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Why do you tell us to expand our horizons, yet thump only this source?
You were asked to provide evidence for this claim. Why have you not?
That hasn't stopped you from assuming they describe some sort of deep connection between Oswald and the CIA, or some such theory. It is even more egregious for you then to admit you have no idea what these documents contain and therefore no reason to judge that they are relevant to your claim or anyone else's.
Begging the question. "Strange and counterproductive" are your interpretations based on your unsupported expectation.
Subversion of support. You have provided no evidence or discussion for the existence, number, and character of "all these" documents.
I have never said there is some sort of deep connection between Oswald and the CIA. Go ahead and apply one of your famous fallacies to yourself. You just applied a false assumption but I guess that is perfectly fine. Because I have no idea what the documents contain does not disqualify them from being possibly relevant. Your research skills are suspect if you actually believe your statement of "It is even more egregious for you then to admit you have no idea what these documents contain and therefore no reason to judge that they are relevant to your claim or anyone else's."
In research, everything is relevant until found out not to be... It is easy to Fact Check but it takes skill to Fact Find. You are a Fact Checker.
I have never said there is some sort of deep connection between Oswald and the CIA. Go ahead and apply one of your famous fallacies to yourself. You just applied a false assumption but I guess that is perfectly fine. Because I have no idea what the documents contain does not disqualify them from being possibly relevant. Your research skills are suspect if you actually believe your statement of "It is even more egregious for you then to admit you have no idea what these documents contain and therefore no reason to judge that they are relevant to your claim or anyone else's."
In research, everything is relevant until found out not to be... It is easy to Fact Check but it takes skill to Fact Find. You are a Fact Checker.
Since Ladmo evidently can't find the open general JFK thread -
In the other thread
Ladmo:
To say it was only LHO is to reject subsequent findings that drew from a greater pool of information. The House Select Committee on Assassinations came to the conclusion that LHO fired 3 shots and that the 3rd shot killed him. The HSCA did eliminate many suspected groups like: the Soviets, the Cubans, the CIA, the FBI, the Secret Service, et al. most Lone Gunman theorists believe all of the above but depart when the committee said that a fourth (4th) shot was fired. Read the report and then come back and explain why they did not get that element correct.
I don't need to go back and read the report, because if you go far back enough in this thread I explained how the multiple shots/multiple shooters scenario occurred, and the science involved.
For your enlightenment, I'll do so again, and address the "open mic" evidence that even under ideal conditions would be suspect.
When a projectile is fired, and the velocity of the projectile surpasses supersonic velocity (approx. 1100 feet per second, depending on atmospheric conditions) the projectile creates a following sound wave in it's wake. Here's an animation with aircraft as the example:
As the projectile moves through the air, at every single terrain feature it passes, organic or otherwise, it creates (for lack of a better term) a mini sonic boom that is clearly audible if A) the projectile passes along past your location in the bullet path B) you're downrange being shot at and the round is a clean miss C) you're the shooter, firing a well suppressed firearm.
This phenomenon was first noted on record by Hiram Maxim, the inventor of what he called a Silencer, when he fired a 1903 Springfield rifle in the standard Gov. 30/06 caliber with his invention - Maxim fired down a country road lined with telegraph poles, and his observation was that it sounded like a "battalion of machine guns" as the bullet passed each pole, the sonic boom was clearly audible to him.
How does this relate to Dealy? as LHO fired, different observers at different points along the bullet's path heard these MSB's, mistook the MSB's for muzzle blasts or misinterpreted them as being shooter locations, and from those observers came their eye (or ear, if you want to be accurate) witness accounts of more shots than the three established and documented rounds, different directions of fire, etc. and the rest is CT grist for the mill
What goes right along with the reality of this phenomenon is the inability of an open mic to do anything other than record ambient sounds. A mic at different points in a bullet trajectory could easily record multiple "shots" from one single round fired.
At this point, I need to make an argument from my personal experience.
During the course of my professional life I've been around, and have a bunch of personal experience with firearms all across the board, I'm a qualified expert witness, instructor, armorer, etc. I did six years in the Army and 15 years in the PD, I've worked overseas, and in the ABC examples I noted above I'm three for three.
Every so-called "impossibility" wrt the actual firearm, ballistics and the mechanics of marksmanship noted by the JFK assassination CT hawkers is flat out ********.
The shooting was nothing special, the 6.5 x 52 is a good if not great cartridge, the projectile has a very high sectional density (better penetration) compared to other common .30 caliber class service rifle rounds and one of the stupid mistakes JFK CT hawkers made early on is that many of them didn't account for the simple fact that LHO's first round was chambered before he mounted the piece for a cheek weld - early explanations tried to assert that LHO had to mount, aim and then chamber the first round...stupidity that only a non trained individual would even consider.*
Go back to the other thread and read my post on the first page - like I said, I had an unusual childhood and was raised to believe one of the standard CT's, but my life out in the world living in the reality of the piece of this story I'm most familiar with taught me that the various CT's out in the wild are based on misunderstanding at best, flat out ******** and opportunism at worst, and belief in those CT's are based more in ignorance than knowledge.
*Note. There is one JFK "researcher" and CT hawker that has an actual background as a trained professional.
Unfortunately, this individual wasn't satisfied with his own version of events, or maybe his book editor wanted some more horsepower in the story, so this individual claimed that when he attended LE marksman training run in conjunction with one of the greatest combat and competition marksman that ever lived, this individual claimed that the great man told him that the Marine scout/sniper school at Quantico had run a test to duplicate LHO's shooting, but nobody could duplicate the feat, including the great man.
The only problem?
No such test has ever taken place at the school - the military is very funny, they keep records of everything, and no such records exist.
For my part, I went through the same LE school run by the great man, and although he taught much, LHO, JFK and assassinations never came up, and no other individual involved with TGM or the school had ever heard him make any such claim.
The book written by the hawker dropped into obscurity afaik, but I wanted to touch on it because non-professionally trained JFK hawkers have grabbed onto this particular ******** story as "proof."
The other fact germane to this story, the book was published after the death of the The Great Man - Carlos Hathcock, USMC, 1942 - 1999.
Why suspect? And how is that a reflection of my "research skills?"
Again, you just continue to wallow in the same rhetorical assumption among JFK conspiracy theorists that everyone else has done so much less homework than they.
In research, everything is relevant until found out not to be.
I dispute your characterization and the value judgment it implies.
You, in fact, are neither a fact seeker nor a fact checker. You are a presumer. That has no place whatsoever in research or investigation. I have asked you multiple times to support your contention regarding the alleged secret documents. And you just basically admitted it's pure assumption on your part, which your critics are somehow obligated to disprove. I say "Nonsense." You have the burden of proof.
I have never said there is some sort of deep connection between Oswald and the CIA. Go ahead and apply one of your famous fallacies to yourself. You just applied a false assumption but I guess that is perfectly fine. Because I have no idea what the documents contain does not disqualify them from being possibly relevant. Your research skills are suspect if you actually believe your statement of "It is even more egregious for you then to admit you have no idea what these documents contain and therefore no reason to judge that they are relevant to your claim or anyone else's."
In research, everything is relevant until found out not to be... It is easy to Fact Check but it takes skill to Fact Find. You are a Fact Checker.
I don't know, maybe you should look at the facts that are in evidence, and not the ones you seem to assume exist, in documents that you haven't seen (and may or may not exist)?
If you have a better narrative about what happened on that day in Dallas...that fits the evidence and facts that we do have...I'm all ears.
Oh...also note that simply attempting to poke holes in the LHO single shooter theory does not qualify as a narrative.
Powerful forces within the CIA conspired to murder the President of the United States, but have left evidence of their guilt lying around the National Archives.
As you can see none of the deniers can answer how Oswald, sequestered in his remote barracks in Japan while allegedly plotting a defection, found out about an obscure CIA-connected college in Switzerland? Albert Schwietzer College was a classic CIA front with their typical missionary studies program just like Ruth Paine. On the board of directors was Percival Brundage who was the chief of CIA's Southern Air Transport airline.
Those who say Oswald was intellectually lacking and inept have to explain why he was cunningly sharp at finding these institutions and methods in order to make himself more desirable to the Soviets? Oswald was pretty crafty and high-functioning for the incapable loser they try to make him out to be. He managed to figure-out that Helsinki was the only city where visas to Russia were issued in less than two weeks. Marina said he was well-read and showed intellectual interest. He allegedly managed to get to Mexico City in order to get to Cuba. Oswald's true intellect arose when he gave a speech at Spring Hill College in Alabama where he warned that the biggest threat to Kennedy and America was from within. When he gave that speech he gave away his true self and true mission.
No, a dummy can't teach himself fluent Russian on his free time in the barracks. That just doesn't wash.
Gerry Patrick Hemming was worried CIA had put a tail on him in his efforts to contact the Cuban Consulate in Los Angeles. He asked a barber friend to see who was dropping Oswald off within walking distance of the consulate. The barber got a pair of binoculars and saw a military vehicle with military antenna drop Oswald off. This proves Oswald was within the knowledge and control of intel prior to his defection.
As you can see none of the deniers can answer how Oswald, sequestered in his remote barracks in Japan while allegedly plotting a defection, found out about an obscure CIA-connected college in Switzerland? Albert Schwietzer College was a classic CIA front with their typical missionary studies program just like Ruth Paine. On the board of directors was Percival Brundage who was the chief of CIA's Southern Air Transport airline.
Those who say Oswald was intellectually lacking and inept have to explain why he was cunningly sharp at finding these institutions and methods in order to make himself more desirable to the Soviets? Oswald was pretty crafty and high-functioning for the incapable loser they try to make him out to be. He managed to figure-out that Helsinki was the only city where visas to Russia were issued in less than two weeks. Marina said he was well-read and showed intellectual interest. He allegedly managed to get to Mexico City in order to get to Cuba. Oswald's true intellect arose when he gave a speech at Spring Hill College in Alabama where he warned that the biggest threat to Kennedy and America was from within. When he gave that speech he gave away his true self and true mission.
No, a dummy can't teach himself fluent Russian on his free time in the barracks. That just doesn't wash.
Gerry Patrick Hemming was worried CIA had put a tail on him in his efforts to contact the Cuban Consulate in Los Angeles. He asked a barber friend to see who was dropping Oswald off within walking distance of the consulate. The barber got a pair of binoculars and saw a military vehicle with military antenna drop Oswald off. This proves Oswald was within the knowledge and control of intel prior to his defection.
Here's a reasonable explanation, one that doesn't have any hint of skullduggery.
LHO saw something in print mentioning Albert Schwietzer College, recognized the name, told Marine buddy's he had a scholarship to attend classes there (classic self-aggrandizement of the LHO kind) and adopted a fiction. There is -0- evidence that he knew any actual facts about what or wasn't being conducted there, never went there even for a visit, and afaik never even applied there.
Not sexy, but it's more reasonable than LHO as 007 - come to think of it, LHO as 007 & is no more fictional than 'ol 007 himself.
BTW? fluent Russian? even after returning from the Soviet he didn't speak fluent Russian.
The only reference I could find of Oswald's "speech" at Spring Hill off the cuff that I could read (WC has docs, I'll go there later today) is this:
Less Speech than informal discussion and Q & A, and where is that reference to the threat to JFK?
And if you want to assert that LHO was such a skilled operator that he blows cover giving a speech, you're sort of trying to have your cake and eat it too.
LHO was a little man who wanted to be big - he didn't have the underlying practical ambition or intellect to make that happen in the world, so after not being a top Marine, he went to the Soviet's and they didn't make him anything other than a factory worker, that didn't work for him and he returned to CONUS, and they didn't make him a top spy, so he went back to a ****** little life - taking a potshot at Walker didn't get him where he wanted to be, so the next time he hunted big game.
ETA: BTW Jet, what exactly was that "CIA only" plastic explosive used in the radio station bomb?
The WC exhibits have copies of an application Oswald made to the college, but I don't see any evidence it was ever acted upon or acknowledged. It may have never even been sent.
The problem with the "obscure college" argument is that it's based on the begged question that the college was obscure and that Oswald wouldn't have had any way of knowing about it. That's not helped by replacing it with the less credible claim that Oswald was a sooper-seekret agent under deep cover.
BTW? fluent Russian? even after returning from the Soviet he didn't speak fluent Russian.
The WC exhibits have copies of an application Oswald made to the college, but I don't see any evidence it was ever acted upon or acknowledged. It may have never even been sent.
The problem with the "obscure college" argument is that it's based on the begged question that the college was obscure and that Oswald wouldn't have had any way of knowing about it. That's not helped by replacing it with the less credible claim that Oswald was a sooper-seekret agent under deep cover.
Are you saying that Oswald may have (gasp!) exaggerated his accomplishments?
I don't remember that OTT, but I'll take a look - as you're proven here to be reasonable I'll take it that this is true here, and I agree, I could see where LHO might have a application in hand to impress others, and then never send the application in.
IIRC there were statements from individuals in the White Russian community in Dallas that LHO was conversant, but not fluent, in Russian, and again, that was after having lived there.
Didn't LHO score poorly on a Russian language test while in the Corps?
I don't remember that OTT, but I'll take a look - as you're proven here to be reasonable I'll take it that this is true here, and I agree, I could see where LHO might have a application in hand to impress others, and then never send the application in.
Those who say Oswald was intellectually lacking and inept have to explain why he was cunningly sharp at finding these institutions and methods in order to make himself more desirable to the Soviets? Oswald was pretty crafty and high-functioning for the incapable loser they try to make him out to be.
...
No, a dummy can't teach himself fluent Russian on his free time in the barracks. That just doesn't wash.
I don't think anyone is saying that Oswald was a dummy. On the contrary, I suspect he was very bright. But he was an antisocial loser also. Those don't contradict each other.
Those who say Oswald was intellectually lacking and inept have to explain why he was cunningly sharp at finding these institutions and methods in order to make himself more desirable to the Soviets?
Oswald's true intellect arose when he gave a speech at Spring Hill College in Alabama where he warned that the biggest threat to Kennedy and America was from within. When he gave that speech he gave away his true self and true mission.
You are correct but as he didn't "teach himself fluent Russian" that's not really pertinent is it?
The barber got a pair of binoculars and saw a military vehicle with military antenna drop Oswald off. This proves Oswald was within the knowledge and control of intel prior to his defection.
Gerry Patrick Hemming was worried CIA had put a tail on him in his efforts to contact the Cuban Consulate in Los Angeles. He asked a barber friend to see who was dropping Oswald off within walking distance of the consulate. The barber got a pair of binoculars and saw a military vehicle with military antenna drop Oswald off. This proves Oswald was within the knowledge and control of intel prior to his defection.
" While no one was able to predict his attempt to defect to Russia within a month after he left the Marines, the testimony of those who knew him at El Toro in contrast to that of his associates in Japan, leaves no doubt that his thoughts were occupied increasingly with Russia and the Russian way of life. He had studied the Russian language enough by February 25, 1959, to request that he be given a foreign language qualification test; his rating was "poor" in all parts of the test"
I had remembered part of the above, but had forgotten this:
"In the spring, Oswald applied to Albert Schweitzer College in Churwalden, Switzerland, for admission to the spring term in 1960; the application is dated March 19.440 Schweitzer is a small school, which specializes in courses in religion, ethics, science, and literature. He claimed a proficiency in Russian equal to 1 year of schooling and that he had completed high school by correspondence with an average grade of 85 percent.442 He listed philosophy, psychology, ideology, football, baseball, tennis and stamp-collecting as special interests, and writing short stories "on contemporary American life" as his vocational interest.443 Jack London, Charles Darwin, and Norman Vincent Peale were listed as favorite authors.444 He claimed membership in the YMCA and the "A.Y.H. Association," and said that he had participated in a "student body movement in school" for the control of juvenile delinquency.445 Asked to give a general statement of his reasons for wanting to attend the college, he wrote:
In order to aquire a fuller understanding of that subject which interest me most, Philosophy. To meet with Europeans who can broaden my scope of understanding. To receive formal Education by Instructers of high standing and character. To broaden my knowlege of German and to live in a healty climate and Good moral atmosphere.
On the basis of these representations, Oswald's application was approved by the college.447 He enclosed a registration fee of $25 in a letter dated June 19, in which he said that he was "looking forward to a fine stay." 448 Few of the other marines seem to have known about this application. He told Delgado, however, that he planned to attend a Swiss school to study psychology, and Delgado knew that some application had been made.449 Another marine, Richard Call, also knew something of his plans."
Powerful forces within the CIA conspired to murder the President of the United States, but have left evidence of their guilt lying around the National Archives.
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