Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Briars]

At a stretch, possibly. But it can't be used as the basis of a murder case in the absence of genuine evidence. It's because you have no genuine evidence, and no coherent narrative of the crime implicating the students, that you have to focus on innuendo like this.

That has already been shared reread to refresh your memory

 

[Bill Williams]

Ok, I've searched here, PMF, and True justice and can not find anything, who is this 'Ergon' and where can I read about whatever it is he has said?

Exactly. There's a webmaster out there who claims a couple of things - not only that he's The Messiah but that he's taken possession of 112 transcripts which, according to Briars, show something suspicious about Raffaele's behaviour/speech.

As Grinder has pointed out, these phone calls to 112 have been known about for 5 years. Perhaps a good place to check about them is the Massei report, because Judge Massei (wrongly in my opinion) sees in them the development of a "counter story" that Raffaele is developing on the fly to mislead police. Massei wrote that report in 2010.

This whole "brag" on the part of Ergon, and publicized here in PR fashion by Briars, is all part and parcel of a huge non-event - also on the coat-tails of an e-mail Ergon received from Dr. Mignini detailing the prosecution of Frank Sfarzo coming up in November. I seriously doubt Dr. Mignini knows or cares, really, who Ergon is.

I think Shakespeare wrote a play about this.

 

[Briars]

Both calls are recorded and available on PMF.net in Italian and English. I'm not aware or any other call , In the first recorded call Sollecito gives the address for the first time describes the scene and says there was no theft.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Exactly. There's a webmaster out there who claims a couple of things - not only that he's The Messiah but that he's taken possession of 122 transcripts which, according to Briars, show something suspicious about Raffaele's behaviour/speech.

As Grinder has pointed out, these phones calls to 211 have been known about for 5 years. Perhaps a good place to check about them is the Massei report, because Judge Massei (wrongly in my opinion) sees in them the development of a "counter story" that Raffaele is developing on the fly to mislead police. Massei wrote that report in 2010.

This whole "brag" on the part of Ergon, and publicized here in PR fashion by Briars, is all part and parcel of a huge non-event - also on the coat-tails of an e-mail Ergon received from Dr. Mignini detailing the prosecution of Frank Sfarzo coming up in November. I seriously doubt Dr. Mignini knows or cares, really, who Ergon is.

I think Shakespeare wrote a play about this.

Thank you Bill, now I can enjoy that Rider game tomorrow......

 

[Bill Williams]

Thank you Bill, now I can enjoy that Rider game tomorrow......

Blue and gold will take them down. You read it here first!

 

[Bill Williams]

Both calls are recorded and available on PMF.net in Italian and English. I'm not aware or any other call , In the first recorded call Sollecito gives the address for the first time describes the scene and says there was no theft.

Briars - do you feel comfortable describing your own role at PMF.NET? I've asked others, but do you have an opinion of who the founder of PMF is? Michael or Peggy?

Apologies if I've asked this before. It's just that if you are doing a one-person PR campaign to point out PMF.NET as some sort of authority here, people might have a right to know your own connection.

If you don't feel comfortable explaining, no big deal.

 

[davefoc]

I am sticking to the point. ...

I was impressed with this. It is a description of exactly the kind of thought experiment that needs to be used to investigate the possibility that confirmation bias is irrationally driving one's thought process.

Confirmation bias, is very difficult to detect in one's self. It is self masking by its very nature and yet it is a prominent part of the human thought process. I suspect without it we would all just go nuts as we bounced between belief extremes. But there are times when it is so strong that it causes us to sustain a belief in the face of overwhelming evidence that we are wrong. I think, one of the key features that defines a skeptical personality is a willingness to do thought experiments like the one Bill Williams describes in his post on our own opinions.

Although, maybe my own confirmation biases have led me to have an excessively positive view of Bill Williams post since his views on the MK murder are similar to mine. Completely eliminating the possibility that confirmation biases are controlling one's views seems to never quite be possible for humans.

 

[acbytesla]

It is the sum of the events and evidence that convinces. The calls were not chaotic there was a slow casual account with too much information given, Communication between the accused then hangup. Hey what are you doing? click. Bias may prevent you from being curious , at least I'm honest about mine.

Actually, its not. It is only convincing if you come to the table looking for guilt. If you add a bunch of zeros together it still equals zero. NONE of these events are the least bit incriminating and adding them together does not make them any more incriminating unless you are determined that they add up to the result you are seeking.

The only conclusion you really can make is that the scene was confusing to all involved.

 

[acbytesla]

Stick to just one point, the call is made by Sollecito he is calm listen to his tone there is no chaos. What would have caused him to not answer and need to ask Amanda what she is doing just prior to his hangup? Is a 911 call at the scene of a murder of interest to cops, I would say 100% of the time. Therefore the call, the contents , his tone and Amanda's verbal sounds and possible interference are of interest. No investigation in any murder would brush of a piece of evidence like that.

But of course Raffaele did not know that there was a murder. I wouldn't use the term chaotic, instead I would describe it as confusing and maybe a little scary. My guess is that it began to grow more chaotic after Filomena and the postale police arrived.

 

[Grinder]

Police: "Then listen, practically they entered ... they broke a glass ... and how do you know that they entered?"
RS: "There are signs. There are also blood stains in the bathroom."
Police: "So they entered. .. because they are broken ... have they cut themselves breaking the glass?
RS: "Ehhh ... What are you doing?"
Police: "Hello?"
[hangs up the phone]

PIP #1 It doesn't matter, there is no evidence of murder anyway
PIP #2 You can't hang up a mobile you can only end call
PIP #3 Once upon a time PGP exaggerated blood stains into lots of blood
PIP #4 RS hung up, surprised/shocked because AK had started calling her mother in the middle of RS conversation with police
PIP #5 You should be looking at the police's suspicious behaviour
PIP #6 How would not going to Gubbio but being at the cottage help control the discovery?

"Ehhh . . . What are you doing?"

1. Well it would be better for the PGP to have actual evidence linking the kids to Rudy and the murder. It is an embarrassment that they used the witnesses and faulty forensics they did.

2. Mobile phones are disconnected in ways that land lines don't. Calls just drop or an inadvertent touch will close out the call. Hanging up could give the impression that someone put the phone on the hook.

3. Ergon's CURRENT translation exaggerates it. In fact his translation seems to be taken from the early one.

4. Yes that's what the prosecution/court contended but thinking she was moving the lamp or vacuuming the floor with the Hoover DNA Dial-O-Matic does seem more suspicious. Maybe his sister said not to touch anything and she was touching something or maybe he thought she was calling 112 and thought that was wrong.

And what is the NEW break through from Ergon's expose?

 

[Briars]

Briars - do you feel comfortable describing your own role at PMF.NET? I've asked others, but do you have an opinion of who the founder of PMF is? Michael or Peggy?

Apologies if I've asked this before. It's just that if you are doing a one-person PR campaign to point out PMF.NET as some sort of authority here, people might have a right to know your own connection.

If you don't feel comfortable explaining, no big deal.

You have asked that who is the founder of PMF many times, Do I know or care no, nor do I have the faintest clue why its so important to you. My guess is it's a silly distraction that you amuse yourself with. Very childish really.

 

[Welshman]

What Amanda and Raffaele did or did not do in the cottage prior to the discovery of Meredith's have been used by the prosecution and PGP as signs that Amanda and Raffaele were guilty. This is an issue I raised in the IIP forum which was if Amanda and Raffaele were guilty why did they return to the cottage the next morning and report suspicous findings to the police? Lets assume Amanda and Raffaele had killed Meredith. They are going to be in a state of extreme panic and agitation and are terrified they are going to be caught. If they go to the cottage the next morning and call the police, would they not worry that would appear tense and nervous to the the police? Would Amanda and Raffaele not worry they will slip up and say the wrong things to the police which is precisely what Amanda and Raffaele have been accused of doing eg saying nothing had been stolen, what Raffaele said in his phone call. Would Amanda and Raffaele not want to avoid contact with the police if they had killed someone just the previous evening? Amanda and Raffaele were supposed to have killed Meredith together. Is it credible that both of them would agree to return to the cottage especially as they had only been dating six days?

 

[davefoc]

Ok, I've searched here, PMF, and True justice and can not find anything, who is this 'Ergon' and where can I read about whatever it is he has said?

As a semi lurker to this thread, acronyms and comments are sometimes just too esoteric for me to get. I was just letting the Ergon stuff float by until you asked this question. I thought that SH was on the in and if even he didn't know about Ergon my ignorance on the issue might not be unique as I had guessed.

Anyway, I know the question has been answered but I found this about Ergon on-line:
http://groundreport.com/is-prosecut...eaking-information-to-amanda-knox-hate-sites/

 

[Bill Williams]

You have asked that who is the founder of PMF many times, Do I know or care no, nor do I have the faintest clue why its so important to you. My guess is it's a silly distraction that you amuse yourself with. Very childish really.

The one and only PMF existed before March 2011. That one and only PMF disappeared for a week after one of the webmasters **** out the other one. A week later two PMF's appeared....

It's actually not really a big deal - I'll leave it to others to discern "childishness". I regard it as a curiosity - and it seems connected to this business of 112 transcripts and e-mails from Dr. Mignini in that now one of the websites seems to have claimed a "coup" not over Bruce Fisher or even Judge Massei (who talked about all this in 2010).....

...... but against "the other" PMF. Sherlock said he's searched and can't find ANY reference to it anywhere, except for what Bruce Fisher, you and I seem to be talking about.

I'd suggest to you that your comment is revealing...

Why do you think Sollecito instead of answering the cop says hey what are you doing? to Amanda just before the hang up in the first call. Why do you think he mentions the "closed" door in an ominous way three times in two calls? He didn't call Meredith once back at the cottage , even though he saw her purse. Strange calls with Amanda listening, joining in and possibly interrupting the first call. You're not going to honestly look at the calls in a critical manner , no problem no one really expects you to. They remain an interesting and important account. Thanks again man from Atlan!

You seem to be taking sides! What, exactly, are we thanking Ergon for?

 

[Briars]

The one and only PMF existed before March 2011. That one and only PMF disappeared for a week after one of the webmasters **** out the other one. A week later two PMF's appeared....

It's actually not really a big deal - I'll leave it to others to discern "childishness". I regard it as a curiosity - and it seems connected to this business of 112 transcripts and e-mails from Dr. Mignini in that now one of the websites seems to have claimed a "coup" not over Bruce Fisher or even Judge Massei (who talked about all this in 2010).....

...... but against "the other" PMF. Sherlock said he's searched and can't find ANY reference to it anywhere, except for what Bruce Fisher, you and I seem to be talking about.

I'd suggest to you that your comment is revealing...



You seem to be taking sides! What, exactly, are we thanking Ergon for?

Take sides what are you talking about? I'm not on you side and don't pretend to be. The two PMF sites co exist and readers read both and manage to share important news. The sites are informative not social clubs.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

You seem to be taking sides! What, exactly, are we thanking Ergon for?

Heh. It was damp and foggy this morning, but now the sun is out. Maybe I should thank Ergon.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Take sides what are you talking about? I'm not on you side and don't pretend to be. The two PMF sites co exist and readers read both and manage to share important news. The sites are informative not social clubs.

Proof of their peaceful co-existence lies in the fact that Ergon hasn't summoned an ice storm to crush whatever server hosts pmf.org.

 

[Bill Williams]

Take sides what are you talking about? I'm not on you side and don't pretend to be. The two PMF sites co exist and readers read both and manage to share important news. The sites are informative not social clubs.

...... and both "founders" call each other liars, and one said the other was on the payroll of Gogerty-Marriott, which was the PR firm managing exposure to the media for the Knox/Mellas's.

If you can find any retractions from these accusations I'd like to see them.

You are thanking "The Man from Atlan" for bringing to our attention things known since at least 2010 when Massei wrote his motivations report. Whereas people report here that they can't even find what you and I are talking about, you are claiming that there is some sort of "stop the presses" from this Man from Atlan who you thank for bringing it to our attention.

And there is NO coverage of this at the other site. At least that anyone can find.

I mean, does "Michael" remain banned at the .ORG site? Is Peggy free to post at the .NET site. I suppose she can post on Tuesdays with the other FOAs, given that she's been accused of being on the FOA payroll.

It is my view that Ergon is doing what he's doing presently, and you are acting as a free PR firm for it, for an issue that has no meaning to anyone - except perhaps for the project of PMF..... and establishing which one is the legitimate one who knows the latest about the case (e-mail from Dr. Mignini, etc.) and who cares the most for Meredith; who, by the way, is the first victim here.

The sites are informative? How? And my bet is that you will have a go at explaining that without stepping on what they are fighting about.... who the founder is.

It's actually not a big deal.

 

[Briars]

Proof of their peaceful co-existence lies in the fact that Ergon hasn't summoned an ice storm to crush whatever server hosts pmf.org.

Both sites are eager for the translation of the SC Monday. I believe that is the work of .org. Hard to imagine people unlikely to ever meet to welcome news from either site is it? Entertain yourself nonsense along with Bill.

 

[Antony]

That has already been shared reread to refresh your memory

I don't need to refresh my memory - the prosecution "evidence" is very well-discussed and is all bogus. On the other hand, the prosecution narrative of the crime has never even been made clear.