Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Kaosium]

I find it believable that Nara Capezzali did hear something that night. From her own testimony, she thought the time was between 11:00 and 12:30 that night. She heard a long protracted screech that at first she thought was a car crash.

What we know from other testimony is that at 11 pm there were at least 5 witnesses in front of the cottage that night. All of them say that the cottage was dark and quiet. But what about themselves? We're they ever asked if they were being quiet?

While 4 of those witnesses had no reason to make a sound other than quiet talking, the fifth was there to do a job. His job was to hook up the disabled car and haul it away. Tow truck operations can make a lot of noise. if Nara is going to be heard again, I think the court should also hear from this tow truck operator. The best time to hear from him would be durring Nara's testimony as he hooks up Mignini's car and hauls it away.

LOL!!!

I love this post, it not only offers a plausible explanation for what Nara might have heard around that time, it created a mental image of Mignini running after his Fiat (or whatever) screaming like a madman.

'Dem Duuuuuukes!!!!!'

 

[Chris_Halkides]

What a stinking pile of rose fertilizer the ISC report is. Dan O. would remember better than I do, but did we not decide that 12:47 PM in Perugia on that day would be 4:47 AM Seattle time? IMO 4:47 AM is not the middle of the night.

 

[Mary_H]

The ISC motivations report cites two pieces of evidence to demonstrate that Amanda Knox had prior knowledge of what was behind the locked door of Meredith's room. The report goes to great pains to show why these two piece are independent of each other.

The first concerns the English girls' testimony to Massei's court, where the girls say that Knox told them what turned out to be an accurate description of the crime scene. Knox herself denies this. All agree that Knox was not in a position to see inside the room once the door was opened.

Also, The ISC says that Knox bragged to them that she was the first one to find Meredith.

I'm not sure of what to make of the English girls testimony, when even Judge Massei disbelieved them on other aspects - like that Meredith and Amanda's relationship was deteriorating.

But it is curious that the ISC would choose to highlight the timing of the conversations with her mother, citing this as an independent corroboration of what the ISC says the English girls claim.

Please note, the timing of this call is at 12:47 PM, which makes one wonder why the ISC sees it as so determinative that Amanda is showing "anxiety". Most certainly Amanda is full value for being "anxious" as to Meredith's (then) unknown whereabouts.

For me this is precisely the double-bind the PLE and guilters continue to put her in; both anxiety and calmness are seen as suspicious.

I hope this is fully investigated by the Florence court, including a return of the English girls to testify, esp. if the ISC sees this as determinative.

Good point, Bill. Amanda and Raffaele called people because of the evidence of a break-in and other signs of disorder, not because of the "event." If she wanted to demonstrate (false) anxiety, she would not have bothered to make two trips to the cottage; she would have called everybody on the first trip.

The claim that Amanda described the crime scene because she knew what it looked like does not stand up to the judges' famous tests of logic. Amanda knew Meredith's foot was sticking out. If she and Raffaele had covered Meredith, why would they leave her foot sticking out?

 

[RandyN]

For the same reason you would if your daughter had been murdered in Italy and the case against her killers had still not been finalised.

Well the case was solved when the lone killer Rudy Guede was finally arrested in Germany and returned to Italy.

The case against the wrongly accused and jailed students continues despite no evidence, witnesses, motive, video or even a coherent time line that proves guilt or involvement in way what so ever... In fact what has been presented so far up to and including the SC motivation report indicates that corrupt officials are making this up as they go along.

Only the weakest of minds gloss over all the elephants in the room of the prosecutions case. The Italian SC who has an idiot as the leader ...and who is likely gearing up for the 911 anniversary. He thinks the USA destroyed the twin towers. I suppose he finds no issues in his SC making illegal evidence based rulings. Forget that they are also gigantically illogical and well... just plain idiotic.

I would have a lawyer too if my daughter was killed in Italy and the cops and prosecutor let the murderer get away with just a relative slap on the hand for his brutality.

Merediths mother seems to be the single Kercher who understands exactly what happened and she was surprised by the SC decision. Not about her daughters killer Rudy Guede...but about the case against the wrongly accused roommate and her boyfriend. She knows they are not involved. Just as the rest of the thinking world does. She has so far remained silent about the light sentence given to the killer rapist Rudy Guede.

 

[Dan O.]

What a stinking pile of rose fertilizer the ISC report is. Dan O. would remember better than I do, but did we not decide that 12:47 PM in Perugia on that day would be 4:47 AM Seattle time? IMO 4:47 AM is not the middle of the night.

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converted.html?iso=20071101T1245&p1=157&p2=234

On that date in Seattle, middle of the night is technically 12:53 am. Sunrise was at 7:53 am. 4:47 is past half way to morning.

 

[Bill Williams]

Good point, Bill. Amanda and Raffaele called people because of the evidence of a break-in and other signs of disorder, not because of the "event." If she wanted to demonstrate (false) anxiety, she would not have bothered to make two trips to the cottage; she would have called everybody on the first trip.

The claim that Amanda described the crime scene because she knew what it looked like does not stand up to the judges' famous tests of logic. Amanda knew Meredith's foot was sticking out. If she and Raffaele had covered Meredith, why would they leave her foot sticking out?

The disturbing thing about the ISC motivations report, is that it is written as if it was the result of a third, witness calling, evidence entering, fact-finding trial.

I had to keep reminding myself that it took 90 days to write this motivations report, but that the "trial" which produced it was only one of perhaps 15 that day. No wonder they had to delay the decision until the next morning, the motivations report sounds like the defence and prosecution had opportunity to examine and cross-examine witnesses....

If you just handed the motivations to someone and asked them to scan through - and then asked, "How long do you think the trial lasted that produced this...?" my guess is that they'd think it was a month long trial.

It's not so much the findings of fact in it that is disturbing... it's that they disguise it as if it was simply a demonstration of the illogic of the Hellmann court.

I mean, was the multiple attacker theory really at issue in the Hellmann court or was it simply if Raffaele or Amanda were part of the crime, multiple or not? Why's Hellmann's logic on that faulty?

This is really disturbing.

 

[RandyN]

The ISC motivations report cites two pieces of evidence to demonstrate that Amanda Knox had prior knowledge of what was behind the locked door of Meredith's room. The report goes to great pains to show why these two piece are independent of each other.

The first concerns the English girls' testimony to Massei's court, where the girls say that Knox told them what turned out to be an accurate description of the crime scene. Knox herself denies this. All agree that Knox was not in a position to see inside the room once the door was opened.

Also, The ISC says that Knox bragged to them that she was the first one to find Meredith.

I'm not sure of what to make of the English girls testimony, when even Judge Massei disbelieved them on other aspects - like that Meredith and Amanda's relationship was deteriorating.

But it is curious that the ISC would choose to highlight the timing of the conversations with her mother, citing this as an independent corroboration of what the ISC says the English girls claim.

Please note, the timing of this call is at 12:47 PM, which makes one wonder why the ISC sees it as so determinative that Amanda is showing "anxiety". Most certainly Amanda is full value for being "anxious" as to Meredith's (then) unknown whereabouts.

For me this is precisely the double-bind the PLE and guilters continue to put her in; both anxiety and calmness are seen as suspicious.



I hope this is fully investigated by the Florence court, including a return of the English girls to testify, esp. if the ISC sees this as determinative.

And why exactly would AK not be able to describe the murder room to the English virgins? She spent all afternoon outside with and even rode downtown with the person who broke down the door. Nothing indicates that the police separated all those present after the body was discovered. Filomena certainly saw the crime scene because she was the person screaming "a foot", the guy who broke the door also testified that he saw the police go into the room and his GF also saw this. Who would not discuss what they saw in there? It would be illogical for AK or RS to not ask what the others saw. And it would be illogical for those who saw that mess to not want to tell about it in the minutes and hours after that shocking discovery.

This is not evidence of anything. In fact one has to be an idiot to not simply put one plus one together. Duhhh geee I guess Filomena told Amanda what she saw...or duh....I guess Palo or who ever told AK and RS what he saw when he walked up to see what the cop was doing...or else what he saw when he broke down the door...duhhh....Italians must be incredibly stupid or else grossly illogical....or maybe its corrupt???

Did Knox brag to the virgins? Or did she state what she thought about the whole morning in retrospect knowing she took a shower with a dead body just feet away or that the guy might have still been there...btw this was a real concern for her after she thought the poo had disappeared...which it turns out was a lapse in her observational skill...WAFS.

Massei was the dumbest judge on earth until the SC picked up his fumble and ran in the wrong direction. Now as Hellmann stated who will they task with convicting innocent persons with zero evidence of guilt?

Will this new court let the defense question why police failed to investigate Lumumba or his house? Will the defense be smart enough to even ask why the cops failed to check out Lumumbas stuff?

Diocletus laid out the detail to ask about in the DNA sample numbers. I would add that the EDF's be requested...no demanded. Plus the control data sheets that were already supposedly entered into the trial record but which were undeliverable during the appeal. The prosecution has had a couple of years now...they should have all that together and in order right? All one need expect is for the brilliant defenses to simply ask for these basic records...should be straightforward enough.

 

[JREF2010]

I get the impression the ISC made about a 3hr assessment of the case.
Then during the report write up the ISC referenced a bunch of garbage and spent a few more hours on it.

Its the only thing that makes sense to how they drudge up these old accusations of bystanders after the fact, "gut instinct" superstition like comments made by Filomena or someone even more clueless, disregarding other testimonys of Luca and Paola who testified they told Raffaele and Raffaelle then told Amanda of the murder room scene.

The ISC seems to have a very shallow depth of knowledge about this case, which is understandable as their system is such a mess and backed up, they probably spent very little time on this case.

As Frank always said Nara didnt see anything. Shes a good witness for the defense.

 

[Diocletus]

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converted.html?iso=20071101T1245&p1=157&p2=234

On that date in Seattle, middle of the night is technically 12:53 am. Sunrise was at 7:53 am. 4:47 is past half way to morning.

Unless her mother wakes up at 5:00, as some people do, and in that case, 4:47 is just the plain old morning.

 

[Grinder]

The phone call is a red herring. People make mistakes figuring time differences often. Amanda could have thought it was 5:47 or 7:47 at night. Or more likely it didn't cross her mind at all, she just called. The SO's kids used to call at all hours and they live in the same time zone.

Time is running short and the defense needs to start making public it's requests in terms of witnesses and experts.

 

[Diocletus]

Plus the control data sheets that were already supposedly entered into the trial record but which were undeliverable during the appeal.

The controls have been suppressed, no doubt in my mind.

A positive control (via a lab standard mix) was amplified for each PCR run. The positive control was then subjected to electrophoresis and generated an egram which was given a particular serial number, which we can identify in some cases or approximate.

The egram collection bears a range of sequential bates stamps, that likely corresponds with the order in which they were submitted to the paper court file. In all cases, the egram bearing the serial number that would correspond to the positive control is absent from the bates-stamped egram collection.

 

[Bill Williams]

The phone call is a red herring. People make mistakes figuring time differences often. Amanda could have thought it was 5:47 or 7:47 at night. Or more likely it didn't cross her mind at all, she just called. The SO's kids used to call at all hours and they live in the same time zone.

Time is running short and the defense needs to start making public it's requests in terms of witnesses and experts.

If the phone call is a red herring, why is it in the motivations report? The phone call is supposed to be the corroboration of another red herring, that Knox knew stuff about what was behind the closed door that she should not have known?

RandyN asks the blindingly obvious question..... even if she had not personally witnessed it, why is it a stretch to think that Filomena and others who did witness it talked about what they saw to all who'd listen, including Knox? Based on the very last telephone call Knox made as a free woman (from the Questura with Filomena about their potential new living arrangements) why WOULDN'T Filomena tell Knox everything? Knox was the flatmate closest to Meredith.

So there's a red herring in the ISC motivations report cited as corroboration for another red herring. And the ISC throws it back for yet a third hearing because it says it was illogical for Hellmann not to investigate all this.

Is there SOMEONE who will defend the ISC on this point - and save Italy from the embarrassment of the top court in the country?

More important - is this the country you want to do business with?

 

[Grinder]

Diocletus and Kaosium should put together a primer on DNA intended for use by the defense. People need to understand what LCN or touch DNA is all about. I'm sure I've already written something incorrectly (right Chris?). Chris' explanations seem too technical to me.

People don't generally understand that DNA was primarily used to identify found evidence. LE would find semen, blood, or something clearly involved with a crime and then could identify the contributor using DNA. Now, we have LCN DNA found or alleged to be found on or in things that have no direct relationship to the crime. The knife as we all know wasn't one that matched anything to do with the crime, not the outline, not the size of the wounds, not the hilt bruise nor was there blood found yet the ICSI claim MK's DNA on it. How many knives at the pizza party may have MK's DNA? Didn't she show PL how she made mojitos and maybe left a little DNA on a knife from cutting limes.

The general public doesn't understand the difference between DNA found in a suspicious place and seen and DNA found using LCN techniques. They also have no idea how collection, transport and testing need to be. The PGP refrain that if this DNA isn't allowed then all DNA can't be used, shows the ignorance that abounds.

 

[Grinder]

dupe

 

[Diocletus]

Diocletus and Kaosium should put together a primer on DNA intended for use by the defense. People need to understand what LCN or touch DNA is all about. I'm sure I've already written something incorrectly (right Chris?). Chris' explanations seem too technical to me.

People don't generally understand that DNA was primarily used to identify found evidence. LE would find semen, blood, or something clearly involved with a crime and then could identify the contributor using DNA. Now, we have LCN DNA found or alleged to be found on or in things that have no direct relationship to the crime. The knife as we all know wasn't one that matched anything to do with the crime, not the outline, not the size of the wounds, not the hilt bruise nor was there blood found yet the ICSI claim MK's DNA on it. How many knives at the pizza party may have MK's DNA? Didn't she show PL how she made mojitos and maybe left a little DNA on a knife from cutting limes.

The general public doesn't understand the difference between DNA found in a suspicious place and seen and DNA found using LCN techniques. They also have no idea how collection, transport and testing need to be. The PGP refrain that if this DNA isn't allowed then all DNA can't be used, shows the ignorance that abounds.

My thoughts are collected at "Reconstructing the Labwork" on IA.

 

[codyjuneau]

Diocletus and Kaosium should put together a primer on DNA intended for use by the defense. People need to understand what LCN or touch DNA is all about. I'm sure I've already written something incorrectly (right Chris?). Chris' explanations seem too technical to me.

People don't generally understand that DNA was primarily used to identify found evidence. LE would find semen, blood, or something clearly involved with a crime and then could identify the contributor using DNA. Now, we have LCN DNA found or alleged to be found on or in things that have no direct relationship to the crime. The knife as we all know wasn't one that matched anything to do with the crime, not the outline, not the size of the wounds, not the hilt bruise nor was there blood found yet the ICSI claim MK's DNA on it. How many knives at the pizza party may have MK's DNA? Didn't she show PL how she made mojitos and maybe left a little DNA on a knife from cutting limes.

The general public doesn't understand the difference between DNA found in a suspicious place and seen and DNA found using LCN techniques. They also have no idea how collection, transport and testing need to be. The PGP refrain that if this DNA isn't allowed then all DNA can't be used, shows the ignorance that abounds.

.
Here is a link to a site which I find useful:

http://www.nfstc.org/pdi/Subject00/pdi_s00.htm
.

 

[Bill Williams]

Here's a pic of one of the Scientific Police kicking out of the way some of Meredith's undergarments.

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/gallery/image.php?mode=thumbnail&image_id=342

It's part of a series of pics snapped seconds apart which show his/her movements, and can be seen at IA/IIP.

This is the manner in which the SP treated the crimescene. Why are we even arguing about the DNA "evidence"?

 

[Bill Williams]

This is the life of a Supreme Court judge......

 

[GreyFox]

For starters I would open up with the pink bathroom photo and explain to the jury that this picture represents the case against Knox and Sollecito.

Then I would call a member's of the PLE to the stand and ask them to explain the test and process to cause this bathroom to turn pink. Maybe ask if the press was on hand during the test. Followed by ...How did they (the press) get the picture? Was there a robbery at the police station? Did it fall out of someone's briefcase? Hmmmm

Every chance you get during the trial break this photo out. Remind the jury that its all smoke and mirrors . If you feel the need to point to something across the room point with the photo. It's hot...Use it to fan yourself while questioning Steffanoni. Get the point.

Definitely ask for the suppressed egram s spoken by Diocletus on each item listed for sure !

For closing : I would list every piece of evidence that the PLE destroyed.

Ask if it's ok that these two's alibi (hard drives) was destroyed by the PLE crippling their defense.

As well as every thing they didn't check for, like who's semen stain, blood in the handle of the knife , or where's the knife that made the blood stain on the bed etc. God only knows. Yes, I went there since we found out he's friends with the PM!!! Maybe he can tell us where its at?

Last but not least. Break out that photo again and ask the jury one last time if the evidence presented by the prosecutor was real or ...hold up the picture !!!

 

[GreyFox]

Twilight Zone

How many people tell their kids to call if there in trouble no matter what time it is. Who wouldn't want to know there kids had a serious problem regardless of what time it is. We train them from knee high to come wake us up when there scared. I would think if they thought someone was hurt or a stranger was in the house they would call the police as well as their parents. Did the other roommates call their parents? I bet they did. After their lawyers maybe but nonetheless I bet they did.

The police asked Rafael questions that should have gone to Amanda or one of the roommates. He tried to be helpful and answer the best he could. I thought he did ok considering. Again you really have to stretch to make innocent things look guilty.

This case has reached new heights for sure. We now have a prosecutor who used to talk to a satanic prophetess or whatever but know talks to someone claiming to be the Messiah about a witch who seems to have more powers than them both together ??? At least at cleaning DNA up anyhow ! Maybe the mother ship will land (Kool aid party) and take all this nonsense away with it !