Is Amway A Scam?

[Joecool]

I don't think they are a myth but they are reserved for those that make the most from amway. Those who started the business (e.g. those who own the corp) and those who have large side businesses selling "tools" into the organizations (Yeager, Dornan etc).

I agree that the Amway owners could afford such trappings. It might even be possible for a tenured kingpin to own some big tickets items, possibly paid for in cash. But certainly not the rank and file diamonds that are portrayed as being financially free with all of their toys paid for in cash.

WWDB has at least two (2) diamonds that I know of who lost their homes to foreclosure and one triple diamond who was in bankruptcy proceedings recently.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I agree that the Amway owners could afford such trappings. It might even be possible for a tenured kingpin to own some big tickets items, possibly paid for in cash. But certainly not the rank and file diamonds that are portrayed as being financially free with all of their toys paid for in cash.

WWDB has at least two (2) diamonds that I know of who lost their homes to foreclosure and one triple diamond who was in bankruptcy proceedings recently.

I have no doubt that some of them make a lot less money than portrayed.

Also some of them probably realized that even when your income is high you can still live beyond your means. Especially if you are trying to keep up appearances for the troops.

The funny thing is I hang out with fairly well off people quite often and none of them are from amway. Microsoft people, investment bankers, real estate investors, entreprenuers of various types but no amway people hanging at the country club. I wonder why that is...

 

[Joecool]

I have no doubt that some of them make a lot less money than portrayed.

Also some of them probably realized that even when your income is high you can still live beyond your means. Especially if you are trying to keep up appearances for the troops.

The funny thing is I hang out with fairly well off people quite often and none of them are from amway. Microsoft people, investment bankers, real estate investors, entreprenuers of various types but no amway people hanging at the country club. I wonder why that is...

It is my informed guess that many, possibly most diamonds are playing a game of keeping up with the Joneses. They need to portray a jetset lifestyle in order to recruit new rubes into the system but at the same time, they lifestyle they portray cannot be sustained by diamond income (according to Amway, $147,000 average), even if that diamond income is augmented by money from functions and other tools.

The diamonds can't hang out at the country clubs because most of them don't have the time as they need to be out recruiting new IBOs and possibly because they don't have the income to join a country club.

The average $147,000 income (gross) minus business expenses is at best, a middle class lifestyle and most of that $147,000 comes in the form of an annual bonus, thus a diamond's monthly income might be quite small.

 

[NewtonTrino]

It is my informed guess that many, possibly most diamonds are playing a game of keeping up with the Joneses. They need to portray a jetset lifestyle in order to recruit new rubes into the system but at the same time, they lifestyle they portray cannot be sustained by diamond income (according to Amway, $147,000 average), even if that diamond income is augmented by money from functions and other tools.

The diamonds can't hang out at the country clubs because most of them don't have the time as they need to be out recruiting new IBOs and possibly because they don't have the income to join a country club.

I they have a good tools business I would expect them to make enough to join. I think it's more the time issue. I don't hear diamonds talk about playing golf a lot generally..

The average $147,000 income (gross) minus business expenses is at best, a middle class lifestyle and most of that $147,000 comes in the form of an annual bonus, thus a diamond's monthly income might be quite small.

Yeah, most people who belong to the club make a lot more than $150k.

For the record I don't belong, my biz partner does and I tag along with him on occasion.

 

[Joecool]

I guess the bottom line is that retired Amway people are like flying saucers and bigfoot. Plenty of stories and anecdotes but no actualy proof that they exist.

 

[Joecool]

Is anyone on this forum a dentist? Look at the claim made by Icerat (IBOFightback). That a dentist can tell when someone uses Amway toothpaste because their teeth looks better. Really? Are these folks that shameless?

http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/a...w-new-ibos-renew/comment-page-1/#comment-7121

ibofightback
Aug 3rd, 2010 at 09:43
Sounds like nothing more than a coincidence to me. I’ve had more than one person tell me their dentist has commented on how much better their teeth are after swapping to glister.

Reply
xs energy rocks
Feb 27th, 2011 at 18:41
I agree, many people that I have asked to try glister have loved it. They tell me stories how their dentist can really see a difference in their teeth.

 

[jadebox]

Is anyone on this forum a dentist? Look at the claim made by Icerat (IBOFightback). That a dentist can tell when someone uses Amway toothpaste because their teeth looks better. Really? Are these folks that shameless?

http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/a...w-new-ibos-renew/comment-page-1/#comment-7121

ibofightback
Aug 3rd, 2010 at 09:43
Sounds like nothing more than a coincidence to me. I’ve had more than one person tell me their dentist has commented on how much better their teeth are after swapping to glister.

Reply
xs energy rocks
Feb 27th, 2011 at 18:41
I agree, many people that I have asked to try glister have loved it. They tell me stories how their dentist can really see a difference in their teeth.

What he says may be true, but that isn't evidence that the toothpaste is better.

Supposedly, people with electric toothbrushes have cleaner teeth. Not because an electric toothbrush is more effectlive, but because people who use them brush longer. Maybe it's the same with people who pay too much for their toothpaste.

It might be like those "Tornado" things and other things that are advertised to increase gas mileage. People put those things on their cars. Then they start thinking about the mileage they are getting. So they driver slower,idel for less time, etc. And, ta da! Suddenly they are getting more miles to the gallon!

-- Roger

 

[kowalskil]

What he says may be true, but that isn't evidence that the toothpaste is better.

Supposedly, people with electric toothbrushes have cleaner teeth. Not because an electric toothbrush is more effectlive, but because people who use them brush longer. Maybe it's the same with people who pay too much for their toothpaste. ...

.
Thank you for the observation. Yes, the cause-and-effect relations are often illusionary.

 

[Joecool]

.
Thank you for the observation. Yes, the cause-and-effect relations are often illusionary.

Some of these folks are Amway zealots. They even use google alerts so they know when someone posts the word "Amway" on the internet. It's like a "bat signal" so they can defend Amway.

Amway is just a lousy MLM opportunity, like most MLMs. Amway is more indisious than some others though, because some of their leaders also scam unsuspecting people into buying useless training, which makes these folks worse off financially. Some end up tens of thousands in debt following the advice that these scam artists deal out.

By the admission of Amway supporters that most people "do nothing" in Amway, and the fact that their own 6-4-2 plan indicates that it would take nearly 100 IBOs "doing something" in order to support a platinum, who might make about $1000 a month should already indicate that the business is not worth the time and effort, especially when selling the products is a big challenge in itself.

 

[Joecool]

It's also the pitch I get when I say I'm uninterested in being a salesperson.

It is said that Amway can make someone annoying:

http://www.unhappyfranchisee.com/will-amway-make-you-annoying/

 

[Joecool]

Originally Posted by icerat
Sure, but don't forget that a retail sale is a sale made to a consumer. There's no reason that can't include the distributor themselves.

http://www.amway.com/en/ResourceCenterDocuments/Visitor/ops-amw-gde-v-en--BusinessReferenceGuide.pdf

2.3. Customer means a non-IBO who is an end user of
products and services offered through or by Amway.

 

[gnome]

About time you found that

 

[Joecool]

About time you found that

Problem is that the FTC did not clearly define the 70% rule so Amway apologists will claim that personal use and selling to downline (exclusively) is permissable under the rule.

However, if that were the case, then it does not prevent inventory loading which is what the rule is supposed to prevent.

In a court case involving an Amway group called "TEAM", it was revealed that less than 4% of Amway products were actually sold to non IBO customers.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0811/050.html

 

[sgrundy]

hey joecool I get your feed from your Amway dream or Scheme blog. Keep up the good workthese kinds of business deals should go the way of the dinasaur there days are numbered

 

[Joecool]

It should be explained that Amway in itself is not the problem. It is the attached tool companies that are a big part of the problem. Amway manufactures and procures the rights to products and ships them to IBO's and customers (if any).

The people involved with the tool companies recruit other IBO's. teach them and sell them cd's, seminars, books, voicemail, etc.

It's a symbiotic relationship. Amway relies on the tool companies to recruit the sales force, to train them, teach them product loyalty, etc.

The tool companies need Amway so they have a viable product. That way they avoid being an illegal pyramid scheme.

 

[catsmate]

Is Amway A Scam?

Yes.

 

[dudalb]

I am not a big "There ought to be a law" guy,but I feel that Amway and other MML schemes should be clasified as a fraud like any other Ponziesque scheme.
Not that that will happen, thought. The MML companies have too much clout.

 

[Zelenius]

Amway is not just a scam, it is by far one of the best examples of how to legally run a very profitable scam company long-term. I believe that many of the current MLM ponzi scam companies out there today were inspired, at least in part by the example of Amway.

Unfortunately, as I've said before in this thread or another thread, the cure may be worse than the disease. I just don't like the idea of passing new laws restricting businesses, especially if they eventually prove to be useless since ponzi schemers are eminently adaptable. Amway itself represents a later stage of evolution of the pyramid/ponzi scheme, since pyramid schemes were already illegal long before Amway was founded. They just cleverly use those over-priced products of theirs and other tactics to disguise this.

 

[icerat]

Yes, it's been incredibly clever, the way they've managed to hide this from governments and authorities all around the world.

All those experts that have studied the way it operates, sometimes for years, and they just can't see what you see ....

Do you subscribe to the corruption theory? That they're bribing everyone?

 

[Joecool]

Amway is not just a scam, it is by far one of the best examples of how to legally run a very profitable scam company long-term. I believe that many of the current MLM ponzi scam companies out there today were inspired, at least in part by the example of Amway.

Unfortunately, as I've said before in this thread or another thread, the cure may be worse than the disease. I just don't like the idea of passing new laws restricting businesses, especially if they eventually prove to be useless since ponzi schemers are eminently adaptable. Amway itself represents a later stage of evolution of the pyramid/ponzi scheme, since pyramid schemes were already illegal long before Amway was founded. They just cleverly use those over-priced products of theirs and other tactics to disguise this.

I believe you are right. The 1979 FTC ruling that cleared Amway allowed copycat MLM's to structure themselves like Amway and hide the pyramid by having a product. The product's viability can be debated but under the ruling, was legal.

The problem is that the FTC did not clearly define some of their parameters. They said that a majority of product must be sold to end users but they did not clearly define end user as a non participant in the scheme. Thus folks like icerat use that to mean that 100% sales to distributors is legal. That however, contradicts the FTC's spirit of the law where most products should be moved to (non participant) customers.

Also, while Amway had "requirements" of sales to customers, they had no way to enforce that requirement and I don't believe that requirement is enforced now. There are ways around that requirement and I believe the rule has been rendered ineffective.

Bottom line is that nearly 100% of people who join Amway make nothing or lose money. MLM defenders like icerat have various excuses for this such as people join Amway without the intent of making money or that people join because they like the products. If that were true, then why such a high attrition rate? I'm sure Costco doesn't have a 50% non renewal rate.

Then there's the predatory tool companies who sell seminars, voice mail, cds and books. These companies have not been examined by the FTC. They are the real scam.