Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[A'isha]

Again: "compulsion" is a matter of degree (as in, the inverse, "degrees of freedom"). The more options available to parents of young children and the more options available to students, the less compulsion.

Not as far as the students themselves are concerned. The students are neither cognizant of all that nonsense about Weber's definition of government as "the largest dealer in interpersonal violence in that locality" nor do they care. All they know is that their parents make them get up and go to school in the morning and do their homework at night and scold them if they bring back a poor report card, whether they attend public school or private school.

What makes a kid forced to go to Catholic school by her parents more resistant to the "de-motivational effects of compulsion" than a kid who is forced to go to public school by her parents?

 

[RandFan]

What makes a kid forced to go to Catholic school by her parents more resistant to the "de-motivational effects of compulsion" than a kid who is forced to go to public school by her parents?

We have asked and asked that question and it is ignored and ignored.

When I was a child I wasn't worried that the police were going to arrest me, throw me into prison, rape me and infect me with aids. It's such nonsense that it ought to seriously shame anyone who makes the claim. My mother and father made me go to school. My father would have preferred that I stay home and muck chicken and rabbit ****. Thank goodness the state demanded that I go to school.

 

[Border Reiver]

I could search through this thread and demonstrate that we've discussed this several times already, but I'll spare myself the time and answer straight (again). This thread might have some new readers, after all.
Again: "compulsion" is a matter of degree (as in, the inverse, "degrees of freedom"). The more options available to parents of young children and the more options available to students, the less compulsion.

Actually, you've never answered to anyone's satisfaction.

You repeatedly assert that there are degrees of compulsion, and your mantra that the more options a available to the parents, the better it is for the children, but fail to address the reality that the options you are touting already exist.

Your assertion also fails to address what compulsion is, when applied to education. Compulsion, as used by Einstein was the forcible molding of thinking patterns through various pedagogical techniques (ex. "Write an essay on why America is great."). Compulsion was not being directed at the idea of sending children to school.

We addressed this issue several times earlier in this thread. Again, I'll spare myself the trouble of going back and finding instances and just answer straight.
The government of __A__ (locality) is the largest dealer in interpersonal violence in that locality (definition, after Weber).

A more accurate description of a government is a body authorized to regulate the activity of the group.

A law is a threat by a government to kidnap (arrest) assault (subdue) and to forcibly infect with HIV (imprison) someone, under some specified circumstances (yes, even litter laws are backed ultimately by the threat of State violence).

If you are ignorant enough of the rights of others, then yes, force may be exerted on you to compel adherence to group norms. If you refuse to do so past the point of reason, then you may find your freedoms even more restricted.

The system of markets (title and contract law) combines local knowledge with the incentive to use resources in socially beneficial ways. In general, when two parties exchange goods and/or services, both benefit (or why would they have traded?).

problems arise when applying a market based model to education. the prime beneficiary - the student - is very often legally incapable of entering into contracts. The persons who can enter into contracts have to do what they think is in the student's best interests and then compel the student to jndergo the instruction that the parent feels is appropriate with little to no recourse if the student feels that the terms of any contract are not being fulfilled.

Centralized control of commercial activity must destroy information, in the same way that aggregate statistics destroy some information contained in raw data. From raw data you can compute the mean. You cannot derive the raw data from the mean.

Education, due to the large amounts of input that the public system receives and the choices available outside the system is more of a regulated service, rather than controlled. If education was a controlled industry, the options for private, parochial and home schooling would simply not exist.

Markets in education services allow parents to use their local knowledge of their own children's interests and abilities to match children to curricula and methods of instruction.

Not particularly. Looking at what is available at several private school sites, it would appear that most mirror the public school curricula fairly closely, generally giving some additional language or religious classes for flavor.

 

[RandFan]

Across the US, parochial and independent schools outperform the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's schools (e.g., Coleman).

Link please?

Internationally, parochial and independent schools outperform schools operated by government employees (Lockheed and Jiminez, Angrist, et. al.).

Link please?

 

[RandFan]

Privatization Kills Education: Ask Chicago Parents Why

Charter schools get the best of the best students and weed out problem students that public schools cannot. Charter schools are self selected (parents who give a damn take advantage of charter schools).

I'm for more options but the notion that public schools are worse than private schools is intellectually dishonest.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

The education of children is vital to our future. The education of children is vital to children.

Yet another recycled argument. Again, try "the education nutrition of children is vital to our future. The education nutrition of children is vital to children." Try "the education clothing of children is vital to our future. The education clothing of children is vital to children."

Food is vital. Are we starving because the State does not operate farms, ranches, cereal mills, slaughter houses, grocery stores, and restaurants? Without clothes, people in many US States would have to remain indoors up to six months a year, or die of hypothermia. Are we naked because the State does not operate textile mills and clothing stores?

NOT("good to have"="good for the State to produce").

Comparing the education of children to manufacturing of kitchen utensils or lawn care is absurd. You might as well compare national defense to lawn care.

Try "Comparing the education nutrition of children to manufacturing of kitchen utensils or lawn care is absurd. You might as well compare national defense to lawn care." Try "Comparing the education clothing of children to manufacturing of kitchen utensils or lawn care is absurd. You might as well compare national defense to lawn care."

Randfan has seen the discussion of the place that defense occupies in government policy. Randfan participated in that discussion. I can only speculate what prompts this repetition of the discussion. National defense systematically differs from the education industry, the lawn care industry, and the kitchen utensil industry.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Yet another recycled argument. Again, try "the education nutrition of children is vital to our future. The education nutrition of children is vital to children." Try "the education clothing of children is vital to our future. The education clothing of children is vital to children."

Food is vital. Are we starving because the State does not operate farms, ranches, cereal mills, slaughter houses, grocery stores, and restaurants? Without clothes, people in many US States would have to remain indoors up to six months a year, or die of hypothermia. Are we naked because the State does not operate textile mills and clothing stores?

NOT("good to have"="good for the State to produce").Try "Comparing the education nutrition of children to manufacturing of kitchen utensils or lawn care is absurd. You might as well compare national defense to lawn care." Try "Comparing the education clothing of children to manufacturing of kitchen utensils or lawn care is absurd. You might as well compare national defense to lawn care."

Randfan has seen the discussion of the place that defense occupies in government policy. Randfan participated in that discussion. I can only speculate what prompts this repetition of the discussion. National defense systematically differs from the education industry, the lawn care industry, and the kitchen utensil industry.

Lovely argument, except it's faulty as anything
How much state subsidy do farms actually get?
Are there no laws ensuring food at all?
While the government does not tell every farmer what to grow, it does influence them to a degree.
There are also programs to ensure that those unable to buy food themselves are able to get this essential thing for themselves and their children.
The same applies to education.
And as in education, parents have every choice. They can homeschool, they can sent to private schools of their personal liking, they can decide to go to public schools if they lack the time/money for the other two (or if they just consider them good enough). Heck, if anyone truly disagrees with what is taught in one country, it's possible to leave that country and go somewhere else.

The laws you so horribly misrepresent as massive threats of violence are there because of a horrible fact you keep ignoring though. There are parents out there that do NOT want the best for their children. Parents who abuse, ignore or otherwise mistreat their children. Left to their own devices such parents would not school their children at all (and in your free market system would just sell them). Thankfully society has chosen to try force such parents to give their children a chance in life. Of course this system is not perfect, but its far better than the 'ignore it' system you advocate.
Do try to remember that the only qualification you need to become a parent is 'able to have sex'.

 

[Niche Geek]

2. We have addressed this objection previously, also. Compulsory education (attendance, actually) statutes apply to students (truancy) and to parents (educational neglect). Parents who refuse to enforce the State's compulsory attendance statutes can face educational neglect charges. The consequences escalate from fines through loss of custody to prison for contempt of court (with the threat of prison rape and AIDS). Teens who chronically miss school despite their parents' instruction (e.g., teens who walk off the grounds and go to the beach) can face confinement in the juvenile detention facility.

While you are correct that this objection has been addressed before, your reply does not seem to take the previous responses nor the current question into account. You have not been asked to describe your ideological presuppositions. You have been asked to provide evidence to support them. The statutes of your home state do no seem to agree with you. The figures for infection rates do not agree with you (presuming that prison is a possibility, a fact not in evidence). Where are these victims of the state? Can you document them?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

While you are correct that this objection has been addressed before, your reply does not seem to take the previous responses nor the current question into account. You have not been asked to describe your ideological presuppositions. You have been asked to provide evidence to support them. The statutes of your home state do no seem to agree with you. The figures for infection rates do not agree with you (presuming that prison is a possibility, a fact not in evidence). Where are these victims of the state? Can you document them?

Most students and all taxpayers (insiders are net tax recipients) are victims of the State-monopoly school system.

 

[Niche Geek]

Most students and all taxpayers (insiders are net tax recipients) are victims of the State-monopoly school system.

That appears to be a restatement of one of your conclusions. I'm asking for the evidence to support your premises

 

[RandFan]

...nutrition of children is vital to our future.

So we provide SNAP (food stamps) to children and we have lunch program for the poor. Good example. We also have a agriculture department.

Randfan...

Try civility. Turning the military or the education of children over to the private sector would be dumb for the many, many reasons that many of us have stated. Children are not widgets. They are the future of this nation.

 

[RandFan]

1. Thanks for this demonstration of the operational definition of "civility", according to the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's defenders. Did anyone notice that I made no reference to participants in this discussion in the post that Randfan calls "lying" and "nonsense"? So much for "address the argument" and "be civil and polite".
"Nonsense" yourself,

2. We have addressed this objection previously, also. Compulsory education (attendance, actually) statutes apply to students (truancy) and to parents (educational neglect). Parents who refuse to enforce the State's compulsory attendance statutes can face educational neglect charges. The consequences escalate from fines through loss of custody to prison for contempt of court (with the threat of prison rape and AIDS). Teens who chronically miss school despite their parents' instruction (e.g., teens who walk off the grounds and go to the beach) can face confinement in the juvenile detention facility.

Complete dodge. How many children are kidnapped, rapped and infected with aids earch year? How many parents? You've no mechanism for the states interpersonal violence to negatively affect children. Childen don't know and the compulsion to go to school is the same whether it is private or public.

 

[Locknar]

Folks (especially RandFan and Malcolm Kirkpatrick) ...please keep rule 0, rule 11, rule 12 in mind while posting (ie. keep your posts civil/polite, on topic, and address the argument).

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Complete dodge. How many children are kidnapped, rapped and infected with aids earch year? How many parents? You've no mechanism for the states interpersonal violence to negatively affect children. Childen don't know and the compulsion to go to school is the same whether it is private or public.

1. Again, the law is the threat.
2. Again, compulsion is NOT "the same" when parents have options. "Bread and water" is NOT the same diet as a buffet line,

 

[A'isha]

1. Again, the law is the threat.

A threat which has little bearing on the motivation of children that attend school.

2. Again, compulsion is NOT "the same" when parents have options. "Bread and water" is NOT the same diet as a buffet line,

It's not "bread and water vs. a buffet line".

It's "making a kid eat her vegetables when she doesn't want to is the same from her point of view regardless of whether her parents have a choice of broccoli or brussels sprouts to bring back for her from the buffet line".

 

[RandFan]

To what does "this" refer? Markets, generally? Didn't Randfan claim, at one point in this discussion, to endorse capitalism?

Children are not widgets. That's the fatal flaw to your argument. I've pointed out time and again that poor people often purchase cheap products that actually cost more in the long run. You've not explained how the market for education would not be the same as it is for can openers. Expensive junk for poor people and quality and value for the rich.

 

[RandFan]

1. Again, the law is the threat.
2. Again, compulsion is NOT "the same" when parents have options. "Bread and water" is NOT the same diet as a buffet line,

1. Demonstrate that children fear being kidnapped, raped and infected with aids (those are YOUR words not mine).
2. Demonstrate that parents are fearful of being kidnapped, raped and infected with aids.

 

[A'isha]

9. No. The laws are there because, left to themselves, parents did not subject their children to the religious instruction that the authorities of the theocratic colonies of Massachusetts Bay, Providence, Concord, etc. wanted. The commercial colonies did not, initially, compel attendance at school. Later, when waves of Catholic immigrants provoked an allergic reaction in the relatively wealthier Protestant majority, public-sector entrepreneurs like Horace Mann talked panicked legislators into creating their own pet bureaucratic empires.

This continues to remain false no matter how often you repeat it.

Colleges of Education graduate people who can barely add fractions.

[Citation Needed]

 

[Border Reiver]

Can anyone explain why most private schools (at least here in Canada) cost more per student per year than what the provinces spend per student per year?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

The laws you so horribly misrepresent as massive threats of violence are there because of a horrible fact you keep ignoring though. There are parents out there that do NOT want the best for their children. Parents who abuse, ignore or otherwise mistreat their children. Left to their own devices such parents would not school their children at all (and in your free market system would just sell them). Thankfully society has chosen to try force such parents to give their children a chance in life. Of course this system is not perfect, but its far better than the 'ignore it' system you advocate.

No. The laws are there because, left to themselves, parents did not subject their children to the religious instruction that the authorities of the theocratic colonies of Massachusetts Bay, Providence, Concord, etc. wanted. The commercial colonies did not, initially, compel attendance at school. Later, when waves of Catholic immigrants provoked an allergic reaction in the relatively wealthier Protestant majority, public-sector entrepreneurs like Horace Mann talked panicked legislators into creating their own pet bureaucratic empires.

This continues to remain false no matter how often you repeat it.

No participant in this discussion was around in 1644, 1820, 1837, or 1844. I recommend Joel Spring The American School, Sol Cohen, American Education, A Documentary History, and Benjamin Wist's history of education in Hawaii.