Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[CoulsdonUK]

At the end of the day, what you are going to find is that the state has an obligation to provide a fair trial. Part of that obligation is to disclose, and certainly not to suppress exculpatory evidence. When a fair trial has been denied in this manner, it does not matter whether it is by action of deceitful prosecutors or ineffective judges. On either case it is a violation of a very fundamental right.

I find your obfuscation and refusal to acknowledge that the EDFs should be produced to be most disingenuous and indicative of someone who hasn't the understanding or care for fundamental fairness and justice and truth. Good day, sir.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion, goodnight.

 

[Grinder]

His most important home was Piazza Grimana not a busy place where he observed the defendants , A place where anyone new or acting in an unusual manner would stand out to someone so familiar with the space.

when asked by the investigating police shortly after the crime he said nothing. He didn't come forward with the tale of unusual behavior sighting for months and only after the cub reporter convinced him. He had the day wrong in that he described Halloween and disco buses that weren't there. He admitted being high on heroin everyday including the night of Nov. 1st 2007.

People that owned businesses there saw nothing.

He didn't pick the kids out of a line-up and had months to read up on the details.

He was conveniently arrested on a 2003 dealing rap during the appeals trial and thereby was kept from the press and then conveniently died in prison.

What a joke. Oh and the other cases he testified in...

 

[Grinder]

If a person lies in court and therefore perjures themselves, that person is guilty of perjury and subverting justice. If the courts or the prosecutors don't charge that doesn't absolve their guilt.

I'm not sure that Hellmann could charge Stefanoni, are you?

Why didn't Mignini ask for charges as he did with Amanda's parents et al.

Didn't he charge Amanda for what she said in court? It wasn't Massei was it?

Did Massei charge anyone?

ETA - you seem hellbent to have someone here agree with you that it was Hellmann's fault and he is a lousy judge. If he could charge Stefanoni I think he should. I disagreed with his calunnia verdict and thought his reasoning on Rudy's losing his shoe was whacky. But he got the beyond a reasonable doubt part spot on.

 

[Briars]

when asked by the investigating police shortly after the crime he said nothing. He didn't come forward with the tale of unusual behavior sighting for months and only after the cub reporter convinced him. He had the day wrong in that he described Halloween and disco buses that weren't there. He admitted being high on heroin everyday including the night of Nov. 1st 2007.

People that owned businesses there saw nothing.

He didn't pick the kids out of a line-up and had months to read up on the details.

He was conveniently arrested on a 2003 dealing rap during the appeals trial and thereby was kept from the press and then conveniently died in prison.

What a joke. Oh and the other cases he testified in...

Arrested and died in prison "conveniently" really, part of the bigger plot ?? Students would have been in costumes Nov 1 as well.Halloween is not a traditional Italian holiday and has only been celebrated this decade. Hardly a big mistake, more important that the accused were not there Halloween night by their own alibi's and Curatolo was certain he saw the men in white coats the day after the sighting.

 

[Briars]

when asked by the investigating police shortly after the crime he said nothing. He didn't come forward with the tale of unusual behavior sighting for months and only after the cub reporter convinced him. He had the day wrong in that he described Halloween and disco buses that weren't there. He admitted being high on heroin everyday including the night of Nov. 1st 2007.

People that owned businesses there saw nothing.

He didn't pick the kids out of a line-up and had months to read up on the details.

He was conveniently arrested on a 2003 dealing rap during the appeals trial and thereby was kept from the press and then conveniently died in prison.

What a joke. Oh and the other cases he testified in...

There is no business that faces the cottage , other than the car park . What about the other trial that he testified as a witness wasn't there a conviction? Was it another innocent framed?

 

[Bill Williams]

Nara wasn't the only witness who heard noise or a scream. Google Piazza Grimana on utube you can hear and see the traffic ,the trees and the large building near the piazza blocking the cottage. Nara's window has nothing in front of it, you can hear dogs barking below the cottage from the parking lot. Then try give a thoughtful post that doesn't include words like desperate or you want them 'to be guilty', can you do that Bill?If not not to worry perhaps a sound study is in order. Maybe the upcoming British tv show might include something.

The "screams" which were heard were so profound that what did anyone who heard them do?

Nothing. Apparently no one thought them relevant....

.... until the police heard Nara on TV tell a reporter that she thought she heard screams on Nov 1. And this happened months' later - in an atmosphere where literally NO evidence at all implicated Knox or Sollecito - and they were still in jail.

The police ran with that TV report without bothering to interview Nara at all, proclaiming that evidence WAS forthcoming. The trouble with this knee-jerk reaction by the police was that by the time they did interview Nara it became clear that she could not tell which day it happened. A 48 Hours TV investigation of Nara actually did the test - and they said it was inconclusive.

In short Nara has nothing really to contribute to justice for Meredith Kercher.

My "desperate" remark was your claim that the valley somehow amplifies noise. For me, and it may not for others, but for me the intent was to say something "guilt-like".

 

[Diocletus]

While the piazza itself isn't busy the kiosk is near a busy traffic stop. Four lanes funnel into that intersection next to the square, The other thing to note is although the gate is clearly visible from the rail the drive and cottage were not. In fact a 3 story building and dense trees blocked the cottage from the Piazza and would muffle any sounds that might have been heard.This is why it makes sense that Curatolo was not startled by the scream. Nara's window faced the cottage with nothing in the way. A scream would have echoed in the valley and traveled straight to her closed window.

Honestly, this sounds like a bunch of hooey to me. But I suppose if you want to believe that these people are guilty, then you will convince yourself that it all means something.

 

[Bill Williams]

At the end of the day, what you are going to find is that the state has an obligation to provide a fair trial. Part of that obligation is to disclose, and certainly not to suppress exculpatory evidence. When a fair trial has been denied in this manner, it does not matter whether it is by action of deceitful prosecutors or ineffective judges. On either case it is a violation of a very fundamental right.

I find your obfuscation and refusal to acknowledge that the EDFs should be produced to be most disingenuous and indicative of someone who hasn't the understanding or care for fundamental fairness and justice and truth. Good day, sir.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion, goodnight.

There are two issues. One is whether or not Stefanoni should have produced the EDFs. The second is who should ultimately be held accountable for Stefanoni's refusal.

I think CoulsdonUK's position here is clear. He's implied that, yes, Stefanoni SHOULD have produced them. Why? Because Hellmannn ordered it.

But I tend to agree with CoulsdonUK, that ultimately it is Hellmann's responsibility to follow up with non-compliance with the consequence, a consequence that Hellmann did not, then, do.

Where CoulsdonUK and I may disagree is with Hellmann's rationale, if he even had one. For me, Hellmann is still entrenched in the club of prosecutors/judges. I believe that Hellmann offered a saw-off verdict that allowed innocent people to go free while serving that other obvious agenda in Italian jurisprudence - saving face.

Hellmann's mistake was not in setting the innocent free, it was miscalculating what his peers would do. I'm not sure it could be any more obvious than with the Kercher murder prosecutions that a major element is the "place" of judges/prosecutors in Italian society - the "brook no criticism" that nearly all of Italy seems to put up with.

What happened with Stefanoni is only a small part in this larger morality tale. But essentially I believe that CoulsdonUK has answered.

Stefanoni should have turned over the EDF's. AND - Hellmann bears ultimate responsibility for not prying them out of her fingers.

Both those things are true.

 

[Bill Williams]

There is no business that faces the cottage , other than the car park . What about the other trial that he testified as a witness wasn't there a conviction? Was it another innocent framed?

Great question.

Sometimes prosecutors manufacture a case against someone who is guilty as well. In civilized societies, they still let these guilty bastards go, because the larger evil is the illegal/dirty tactics the state uses to prosecute people.

 

[Dan O.]

For me Hellmann is responsible, he asked for the EDF’s Stefanoni didn’t produce them and Hellmann allowed it, for me it’s not a question of should it happen, but why didn’t happen.

Is Hellmann responsible if the EDF's are not produced in the upcoming trial?

 

[Diocletus]

Is Hellmann responsible if the EDF's are not produced in the upcoming trial?

I blame George Bush.

 

[Briars]

The "screams" which were heard were so profound that what did anyone who heard them do?

Nothing. Apparently no one thought them relevant....

.... until the police heard Nara on TV tell a reporter that she thought she heard screams on Nov 1. And this happened months' later - in an atmosphere where literally NO evidence at all implicated Knox or Sollecito - and they were still in jail.

The police ran with that TV report without bothering to interview Nara at all, proclaiming that evidence WAS forthcoming. The trouble with this knee-jerk reaction by the police was that by the time they did interview Nara it became clear that she could not tell which day it happened. A 48 Hours TV investigation of Nara actually did the test - and they said it was inconclusive.

In short Nara has nothing really to contribute to justice for Meredith Kercher.

My "desperate" remark was your claim that the valley somehow amplifies noise. For me, and it may not for others, but for me the intent was to say something "guilt-like".

There were not "screams" just one and that is an important distinction. Waking up to one you would listen question what you heard and keep listening. That is why Nara couldn't justify calling police , she didn't hear fighting or screaming she heard one scream running then nothing. Nara said she hadn't heard a scream like that before, which made it stand out. As far as the noise can you hear a dog barking coming from the valley in Piazza Grimana or hear people talking outside on the cottage patio? No absolutely not the trees ,buildings , traffic noise and distance prevent that, but guess what you can hear both these sounds standing in the upper parking lot facing the cottage.It is the nature of the landscape with no obstruction, If these sounds carry up to the parking lot then a loud scream would certainly be heard through a closed window above.

 

[Diocletus]

There were not "screams" just one and that is an important distinction. Waking up to one you would listen question what you heard and keep listening. That is why Nara couldn't justify calling police , she didn't hear fighting or screaming she heard one scream running then nothing. Nara said she hadn't heard a scream like that before, which made it stand out. As far as the noise can you hear a dog barking coming from the valley in Piazza Grimana or hear people talking outside on the cottage patio? No absolutely not the trees ,buildings , traffic noise and distance prevent that, but guess what you can hear both these sounds standing in the upper parking lot facing the cottage.It is the nature of the landscape with no obstruction, If these sounds carry up to the parking lot then a loud scream would certainly be heard through a closed window above.

If curatalo farted, would that noise also funnel straight up through naras closed window and wake her up?

Or maybe a shattering window--would Nara hear that?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

costume party

Arrested and died in prison "conveniently" really, part of the bigger plot ?? Students would have been in costumes Nov 1 as well.Halloween is not a traditional Italian holiday and has only been celebrated this decade. Hardly a big mistake, more important that the accused were not there Halloween night by their own alibi's and Curatolo was certain he saw the men in white coats the day after the sighting.

Even under the best of circumstances eyewitness testimony is problematic (consider the book Picking Cotton, for example). Can you back up your claim about students' being in costumes on Nov. 1?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

bingo

Is Hellmann responsible if the EDF's are not produced in the upcoming trial?

Best question of the day. We can add, "Was Massei responsible for their not being produced at the trial of first instance?"

 

[Briars]

If curatalo farted, would that noise also funnel straight up through naras closed window and wake her up?

Or maybe a shattering window--would Nara hear that?

That's it ? thanks for sharing your best. Who on PMF said this thread was embarrassing?

 

[Bill Williams]

There were not "screams" just one and that is an important distinction. Waking up to one you would listen question what you heard and keep listening. That is why Nara couldn't justify calling police , she didn't hear fighting or screaming she heard one scream running then nothing. Nara said she hadn't heard a scream like that before, which made it stand out. As far as the noise can you hear a dog barking coming from the valley in Piazza Grimana or hear people talking outside on the cottage patio? No absolutely not the trees ,buildings , traffic noise and distance prevent that, but guess what you can hear both these sounds standing in the upper parking lot facing the cottage.It is the nature of the landscape with no obstruction, If these sounds carry up to the parking lot then a loud scream would certainly be heard through a closed window above.

What is amazing is watching this description of what Nara was supposed or not supposed to have heard or claimed literally evolve from post to post. This is what I call "solid evidence". Not.

Regardless, Nara still cannot be sure if it was Oct 31 or Nov 1. The police still made claims about what she would testify to, even before interviewing her.

Nara simply is not a reliable witness on those points... regardless of whether she dreamt one scream, heard screams, or whether or not the geography of the valley focussed the noise on her flat.

There are some people in this world who are desperate to make some other people in this world seem guilty on the most fanciful of suppositions.

 

[Grinder]

Arrested and died in prison "conveniently" really, part of the bigger plot ?? Students would have been in costumes Nov 1 as well.Halloween is not a traditional Italian holiday and has only been celebrated this decade. Hardly a big mistake, more important that the accused were not there Halloween night by their own alibi's and Curatolo was certain he saw the men in white coats the day after the sighting.

He would have been interviewed many times had he not been tried for a crime that was 8 years old by that time. He kept babbling that he didn't understand why he was in court. Of course, it was the day before the police arrived to do their CSI work. The problem is he had the disco buses and costumes that weren't there that night . Of course since the Italians don't know how to do Halloween correctly they wear tehre costumes on the day of the dead a traditional Italian holiday where they pay homage to their dead by wearing George Bush masks, right.

What does the fact that they weren't there on Halloween have to do with it? He never saw them in the plaza, not Halloween not the day after probably never. He had nothing that indicated he had ever seen them. It's not like he spoke up the next day or two and picked them out of a line-up.

In fact his 9:30 to just before midnight testimony gave them an alibi which was corrected by Mignini by having another witness state that the buses were gone by 11:30 so it had to be before then, except the buses weren't there that night.

There is no business that faces the cottage , other than the car park . What about the other trial that he testified as a witness wasn't there a conviction? Was it another innocent framed?

I didn't write anything about a business facing the cottage. There is a kiosk in the plaza and the people working there saw nothing.

Perhaps a guilty person was convicted by bogus testimony. It is a well known trick used by LE everywhere to get "witnesses" to help get the bad guys.

 

[Briars]

Can you say there were none? In my city people are in costume for up to three nights depending when Halloween falls.

 

[RandyN]

No I haven’t changed the subject, like everyone else here I have answered in the manner of my choosing which is to point out the weakness of Hellmann, given the simple fact that the EDF’s were not produced.

I happen to agree with you Coulsdon...except for the highlighted part. Hellmann was not weak. He was corrupt. Not as corrupt as the rest of the ole boys club but there was certainly a method to his madness.

Early on he certainly saw what was happening in this case. A set up with no proof and a case without evidence for what the prosecutor was trying to prove.

None the less he is a member of the club and so we see him stating in his report that he understands how and why the prosecution brought this case...very odd comment.

Next he finds Knox guilty even after going to lengths to explain why she should not be found guilty for things supposedly said during her illegal interrogation. This is where he does the crazy Italian "logic" thing....that would be the opposite of all logic IMO.

The reason? To allow everyone who should be facing investigations and charges ....Mignini, Stefanoni, Ficerra, Napolini, Giobbi etc to save that embarrassment and to save some amount of face. But the big plus was for Italy. Knox could not file charges for wrongful arrest and confinement. She "committed a crime" and got 3 years...note how he extended the original time from the slander charge so as to include all her time in prison.

So he was not weak...he tried to give these idiots an out. And as thanks they were too stupid to take advantage of that chance. Now it will be much harder for a judge to pull any shenanigans. The microscopes of the world are about to focused on Florence. Should be quite interesting.