Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Mary_H]

Couldn’t agree with you more, I found his honesty and openness refreshing, nice that folks here helped out with translations.

Well I don’t know, Mr Cheli has written an article and states his reasons for his conclusion I would love to see a rebuttal and compare, if only for the sake of discussion; similarly I would like to see other Supreme Court motivations where an appeal has been annulled to determine whether you and others are correct about this particular motivations, you know try to be objective.<snip>

I don't think anyone could be completely objective without knowing the actual laws the judges refer to.

You might want to check out PMF. Skeptical Bystander has this to say:

If Amanda Knox is having a hard time wrapping her head around the reasons the Hellmann acquittal was annulled (except for her calunnia conviction), then I suggest she simply read the SC report. Without going into detail, I think it is clear that in order to secure the acquittal the Hellmann court had to commit multiple violations of procedure and twist itself into illogical, contradictory knots in the process. I am not a lawyer and I am sure my ability to understand written Italian is not as good as AK's, but I was able to pretty much get the gist of it. The report is "absolutely devastating and explains quite clearly why the SC had no choice but to accept most of the content of the Prosecutor General's appeal grounds.

You will notice she says she doesn't want to go into detail (hmm, wonder why), but they may have been discussing it earlier there. I just skimmed the page; they mostly seem to be talking about Amanda not going to her upcoming trial and whether or not Raffaele will show up.

Please note, the SC report is "absolutely devastating," which I think is another way of saying it is ominous.

 

[Bill Williams]

If Amanda Knox is having a hard time wrapping her head around the reasons the Hellmann acquittal was annulled (except for her calunnia conviction), then I suggest she simply read the SC report. Without going into detail, I think it is clear that in order to secure the acquittal the Hellmann court had to commit multiple violations of procedure and twist itself into illogical, contradictory knots in the process. I am not a lawyer and I am sure my ability to understand written Italian is not as good as AK's, but I was able to pretty much get the gist of it. The report is "absolutely devastating and explains quite clearly why the SC had no choice but to accept most of the content of the Prosecutor General's appeal grounds.

You will notice she says she doesn't want to go into detail (hmm, wonder why), but they may have been discussing it earlier there. I just skimmed the page; they mostly seem to be talking about Amanda not going to her upcoming trial and whether or not Raffaele will show up.

Please note, the SC report is "absolutely devastating," which I think is another way of saying it is ominous.

It's not just Amanda Knox who has trouble understanding the rationale of the ISC... it is also perhaps the rest of the Western World, or has Peggy not watched CNN lately or read a copy of the Daily Mail. I believe it was Peggy who once regarded the Daily Mail as one of the most trusted sources of info on this - well, at least as long as it was printing lurid stuff which ended up having actually NOTHING to do with the crime.

How's that for objective?

Does Peggy still regard guilt to be determined by a photo?

 

[RandyN]

The possibility remains that the bomb thread call was real and just coincidental. The approaching sirens would be a strong motivation to immediately ditch the phones.

Sure ...this is the only logical conclusion. But you must admit it is one hell of a coincidence...in retrospect. Not that there are many odd things revealed about this case...right?

 

[RandyN]

Oh just for the sake of accuracy I didn’t mention government officials or make any comment about anyone’s level of intelligence. Like others I quoted extracts from Mr Cheli article that suited the point I was making about objectivity or bias.

Imagine the indignation amongst pro-innocence posters here if someone and written an article who wasn’t a lawyer and stated she believed Raffaele and Amanda were culpable and essentially agreed with the Supreme Court motivations with supporting arguments.

One other question, Mr Cheli mentions ECHR as others have done, does ECHR have the power to overturn a member states Supreme Court ruling? Do you or anyone else know whether Raffaele and Amanda will be attending their appeal next month?

See Bills post above but add that Italy alongside Turkey have such poor records of violations by their courts so as to far exceed every other country including Russia for violations by its courts. Italy has several thousand in the same time period that Russia has 350. Also in the same time period Spain has 12 violations IIRC.

So Italy has its poor record of human rights violations to always fall back on...lol. One of the most often convicted violations of Italy is failure to provide a fair trial.

So even given the low percentages of 3 % reviewed and whatever found...when it comes to Italy the ECOHR understand who they are working with...and the Italian courts are fairly judged by the content of their character. 2021 violations vs Russia 350. Good job Italy.

 

[Antony]

Well I don’t know, Mr Cheli has written an article and states his reasons for his conclusion I would love to see a rebuttal

Why don't you offer a rebuttal?

and compare, if only for the sake of discussion;

That's a bit of a turnaround from your usual line that discussion here has no purpose.

 

[acbytesla]

It's not just Amanda Knox who has trouble understanding the rationale of the ISC... it is also perhaps the rest of the Western World, or has Peggy not watched CNN lately or read a copy of the Daily Mail. I believe it was Peggy who once regarded the Daily Mail as one of the most trusted sources of info on this - well, at least as long as it was printing lurid stuff which ended up having actually NOTHING to do with the crime.

How's that for objective?

Does Peggy still regard guilt to be determined by a photo?

I have to give Machiavelli credit. It is as if Mach wrote this nonsensical document with it bizarre contradictions.

 

[Dan O.]

Sure ...this is the only logical conclusion. But you must admit it is one hell of a coincidence...in retrospect. Not that there are many odd things revealed about this case...right?

I had written much earlier about a possible causal relationship where the phones end up in the hand of a fence who then discovers after getting home that the phones were taken from a murder victim and that the phones were still on and with the incomming message they could be traced to that general area. Now, it's not only necessary to get rid of the phones, the police have to find the phones before they start searching the area for where they might have been. Tossing them into a neighbor's garden and faking the bomb threat call should do the trick. Faking the call would not be beyond the skill of a phone hacker. Getting the perugian police to actually notice the phones as they trip over them would be.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I don't think anyone could be completely objective without knowing the actual laws the judges refer to.

That seems reasonable, but it is also a question of interpretation of laws and finding past judgements to bolster a given position.

You might want to check out PMF. Skeptical Bystander has this to say:

You will notice she says she doesn't want to go into detail (hmm, wonder why), but they may have been discussing it earlier there. I just skimmed the page; they mostly seem to be talking about Amanda not going to her upcoming trial and whether or not Raffaele will show up.

Please note, the SC report is "absolutely devastating," which I think is another way of saying it is ominous.

There doesn’t appear to be anything of substance in the media from either the prosecution or defence teams. I am not so sure the signs are ominous. The Supreme Court didn’t rule that V & C report was inadmissible, it will be interesting to see how the appeal court deals with this; will it allow the prosecution to call its own experts, if so we’ll back to the 1st level trial where everyone called their own experts.

See Bills post above but add that Italy alongside Turkey have such poor records of violations by their courts so as to far exceed every other country including Russia for violations by its courts. Italy has several thousand in the same time period that Russia has 350. Also in the same time period Spain has 12 violations IIRC.

So Italy has its poor record of human rights violations to always fall back on...lol. One of the most often convicted violations of Italy is failure to provide a fair trial.

So even given the low percentages of 3 % reviewed and whatever found...when it comes to Italy the ECOHR understand who they are working with...and the Italian courts are fairly judged by the content of their character. 2021 violations vs Russia 350. Good job Italy.

Well at least Italy is a member of ECHR and as such it’s violations are a matter of public record, whilst the US isn’t a signatory of the ECHR’s big brother International Court of Justice (ICJ). Italy’s standing or the lack of it is no more relevant that than US not being a signatory to the ICJ.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Why don't you offer a rebuttal?

If I were fluent in Italian I would, for me it isn’t just a case of reading the translation then voicing and opinion of its legality or illegality I would want to review other annulled appeals and Supreme Court motivations in those cases, I wonder how long Mr Cheli worked on his article.

That's a bit of a turnaround from your usual line that discussion here has no purpose.

Yawn.

 

[JREF2010]

Getting the perugian police to actually notice the phones as they trip over them would be.

That brings back memory's of the officer who kicks in the glass, of the downstairs apartment door. I always thought that was so stupid looking, clod-hoppers, bumbling, stupid. Couldn't they just as easily remove a hinge or use a hammer to break the door glass?

Like a hoard of cows stampeding through the cottage, Stefonani, Napoleoni, Migninni didn't even keep a list of who all came and went in and out. A sloppy job was done in hindsight.

I understand this group had rarely ever worked a murder case, but surely they can see how ramrodding a crime scene is a horrific approach.

Handling the phones....surfing the web on Raffaeles pc and erasing critical info, what idiots would do that?

I often think there is corruption, but a lot of the issues seem to be just pure ignorance and incompetence by the Flying Squad and the Prosecution goofballs.

 

[Diocletus]

Well at least Italy is a member of ECHR and as such it’s violations are a matter of public record, whilst the US isn’t a signatory of the ECHR’s big brother International Court of Justice (ICJ). Italy’s standing or the lack of it is no more relevant that than US not being a signatory to the ICJ.

I'm sorry not to be able to follow this. In what way would the US violations be relevant to the Kercher trial? Also, are you suggesting that the only way a judicial system's violations would become public record would be by signing up for the ICJ?

Thank God Italy has signed up for the ICJ, because as far as I can tell, this is a totally dysfunctional justice system with judges who just aren't that bright. Some adults have to be involved at some point in the process.

 

[cuki777]

cuki pbs #46

I'm sorry not to be able to follow this. In what way would the US violations be relevant to the Kercher trial? Also, are you suggesting that the only way a judicial system's violations would become public record would be by signing up for the ICJ?

Thank God Italy has signed up for the ICJ, because as far as I can tell, this is a totally dysfunctional justice system with judges who just aren't that bright. Some adults have to be involved at some point in the process.

ECHR then ICJ is there anything after that other than God?

 

[codyjuneau]

The possibility remains that the bomb thread call was real and just coincidental. The approaching sirens would be a strong motivation to immediately ditch the phones.

.
The possible explanations are not the issue. The issue is that after 6 years we are not sure of the real explanation, because the police have never proven their claim that the bomb threat phone call was a kid's prank. We do not even have an exact time for that call. Considering how critical this information could be for determining what happened that night, and how consistently the police have withheld information, I don't get the almost universal apathy towards this issue.

Consider the implications if that call was made with Meredith's Italian cell phone?
.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the right incentives

.
The possible explanations are not the issue. The issue is that after 6 years we are not sure of the real explanation, because the police have never proven their claim that the bomb threat phone call was a kid's prank. We do not even have an exact time for that call. Considering how critical this information could be for determining what happened that night, and how consistently the police have withheld information, I don't get the almost universal apathy towards this issue.

Consider the implications if that call was made with Meredith's Italian cell phone?

Your points are well taken. I cannot think of a good reason to withhold this information from the defense.

With respect to withholding information in this case, I don't think that Italian police are by nature any worse than any other police force, but there seems to be a pervasive lack of accountability in the police system, as implied by Amnesty International: "There was no independent police complaints and accountability body. Policing operations were not in line with the European Code of Police Ethics, for example in the requirement for officers to display prominently some form of identification, such as a service number, to ensure they could be held accountable." Without a system of incentives directed toward producing good behavior, there is little reason for behavior to be good.

 

[Diocletus]

ECHR then ICJ is there anything after that other than God?

Yes. Extradition.

 

[Diocletus]

.
The possible explanations are not the issue. The issue is that after 6 years we are not sure of the real explanation, because the police have never proven their claim that the bomb threat phone call was a kid's prank. We do not even have an exact time for that call. Considering how critical this information could be for determining what happened that night, and how consistently the police have withheld information, I don't get the almost universal apathy towards this issue.

Consider the implications if that call was made with Meredith's Italian cell phone?
.

Every time the police in this case try to mitigate an issue, it raises a tremendous red flag for me.

In fact, I think that you learn the most about this case by examining the places where we find the least evidence accompanied by the most adamant attempts to diminish the importance of the missing evidence.

Watch the prosecution closely every time they shout "look, squirrel!"

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>Without a system of incentives directed toward producing good behavior, there is little reason for behavior to be good.

There used to be something called "character."

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Dan Ariely's work in behavioral economics

There used to be something called "character."

I agree, and I probably should have said that one should not expect behavior always to be good. And there are examples where character was enough to keep an imperfect system working. But I do not trust a system that relies upon character alone. After i read Dan Ariely's book, "The honest truth about dishonesty," I became less sanguine about a good many things.

 

[Dan O.]

Consider the implications if that call was made with Meredith's Italian cell phone?

I don't think I will. For all we know, the defense has received a copy of the sim data from Meredith's phones and a copy of the telephone call records for those phones. If there was another outgoing call made by either of Meredith's phones that night we would have heard about it. I will wait until there is some credible claim that the defense was denied this data before I start speculating on what the data might contain.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Now she's refusing to return to Italy to face justice. Sounds like an admission of guilt to me.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/24/world/europe/amanda-knox-italy-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t3