returned from Russia he was thought to have news of current conditions - when they learned through exposure to him that he wasn't exactly the socially communicative sort, and several of those individuals especially disliked LHO for his treatment of Marina and his apparent inability to act as a provider for his family, they dropped him as a member of that circle.

George De Mohrenschildt indeed befriended LHO, but in reading between the lines of the information available I believe he was more interested in getting in Marina's pants than being LHO's bestust buddy.

See, assertion is easy...

Oswald was seen with known CIA operators like Banister, Ferrie, and Shaw. He asked for a specific FBI agent when arrested in New Orleans. He called known intel asset John Hurt from the Dallas Police Station. It wasn't possible for Oswald to blow his cover. He was being handled at the deepest level. These people could literally change the face of the Earth to conceal Oswald and his CIA status.

LHO has been connected to the trio you specify above, mainly by our old friend Jim Garrison, who was a laughingstock of a NOLA DA long before he decided to solve the crime of the century. Anybody that believes that Carlos Marcello was a tomato salesman and stated such on the record absolutely can not be considered a reliable source of truth. The John Hurt call is indeed interesting, until you realize that the assertion that LHO was calling a handler is pretty thin (there was a Hurt contacted at one of the numbers involved that said he was an Army intelligence officer during WWII, but that doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot in 1963.)

This phone call also became an issue that surfaced with one of the better known JFK/covert action ******** artists - Tosh Plumlee, who's story on the events at Dallas is that he was part of a CIA op to stop the assassination.

You do have one thing right above, but for the wrong reason - LHO couldn't "blow his cover" because he didn't have a cover to blow.

Pure classic CIA character defamation propaganda nonsense in denial of the facts you are making excuses to get around above. By the way, how did Oswald know that Helsinki was the way to get in to Russia quickly?

I call 'em like I see 'em, and I'm not the first observer to note LHO's behavior and accomplishments up to the point where he started shooting people (Walker, JFK, Tippet) and come to the conclusion he was an inadequate personality.

LHO, like anyone interested in the subject at the time. knew that Finland, as a non-aligned nation had direct transportation into the Soviet. No secret handshake required.

You're playing word games against the obvious. Page 130: 'JFK And The Unspeakable' - The medical examiner of the bombing of the Buddhists in Hue said there was no metal shrapnel in the bodies of the victims and that the hideous injuries were similar to those of plastic explosives. Similar damage was seen in previous bombings in Saigon that were blamed on the Viet Minh, however the warlord General The admitted CIA had supplied him plastic explosives for those bombings. (More US false flags). The commies only had bombs with metal shrapnel. The medical examiner was persecuted because he refused to say the communists did it.

This paragraph is where you really fall flat on your ass factually and scientifically.

When an individual is killed by blast overpressure, the actual cause of death is fairly easy to establish (explosions in the real world don't go unnoticed) but there is no way, repeat no way for the ME or investigator to determine high explosive type by overpressure injuries alone.

There is no explosive chemical composition that is unique to only one type of explosive - all common high explosive materials are comprised of binders and oxidizers and stabilizers, and since the 1990's here in the US, detection and identification taggants.

Show me some forensic evidence from the Saigon bombing and I'll go farther, but I think readers will get the gist.

What "the commies" had was all types of explosives and explosive devices, some factory made, many more in the south were IED's, and let me break this to you the nicest way I know.

What the Viet Minh/Viet Cong had the most of was US manufactured explosives recovered from dud aerial/artillery/mortar rounds as well as material stolen or diverted from SVN military sources.

Here's a pic from an AF EOD page:

From captured VC photos. A primary source of high explosives for VC clandestine munitions was retrieved 100, 500, and 750 pound US bombs that failed to detonate when dropped. In the foreground, two VC are sawing open a 750 pound bomb to gain access to the explosive. 7th AF EOD personnel would try to deny this source by detonating the explosives from shot down or crashed aircraft.

Again, "The commies" you reference had access to all types of exord and exord devices, and used them as they saw fit. The "facts" you assert above have no meaning w/o context, and if your ME tried to assert lack of sharp injuries as evidence of non-VM/VC involvement, he doesn't sound competent or someone that should be treated as a reliable sorce.

 

[Jetblast]

Lie.


After having lived in Russia for nearly three years, this surprises you?


Lie.

Oswald had been at Minsk 1 1/2 years where his co-workers helped him with his Russian before he met Marina.


However: Page 410 - 'Unspeakable' - Footnote 122 -


"...the Warren Commission's general counsel J Lee Rankin told the commission members at a closed-door meeting that 'we are trying...to find out what [Oswald] studied at the Monterey School of the Army in the way of languages,' suggesting Oswald received the type of expert assistance in Russian given to the U.S. military's counterintelligence agents.

Weisberg: Neither the Warren Report or Oswald's service records refer to this language schooling.


The Viet Cong did not have access to plastique at the time.

 

[JayUtah]

However: Page 410 - 'Unspeakable' - Footnote 122 -

So basically you have one source for all your Kennedy claims?

 

[Robrob]

Oswald had been at Minsk 1 1/2 years where his co-workers helped him with his Russian before he met Marina.

Correct. LHO traveled to Russia in October 1959. In March 1961 he met Marina. As stated above, even after a year and a half of total immersion training - she didn't think LHO was Russian. She thought he was from one of the other republics because he spoke Russian with an accent. Remember, this was 1961. She had never met an American and most likely had no idea what an American accent sounded like. LHO spoke accented Russian which in her experience meant he was a non-native speaker from Latvia, Lithuania, etc....

This helps your "super-spy" theory, how?

Weisberg: Neither the Warren Report or Oswald's service records refer to this language schooling.

Because he never attended DLI nor any other military language school.

The Viet Cong did not have access to plastique at the time.

1) You can't tell what kind of explosive was used, post facto.

2) As described above, the VC did in fact have access to every type of munition we made.

 

[BStrong]

So basically you have one source for all your Kennedy claims?

And not even a good source:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9493214&postcount=104

JB would have us believe that statements made by RFK directly after the assassination about Presedential intentions wrt the VN war are not reliable, but statements made by individuals away from the decision making circle as quoted in Unspeakable are definitive.

And RobRoy - isn't it suspicious that a murder investigation focused on the murder weapon rather than an application made to a place that the suspect never set foot in? (Cue Reeling in The Years)

 

[JayUtah]

And not even a good source...

Nope. Part of Jetblast's claim here is not too far off from the now-departed Robert Prey's. It's the standard JFK conspiracy rhetoric: all the conspiracists are so much better informed than their sheepish critics who have, at best, only skimmed parts of the Warren Commission findings. Every single JFK conspiracy theorist seems to argue from the premise that he's the smartest guy in the room. It's endemic, I guess.

In Jetblast's case, it seems to be, "I read a sensationalist book on JFK once."

 

[Jetblast]

In the example of ASC I've already provided a reasonable explanation for LHO's use of the name. Why you insist that LHO needed to see an "advertizements" to have knowledge of the institution isn't reasonable.

The assertion that there needed to be an investigation of who/what/where of ASC in relation to the events in Dallas is specious - as no evidence exists that LHO ever set foot there, the assertion carries no weight.

You haven't provided anything of the sort. You're dodging. The record holds true at 100%. Deniers can't answer how Oswald know of the obscure Swiss CIA-connected Albert Schweitzer College. The Commission did exhaustive study of the Carcano advertizements and that still didn't work. Yet they did nothing at all on where Oswald learned about Albert Schweitzer College and after posting an irrelevant diversion on the Carcano advertizements, you haven't either.

Your contempt for the meaning of ASC is plain. Since it was obviously part of a very learned strategy of gaining academic bona fides that bespeaks a method and practice beyond the maladjusted loser your side is painting Oswald as being. This is a highly functioning, highly intelligent operator we're seeing here who then requires further investigation.

What's very obvious here is that you can't answer how Oswald knew about Schweitzer College. And since the Commission couldn't find any advertizement to explain it away we can assume ASC didn't advertize. The college was highly CIA networked since it had a big time CIA player, Brundage, on its board. I think we all know how Oswald knew about it.

Bare assertion, facts not in evidence, and as LHO made no representation to the Sovs (that is known) that he wanted to attend PLI (he did evidently want to attend Moscow University) and the Sovs accepted him as a defector in any case w/o educational credentials being an issue.

It's possible Oswald was sent with corrupted intel as part of Angleton's attempt to flush out a mole. It would explain why he tried to commie himself up but never went through with the actual practice.

Radar secrets? I'm not going to apply for the MDC here at the JREF behind this, but I can tell from that comment that you've never been in the military - half-assed article 15 prone PFC's aren't privy to "secrets" anymore than Senate Pages are privy to Presidential deliberations.

With all the "investigators" from Mark Lane forward trying to establish LHO as sort of intell mine for the Sovs, the best anyone can determine is that he had a "secret" clearance, which isn't much of anything. The assertion that he had some special knowledge of the U2 is specious also. and as far as radar technology, LHO was a scope reader, not a system tech.

Both the Sovs and the Chinese already had a pretty clear idea of U2 flight capabilities because they had tracked the aircraft themselves, and LHO for sure wasn't in the photo interpretation end of things and would know no more about that U2 capability than any other PFC.

Oswald's marine buddies said he frequented the expensive spy bar in Atsugi where other marines were recruited into undercover CIA work. A fellow marine said Oswald was the only one who was allowed into a certain district where KGB was using prostitutes to extract information from soldiers. Those were high-priced prostitutes Oswald couldn't afford on his marine pay.

Oswald had knowledge enough of U-2 flights and codes etc to be a problem. At the time the US had just developed a high altitude radar by which to track the U-2 that would be of interest to the Soviets who had no such technology. My theory is Angleton worked out spy status for Oswald that KGB took seriously because of Angleton's access to KGB double agents. Oswald could very easily have carried a microfilm with what looked like highly sensitive secrets but was just expendable bait. That would perfectly explain Oswald's KGB wife and easy access to both sides. US was willing to sacrifice U-2 secrets 1) Because CIA was trying to scuttle Eisenhower's attempts at detente 2) The Blackbird & Satellite technology were about to make the U-2 obsolete.

But all and all even if Oswald was a screen jockey the US usually isn't that forgiving to soldiers who boast of intending to share secrets with the enemy. US lied too when they said Oswald wasn't debriefed by CIA upon his return. Researchers found he was met by a CIA agent travel agent when he got to New York.

Which version of Marina's and others' statements do you wish to believe? LHO scored "poor" on his Russian language aptitude test while he was still in the Corps, and She also has stated that she didn't think LHO was Russian, she said that she thought he was from one of the Sov republics because he spoke Russian with an accent.

See Robrob post.

LHO was earlier welcomed into the Dallas WR community because as he had just returned from Russia he was thought to have news of current conditions - when they learned through exposure to him that he wasn't exactly the socially communicative sort, and several of those individuals especially disliked LHO for his treatment of Marina and his apparent inability to act as a provider for his family, they dropped him as a member of that circle.

George De Mohrenschildt indeed befriended LHO, but in reading between the lines of the information available I believe he was more interested in getting in Marina's pants than being LHO's bestust buddy.

See, assertion is easy...

Demohrenschildt was assigned to Oswald by Dallas CIA domestic contacts J Walton Moore. DeMohrenschildt then passed the Oswalds over to CIA agents the Paines. The rest is just the spin put on classic covert operator behavior.

I agree. Assertion is very easy. Like the assertion that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone nut defector.

LHO has been connected to the trio you specify above, mainly by our old friend Jim Garrison, who was a laughingstock of a NOLA DA long before he decided to solve the crime of the century.

A laughingstock who CIA had to do operations against to keep the truth from coming out. Even after all that CIA defamation laughingstock Garrison managed to get re-elected.

Anybody that believes that Carlos Marcello was a tomato salesman and stated such on the record absolutely can not be considered a reliable source of truth.

Good, so you say Hoover's saying there was no US mafia destroys his credibility? Hoover called the shots on FBI's investigation of Kennedy's assassination.

The John Hurt call is indeed interesting, until you realize that the assertion that LHO was calling a handler is pretty thin (there was a Hurt contacted at one of the numbers involved that said he was an Army intelligence officer during WWII, but that doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot in 1963.)

This phone call also became an issue that surfaced with one of the better known JFK/covert action ******** artists - Tosh Plumlee, who's story on the events at Dallas is that he was part of a CIA op to stop the assassination.

Thanks for the patronizing non-answer. What makes it even more incriminating is the fact Hurt made up a bs story about it being him who called Oswald while drunk and angry that a marine would have done such a thing. However tracing of the story from the telephone operator witnesses showed that Oswald tried to call Hurt and FBI stopped it. Again, this is a highly functional operator for someone who deniers try to paint as a low intellect.

You do have one thing right above, but for the wrong reason - LHO couldn't "blow his cover" because he didn't have a cover to blow.

No, no evidence of huge actions to avoid exposing his true status here. Like murder of witnesses for instance. Efforts to conceal Oswald's spy status were proven by John Newman who is an expert at file code analysis. It's in his book 'Oswald And The CIA'.

LHO, like anyone interested in the subject at the time. knew that Finland, as a non-aligned nation had direct transportation into the Soviet. No secret handshake required.

And anyone would know about an obscure Swiss CIA-connected college that didn't advertize that took the Swiss police 2 months to find.

This paragraph is where you really fall flat on your ass factually and scientifically.



Show me some forensic evidence from the Saigon bombing and I'll go farther, but I think readers will get the gist.

What "the commies" had was all types of explosives and explosive devices, some factory made, many more in the south were IED's, and let me break this to you the nicest way I know.

What the Viet Minh/Viet Cong had the most of was US manufactured explosives recovered from dud aerial/artillery/mortar rounds as well as material stolen or diverted from SVN military sources.

Here's a pic from an AF EOD page:

Yeah right. Nice try.

1) You didn't answer the fact that the Viet Cong insurgents in Hue at that time did not have access to plastique. There was intimidation of the medical examiner to say it was the communists.

2) Warlord General The said CIA gave him plastique to stage false flags in Saigon with and did.

3) You foolishly fail to detect that those pictures of recovered unexploded bombs are from later in the war. The time we are talking about is Kennedy's day when the methods and available materials were limited. Though I do give you credit for creative excuse-making.

Page 148: 'Unspeakable'


"It was only the CIA that had such an explosive, as admitted later by Captain Scott, the US military advisor responsible for the bombing."

 

[Jetblast]

Correct. LHO traveled to Russia in October 1959. In March 1961 he met Marina. As stated above, even after a year and a half of total immersion training - she didn't think LHO was Russian. She thought he was from one of the other republics because he spoke Russian with an accent. Remember, this was 1961. She had never met an American and most likely had no idea what an American accent sounded like. LHO spoke accented Russian which in her experience meant he was a non-native speaker from Latvia, Lithuania, etc....

This helps your "super-spy" theory, how?

Nice try at twisting the context. That context was that Marina commented Oswald was so fluent at Russian that she thought he was a Russian from one of the other republics. I know, I know. Oswald was an idiot savant whose strange talent was languages and lone gunnery.

Because he never attended DLI nor any other military language school.

Well except for the Monterey School of the Army that Warren Commission counsel J Lee Rankin found evidence of and tried to follow through on. Lack of mention of this in his official marines record isn't even more incriminating of Oswald's undercover spy work - no.

1) You can't tell what kind of explosive was used, post facto.

2) As described above, the VC did in fact have access to every type of munition we made.

Very weak. The forensic evidence showed a blast only plastique was capable of. Captain Scott, the US military advisor responsible for the bombing later admitted CIA was the only group that possessed such an explosive at the time. See page 148 of Douglass' 'JFK And The Unspeakable'.

 

[BStrong]

You haven't provided anything of the sort. You're dodging. The record holds true at 100%. Deniers can't answer how Oswald know of the obscure Swiss CIA-connected Albert Schweitzer College. The Commission did exhaustive study of the Carcano advertizements and that still didn't work. Yet they did nothing at all on where Oswald learned about Albert Schweitzer College and after posting an irrelevant diversion on the Carcano advertizements, you haven't either.

JB, I can't remember the last time I had this much fun with a CT hawker.

No matter how many times you make the assertion that LHO could have only known about ASC through CIA connections, you can not make your square CT peg fit in the round hole of reality.

No evidence exists that LHO was induced or encouraged by anyone to make an application to or attend ASC. My explanation based on LHO's established pattern of grandiose statements doesn't have evidence either, but a reasonable explanation taking into account normal human behavior has a better chance of being correct than "he could have only known..." and off to the CIA Hollywood fantasy land races because of the simple reason that if the CIA or any other director of LHO's action wanted him to go, and had a reason to have him there, he would have been there.

Not to mention that directing him to a CIA institution (which your base assertion doesn't establish) is piss-poor tradecraft.

The CIA actually has a long (going back to the OSS, or what some folks called back in the day Oh So Social) time affiliation with the Ivy League universities and academia in general, although I am certain nobody would mistake LHO for a Yalie, it's reasonable (again that word that scares CT hawkers so deeply) to believe that the agency had assets that could dummy up a educational legend for LHO if he was an asset and needed such, and it's also worth noting that at the time it would probably be easier for the sovs to get info from ASC as opposed to some community college in Resume Speed Iowa, from proximity if nothing else.

Your last assertion above I've noted in another post, but if you believe that the investigation of murder involving a firearm wouldn't spend a significant amount of investigative effort in establishing that the firearm in question was the murder weapon and attempting to determine how the weapon came to be in the suspect's possession, there is a comprehension problem at work on your part that may be too serious to overcome - the reason ASC wasn't investigated to your satisfaction is that in the scope of the investigation, finding out how LHO knew the name of a place he never set foot in wasn't an investigative priority compared to the who, what, when, where that the WC was dealing with.

As I've written about in both of these active JFK threads, the "questions" of the CT hawkers wrt the rifle and the ballistics is pure ******** thought up by individuals that barely know which end of the piece the projectiles exit - if you post specifics, I'll address them.

Your contempt for the meaning of ASC is plain. Since it was obviously part of a very learned strategy of gaining academic bona fides that bespeaks a method and practice beyond the maladjusted loser your side is painting Oswald as being. This is a highly functioning, highly intelligent operator we're seeing here who then requires further investigation.

Answered above, and LHO was what he was, as you noted, a maladjusted loser.

What's very obvious here is that you can't answer how Oswald knew about Schweitzer College. And since the Commission couldn't find any advertizement to explain it away we can assume ASC didn't advertize. The college was highly CIA networked since it had a big time CIA player, Brundage, on its board. I think we all know how Oswald knew about it.

Is English your first language? See above. The fact that you assert ASC was a CIA front etc. isn't proof, and if every past director of Intelligence sat on the board of ASC it still would prove LHO had anything to do with the CIA, and since LHO (again) never set foot in the joint the ASC stuff has no bearing on the JFK assassination.

It's possible Oswald was sent with corrupted intel as part of Angleton's attempt to flush out a mole. It would explain why he tried to commie himself up but never went through with the actual practice.

Before you get into more of a tizzy about LHO and the theory that Angleton had anything to do with him, better to read up on a fella by the name of Clare Petty and his CIA career. And LHO had socialist/communist beliefs since he was a kid, and unless you want to assert the LHO was part of some secret CIA "I was a teenage commie" op, the assertion that LHO was run as some sort of double agent is more Hollywood fantasy.

Oswald's marine buddies said he frequented the expensive spy bar in Atsugi where other marines were recruited into undercover CIA work. A fellow marine said Oswald was the only one who was allowed into a certain district where KGB was using prostitutes to extract information from soldiers. Those were high-priced prostitutes Oswald couldn't afford on his marine pay.

"Expensive spy bar?" is that where all the drinks are shaken, not stirred?

Point of fact. When the CIA recruits US military personnel, they don't do it at the bar or the whorehouse, they do it in an office on base, and aptitude tests are given and contracts are signed, and the service member either is sent out TDY (Temporary Duty, bet you haven't heard of that one) to work for the agency, or they finish their enlistments and go to work.

I imagine if the CIA knew of some super-whiz bang scientist working for the military they'd attempt to get the guy working for them (head-hunting)but such things are not in general popular w/ superior officers.

Oswald had knowledge enough of U-2 flights and codes etc to be a problem. At the time the US had just developed a high altitude radar by which to track the U-2 that would be of interest to the Soviets who had no such technology. My theory is Angleton worked out spy status for Oswald that KGB took seriously because of Angleton's access to KGB double agents. Oswald could very easily have carried a microfilm with what looked like highly sensitive secrets but was just expendable bait. That would perfectly explain Oswald's KGB wife and easy access to both sides. US was willing to sacrifice U-2 secrets 1) Because CIA was trying to scuttle Eisenhower's attempts at detente 2) The Blackbird & Satellite technology were about to make the U-2 obsolete.

CT hawkers fantasy ^^^^ LHO knew dick about U2's other than they had wings, flew and they took photos in flight. Like I said earlier, half-assed Article 15 prone PFC's don't know much about anything other than standing watch and policing the area.

But all and all even if Oswald was a screen jockey the US usually isn't that forgiving to soldiers who boast of intending to share secrets with the enemy. US lied too when they said Oswald wasn't debriefed by CIA upon his return. Researchers found he was met by a CIA agent travel agent when he got to New York.

Assuming he knew "secrets" and what he knew had any worth.

LHO did not disclose any information useful to the sovs other than the fact that they learned the Marine Corps had their own version of Ivan Ivanovich, soviet sad sack.

And the CIA "travel agent" "debriefed" LHO how exactly?

Demohrenschildt was assigned to Oswald by Dallas CIA domestic contacts J Walton Moore. DeMohrenschildt then passed the Oswalds over to CIA agents the Paines. The rest is just the spin put on classic covert operator behavior.

Since you have yet to prove that LHO was an asset for the agency, the words above have no bearing on reality.

The CIA/FBI knew who LHO was, and that's pretty much the extent of their involvement with him pre-Dallas.

I agree. Assertion is very easy. Like the assertion that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone nut defector.

LHO was a lone loser, but he wasn't the only defector, lone nut or otherwise.

A laughingstock who CIA had to do operations against to keep the truth from coming out. Even after all that CIA defamation laughingstock Garrison managed to get re-elected.

The only people that seem to believe Garrison was anything other than a local joke in NOLA are the after-the-fact JFK CT hawkers and that well known intellectual, Oliver Stone, who managed to make a successful movie out of Garrison's fantasy.

Good, so you say Hoover's saying there was no US mafia destroys his credibility? Hoover called the shots on FBI's investigation of Kennedy's assassination.

Garrison did not interfere with local Mafia operations during his tenure as DA, and the source of the "Tomato salesman" line was an FBI agent in NOLA, but when Garrison was interviewed by the House Select Committee in '78, this is what he said:

"When asked if he believed Marcello was a man capable of
having President Kennedy murdered, Garrison did not
directly answer the question. Garrison stated that he
has "certainly heard" that Marcello may have once been
involved in some kind of criminal activity years ago. He
stated that he has some reason to believe that some of
Marcello's money was obtained through criminal acts many
years ago. Garrison further stated that he has heard of
allegations linking Marcello to organized crime and the
Mafia, but does not know if they are true. He stated
that he has heard over the years that Marcello may be a
man of significant wealth, and may in fact be one of
Louisiana's wealthier citizens. He stated that Marcello
is not active in real estate and is a businessman.

When asked again if he believes that Marcello had the
motive and means to assassinate President Kennedy,
Garrison again did not respond to the question, and began
talking about another subject at length."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jim-hsca.htm

Thanks for the patronizing non-answer. What makes it even more incriminating is the fact Hurt made up a bs story about it being him who called Oswald while drunk and angry that a marine would have done such a thing. However tracing of the story from the telephone operator witnesses showed that Oswald tried to call Hurt and FBI stopped it. Again, this is a highly functional operator for someone who deniers try to paint as a low intellect.

Any proof that Hurt lied? any proof that Hurt was CIA (Hint: he wasn't)
Any provable (not assertion as evidence) evidence that Oswald actually made the call? I know all about the crumpled up note pulled from the wastebasket, but again, assertion does not equal evidence.

No, no evidence of huge actions to avoid exposing his true status here. Like murder of witnesses for instance. Efforts to conceal Oswald's spy status were proven by John Newman who is an expert at file code analysis. It's in his book 'Oswald And The CIA'.

Newman writes like a man with a paper *******. As a historian he may have expertise, as an intelligence office wonk, he knows the file system. His opinion as expressed in his book is best described as a classic example of conclusion jumping.

And anyone would know about an obscure Swiss CIA-connected college that didn't advertize that took the Swiss police 2 months to find.

Back to ASC again? JB, I get it, you have an "advertise" fetish, but for you to prevail on this point you'd need to prove that the name "ASC" did not appear in print in any other context than an "advertizment."

Yeah right. Nice try.

1) You didn't answer the fact that the Viet Cong insurgents in Hue at that time did not have access to plastique. There was intimidation of the medical examiner to say it was the communists.

2) Warlord General The said CIA gave him plastique to stage false flags in Saigon with and did.

3) You foolishly fail to detect that those pictures of recovered unexploded bombs are from later in the war. The time we are talking about is Kennedy's day when the methods and available materials were limited. Though I do give you credit for creative excuse-making. ['QUOTE]

Do you know that the French dropped aerial bombs on the VM the whole time they were in Indochina prior to losing their lease in '54, and some of those aerial bombs were duds...and the VM did then exactly what the VC did later, sweat out the E with hot water (when available) and by hand if not, and as I stated before, the E or anyone else can not determine HE type by injuries alone, and the VC absolutely had plastic type explosives going back to before '54.

Page 148: 'Unspeakable'

"It was only the CIA that had such an explosive, as admitted later by Captain Scott, the US military advisor responsible for the bombing."

Again, you're wrong.

The VC had everything that the SVN had through diversion or theft, and bulk explosives of several types from material scavenged from dud ordnance.

Links might be useful for discussion if you wish to provide them

 

[Robrob]

Deniers can't answer how Oswald know of the obscure Swiss CIA-connected Albert Schweitzer College.

Since he never did anything beyond fill out an application, your point?

The Commission did exhaustive study of the Carcano advertizements and that still didn't work. Yet they did nothing at all on where Oswald learned about Albert Schweitzer College and after posting an irrelevant diversion on the Carcano advertizements, you haven't either.

Speaking of irrelevant, what does an incomplete application to a school he never attended mean?

Your contempt for the meaning of ASC is plain. Since it was obviously part of a very learned strategy of gaining academic bona fides that bespeaks a method and practice beyond the maladjusted loser your side is painting Oswald as being. This is a highly functioning, highly intelligent operator we're seeing here who then requires further investigation.

You have spun quite a complex theory over something which you admit never happened.

What's very obvious here is that you can't answer how Oswald knew about Schweitzer College. And since the Commission couldn't find any advertizement to explain it away we can assume ASC didn't advertize.

So?

The college was highly CIA networked since it had a big time CIA player, Brundage, on its board. I think we all know how Oswald knew about it.

Well debunked fantasy.

Oswald's marine buddies said he frequented the expensive spy bar in Atsugi where other marines were recruited into undercover CIA work. A fellow marine said Oswald was the only one who was allowed into a certain district where KGB was using prostitutes to extract information from soldiers. Those were high-priced prostitutes Oswald couldn't afford on his marine pay.

Horse poop.

Oswald had knowledge enough of U-2 flights and codes etc to be a problem.

Fantasy. LHO had no such "knowledge."

See Robrob post.

My post where I point out you were wrong when you claimed LHO spoke fluent Russian before he lived in Russia for three years?

Demohrenschildt was assigned to Oswald by Dallas CIA domestic contacts J Walton Moore. DeMohrenschildt then passed the Oswalds over to CIA agents the Paines. The rest is just the spin put on classic covert operator behavior.

Fantasy.

I agree. Assertion is very easy. Like the assertion that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone nut defector.

Evidence to the contrary?

Hoover called the shots on FBI's investigation of Kennedy's assassination.

Evidence?

No, no evidence of huge actions to avoid exposing his true status here. Like murder of witnesses for instance.

Fantasy.

And anyone would know about an obscure Swiss CIA-connected college that didn't advertize that took the Swiss police 2 months to find.

You keep making that claim, have any evidence to support it?

1) You didn't answer the fact that the Viet Cong insurgents in Hue at that time did not have access to plastique. There was intimidation of the medical examiner to say it was the communists.

There was no way to tell if it was plastique by looking at the injuries. Not to mention (as you've already been shown) plastique was readily available to the VC via captured munitions.

3) You foolishly fail to detect that those pictures of recovered unexploded bombs are from later in the war. The time we are talking about is Kennedy's day when the methods and available materials were limited. Though I do give you credit for creative excuse-making.

So earlier in the war, the VC didn't recover or steal unexploded US munitions?

"It was only the CIA that had such an explosive, as admitted later by Captain Scott, the US military advisor responsible for the bombing."

Horse poop.

Nice try at twisting the context. That context was that Marina commented Oswald was so fluent at Russian that she thought he was a Russian from one of the other republics.

Outright lie.

Well except for the Monterey School of the Army that Warren Commission counsel J Lee Rankin found evidence of and tried to follow through on. Lack of mention of this in his official marines record isn't even more incriminating of Oswald's undercover spy work - no.

I'm sure you could provide an example of the claimed "evidence?"

Very weak. The forensic evidence showed a blast only plastique was capable of.

Horse poop.

Captain Scott, the US military advisor responsible for the bombing later admitted CIA was the only group that possessed such an explosive at the time. See page 148 of Douglass' 'JFK And The Unspeakable'.

More horse poop.

I notice you pretty much exclusively cite a single book.

 

[Border Reiver]

There would have been lots of explosives in Vietnam when that bomb went off- from WWII French and Japanese leftovers, and the munitions left by the French during their little colonial war. Extracting the explosive from an artillery shell is not that difficult, especially once you have the fuze off.

Additionally, explosives kill through 2 means:

A. Over pressure - meaning the pressure exerted on the victim solely by the shockwave of the explosion;
B. Fragmentation - meaning the little (or not so little) pieces of metal, plastic, wood or whatever material is used in the casing that fly at you at high speeds to cut you up.

Plastic explosives are explosives that can be shaped by the user to a desired shape prior to use.

 

[ladmo]

Well debunked fantasy.

Nothing debunked, this is one person's opinion. No facts just conjectures...