Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Dan O.]

Should we be telling John Kercher that he should be keeping a low profile, that he shouldn't be talking to the press or writting books about Meredith's death?

 

[Dan O.]

Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case?

If you have a problem with the current title of this thread, take it up with the forum administrator that set it. If your issue is that the case has been going on for so long, that should be addressed to the Italian authorities.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>The cub reporter should be put on the stand.

Giacomo Olsen?!

 

[Chris_Halkides]

kudzu

When comments like those go by unchallenged you have some responsibility , that's why I speak up.

One your premise is faulty; each person bears responsibility for what he or she says. Two, Bill has responded to comments that were critical of the Kercher family, and so have I. Any attempt to portray it differently is a willful misrepresentation of the truth. Just as attempts to twist criticisms of Ergon as a "reporter," or of Curatolo as a "witness" into issues of spirituality or homelessness are willful misrepresentations. People can judge for themselves about who is responsible for these misleading deflections. As far as I am concerned, they are different vines from the same kudzu root.
ETA
By your logic, any time pro-innocence supporters are subject to irrelevant and uncivil attacks, you should hold yourself responsible to put things right. I'll leave it to you to demonstrate that you have indeed done so.

 

[Mary_H]

One your premise is faulty; each person bears responsibility for what he or she says. Two, Bill has responded to comments that were critical of the Kercher family, and so have I. Any attempt to portray it differently is a willful misrepresentation of the truth. Just as attempts to twist criticisms of Ergon as a "reporter," or of Curatolo as a "witness" into issues of spirituality or homelessness are willful misrepresentations. People can judge for themselves about who is responsible for these misleading deflections. As far as I am concerned, they are different vines from the same kudzu root.
ETA
By your logic, any time pro-innocence supporters are subject to irrelevant and uncivil attacks, you should hold yourself responsible to put things right. I'll leave it to you to demonstrate that you have indeed done so.

Apropos of Briars's concerns, Ergon recently wrote this:

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: XXVII. MAIN DISCUSSION, MARCH 29 -

But let me tell you this. I am done censoring myself because I am an admin of this site. I am a spiritual person, first, and I have spiritual views. As I suppose many others do, and I intend to express, not, my personal spiritual beliefs, but my spiritual take on THIS case. There is much in your philosophy, Horatio, etc

And malvern has it right. They aren't attacking me, they are attacking every thing to do with the case, and they are attacking me not for my views, but my work on it.

Fair enough.

 

[acbytesla]

Know him personally no nor do I need to. I speak up when the Kercher's are bashed here as well. I was offended with the comments towards Toto. There is something wrong about mocking someone's faith , race or position in life. It seemed obvious to me that Ergon was someone you wanted to discredit, which translates that the message , not the spiritual one, was somehow threatening.

I have no problem mocking someone who thinks he's the messiah and at the same time condemns two innocent kids like Amanda and Raffaele. If Ergon can't stand the heat, get out of the fire.

As for negative comments about Toto, My attitude toward him is that he is an unfortunate stooge for the Perugian authorities. He's a homeless guy who probably is a bit of a loon. I feel sorry for Toto, but that doesn't mean I think he's credible or reliable.
There is nothing wrong with mocking the fact that Toto is being used as a witness. I mock the fact that he can't tell the difference between October 31 and November 1. I mock the fact that he's been a prosecution witness in 3 murder trials. I mock the fact that he only came forward after a year.

 

[Briars]

One your premise is faulty; each person bears responsibility for what he or she says. Two, Bill has responded to comments that were critical of the Kercher family, and so have I. Any attempt to portray it differently is a willful misrepresentation of the truth. Just as attempts to twist criticisms of Ergon as a "reporter," or of Curatolo as a "witness" into issues of spirituality or homelessness are willful misrepresentations. People can judge for themselves about who is responsible for these misleading deflections. As far as I am concerned, they are different vines from the same kudzu root.
ETA
By your logic, any time pro-innocence supporters are subject to irrelevant and uncivil attacks, you should hold yourself responsible to put things right. I'll leave it to you to demonstrate that you have indeed done so.

Did I direct my comment about the Kerchers to you or Bill directly, no, you suggested that negative comments against them were only innuendo and wanted proof. Are you and Bill moderators always present here? We all have a responsibility to speak up against the unspeakable, if you or someone happen to do it first I don't have to. The times I spoke up no one had , so I don't get your point. Bill did say the Kerchers get a pass and I agree, regardless if you think the defendants are innocent.

 

[acbytesla]

What innuendo? Accusing the Kerchers of being interested in money only in their pursuit of the defendants comes to mind off hand, Supernaut shared that sentiment a few times.

I have no problem taking SuperNaught to task and I have multiple times.

However, I'm curious Briars, if the Kerchers aren't interested in money, why do they have an Italian attorney?

 

[Bill Williams]

Did I direct my comment about the Kerchers to you or Bill directly, no, you suggested that negative comments against them were only innuendo and wanted proof. Are you and Bill moderators always present here? We all have a responsibility to speak up against the unspeakable, if you or someone happen to do it first I don't have to. The times I spoke up no one had , so I don't get your point. Bill did say the Kerchers get a pass and I agree, regardless if you think the defendants are innocent.

So, I repeat, have you ever spoken up against the ad hominems leveled at FOA supporters on any of the PMF boards? If you can provide one example, I will withdraw the innuendo my question suggests.

 

[Grinder]

As for negative comments about Toto, My attitude toward him is that he is an unfortunate stooge for the Perugian authorities. He's a homeless guy who probably is a bit of a loon. I feel sorry for Toto, but that doesn't mean I think he's credible or reliable.
There is nothing wrong with mocking the fact that Toto is being used as a witness. I mock the fact that he can't tell the difference between October 31 and November 1. I mock the fact that he's been a prosecution witness in 3 murder trials. I mock the fact that he only came forward after a year.

You do know he is no longer with us.

 

[Grinder]

Briars something is confusing about your Kercher position. If one of your idols, Ergon, can maintain he is the Messiah and he knew Mignini in a past life,and it is not allowed to mock him for that, why can't someone have the opinion that John K is in it for the money.

I would posit the latter is far more likely than the former.

I don't remember if I was one that wrote condemnations of SN's anti-Semite rants but I certainly supported those that did.

I'm sure in the long history of murders in some cases the victim's family did try to profit. It could be that JK is trying to do so. I have no idea or opinion about that, but if it were true that would be wrong. Don't you agree?

In the thousands of posts here there have been very few that expressed anything against the Kerchers. On the other hand the PGP sites have rarely had 10 posts go by without an attack on anyone remotely PI. Groupie^tm anyone. Lady Preston.
Melloxes. The mall fur salesman. Etc. Etc.

 

[Briars]

Briars something is confusing about your Kercher position. If one of your idols, Ergon, can maintain he is the Messiah and he knew Mignini in a past life,and it is not allowed to mock him for that, why can't someone have the opinion that John K is in it for the money.

I would posit the latter is far more likely than the former.

I don't remember if I was one that wrote condemnations of SN's anti-Semite rants but I certainly supported those that did.

I'm sure in the long history of murders in some cases the victim's family did try to profit. It could be that JK is trying to do so. I have no idea or opinion about that, but if it were true that would be wrong. Don't you agree?

In the thousands of posts here there have been very few that expressed anything against the Kerchers. On the other hand the PGP sites have rarely had 10 posts go by without an attack on anyone remotely PI. Groupie^tm anyone. Lady Preston.
Melloxes. The mall fur salesman. Etc. Etc.

This is just depressing to be having a conversation about tit for tat involving Meredith's family I've got nothing more to say for fear the debate will continue.

 

[Dan O.]

Who is it that opened the discussion about the Kerchers?

What is your point Mary many religions believe in past lives many people believe there is an order to life's events. John Kercher believed his daughter sent white feathers. If you do not like that side of Ergon don't read it, it doesn't interfere with his factual reporting .You have absolutely no business mocking it, Bill should be delivering this sermon but must be wearing a different hat on line.

Know him personally no nor do I need to. I speak up when the Kercher's are bashed here as well. I was offended with the comments towards Toto. There is something wrong about mocking someone's faith , race or position in life. It seemed obvious to me that Ergon was someone you wanted to discredit, which translates that the message , not the spiritual one, was somehow threatening.

What innuendo? Accusing the Kerchers of being interested in money only in their pursuit of the defendants comes to mind off hand, Supernaut shared that sentiment a few times.

This is just depressing to be having a conversation about tit for tat involving Meredith's family I've got nothing more to say for fear the debate will continue.

Don't open the barn door if you don't intend to let the flies out.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Hey Bill, way the call it, I wouldn't have believed it possible.

 

[Grinder]

Know him personally no nor do I need to. I speak up when the Kercher's are bashed here as well. I was offended with the comments towards Toto. There is something wrong about mocking someone's faith , race or position in life. It seemed obvious to me that Ergon was someone you wanted to discredit, which translates that the message , not the spiritual one, was somehow threatening.

This is how the discussion started as Dan pointed out...by you. Why don't you point the last time before this the subject of the Kercher's involvement came up here?

It is much more likely that JK had something to do with the tab coverage of this case than Ergon has broken any "news" on this case. Go back and read how the coverage changed around day three.

You seem to think that what a person's character is, makes no difference in their credibility. Homeless is only a descriptive term, which in this case describes why he was in the plaza. I think the fact that he was high on heroin is more important. Even more important is he told the police he saw nothing shortly after the crime. He got the day wrong except saying the police CSI turned up the next day, duh. Curatolo worked with the police, which is evidenced by his three trials and deferred prosecution on dealing charges.

Ergon "message" is no different than the rest of the PGP. He isn't spiritual. He has all the markings of a con man, which is directly relevant to everything he does and says.

As Bill and I have requested please find examples where the PGP have protested calling the defendants, their family and supporters' names.

So if somebody here believes JK is doing something untoward, I believe they have the right to express that opinion. I personally have no information to substantiate anything on this. I do believe that his background may have affected some of the coverage in England.

 

[acbytesla]

You do know he is no longer with us.

Of course I know Grinder. But Toto testimony is still being considered. I probably wouldn't have brought Toto up if Briars hadn't written that he was offended by people mocking the homeless junkie.

My point was that Toto is a tragic character. His personal weakness left him homeless and at the mercy of how the police and others treated him.

I doubt that Toto was stupid, just at the mercy of his addiction.

 

[Bill Williams]

Hey Bill, way the call it, I wouldn't have believed it possible.

It kind'a makes you want to listen to me on other matters, doesn't it!!!!

 

[RandyN]

As it turns out, we agree completely on this topic. In fact, I figure that we agree on most topics. We should probably agree to disagree on the few we can't seem to meet in the middle on and realize we have been on the same side all along.

I knew about the self proclaimed God for quite some time. But it was your article on Ground Report that reminded me just how crazy this case has actually become...that article is linked in this thread and is a must read for those in doubt about what this case has been about all along. Nice job.

I am not picking out Nasser for any special study...rather that odd people and crazy unfounded speculation have been leading this case all along. What amazes me is that the crazy story was ever able to gain traction and then remain alive in various forms and with different motivations for going on 6 years now.

Italy and representative Mignini have caused two innocent people incalculable pain and suffering. They have also needlessly caused financial disaster for the two and for their families. And last but certainly not least Italy and Mignini have caused the Kerchers additional years of torture on top of the disastrous pain they already suffered when Rudy Guede robbed, raped and murdered their daughter.

Bruce I agree that the unjustly accused in this and a few other cases that I have studied are lucky to have your site to help amplify their voices that are often drowned out in the short attention span of the modern person.

The topics we don't agree on are not all that important and I don't know that we disagree in general on them anyway...I actually miss Franks... on the spot... take on things. I still think he was foolish for soiling in his food dishes...and were it not plural ....dishes, then I would be less harsh. None the less I wish he would write about the Italian take on this continuing saga...or at least report why he has gone dead silent. But if he doesn't no biggie.

In these cases we have always been on the same side...The side were the truth and facts prove that wrongful convictions still happen at an alarming rate.

 

[RandyN]

I agree with you on both Ergon and Frank. I have seen people focus on the fact that Ergon exchanged e-mails with Migi rather than the content of the e-mail quoted by Ergon. For those who lost it in the trees, here it is....



This is interesting. First, Frank is given the status as being a member of the press (as that is what he is being charged with), and second, Mignini is the injured party here showing his involvement in the prosecution. IIRC, the thing that got Frank in trouble was saying something about how Mignini relies on the testimony of drug dealers. Curatolo comes to mind immediately. This tells me how restricted the press is in Italy, being subject to a lawsuit every time a criticism of a judge is made. I would hope other members of the press are watching the outcome of this carefully.

Interesting that they choose Nov 6th to bring Frank in.

So is Mignini claiming he was personally or professionally (oxymoron alert) harmed? If this is an actual case scheduled in the books then what is CPJ waiting for to start its protests of this clear attack on a so called free press? BTW...Mignini not only relies on drug dealers ...he calls them super-witnesses. I wish we could see who signed Totos arrest warrant when he was finally tossed into jail. Dollars to donuts his name begins with M and ends with igini.

 

[RandyN]

As I understand it, this quote from Perugia Shock appears in the complaint:



And Mignini claims that, by writing this, Frank compared Mignini himself to tramps and pushers. Mignini also names these "persons informed of the facts" as his supporters in the lawsuit: Monica Napoleoni, Francesco Maresca, Francesca Bene (Giornale dell'Umbria) and Erica Pontini (Nazione dell'Umbria).

It doesn't strike me as a positive thing for Frank, to have these other journalists on Mignini's side. They may claim not to be of the opinion that the press is restricted.

Well I hope Franks lawyer cross-examines Napoleoni about her recent corruptions involving tampering with evidence and how that characterizes her and her conspirator in this case...one DOKTOR Mignini...birds of a feather....