New TWA Flight 800 film coming out

[JayUtah]

<snip>

You lose. Thank You.

<snip>

You've conceded. Thanks.

<snip>

Somebody's not being honest.

I'll just leave this sitting here...

 

[LSSBB]

I'll just leave this sitting here...

Is there a manual for how to come across as a dismissive conspiracy theorist by using self-congratulatory talk, premature declarations of victory, and arrogant replies to your critics? It's all so very like several others in a long line.

 

[tsig]

Ah, but it does, as the unidirectional ejecta plume that no one can answer proves. You can't have a one-sided plume from a fuel tank explosion that the fuel tank forensics in the hangar show blew-out symmetrically, as well as your CIA animation. Tansy's contrived radar excuses don't answer this. So, actually, the radar does support a missile. Tansy's arguments were false, by the way, because you can still extract the mach 4 ejecta from the data. ALL the forensics are on our side. None are on yours, which is why the official investigation was unable to show any evidence of a center tank explosion being the cause.

Doesn't a warhead explode in all directions?

 

[jhunter1163]

Why would the explosion plume from the fuel tank be symmetrical? Wouldn't it blow out the weakest point in the tank, wherever that might be?

 

[carlitos]

Doesn't a warhead explode in all directions?

Why would the explosion plume from the fuel tank be symmetrical? Wouldn't it blow out the weakest point in the tank, wherever that might be?

Don't trouble him with engineering questions; he still can't even name the captain or quote the coroner.

 

[Hans]

Don't trouble him with engineering questions; he still can't even name the captain or quote the coroner.

Yes and he stated them so strongly - like he'd done deep research on the matter. Instead of just picking up a few CT points and flinging them around so he would a reason to scream at people ......lol

 

[catsmate]

I've done extensive reading on this.

But no actual research obviously.

I tried to Google the source to no avail.

However any basic Googling of the subject will show the seeker that Medical Examiner Charles Wetli identified round shrapnel pellets that FBI sent to a lab.

Pathetic. That's the best you can manage to support your claims? How about you supply, at the least:

• photographic evidence that these "pellets" actually exist
• chain of custody for them
• details of their examination
• details of the weapon type from which they allegedly come

The information I posted was from a conversation with Wetli where he elaborated further about the metals contained in those pellets as being the precise metals used in missile warhead shrapnel.

Citation required. Primary sources not fourth hand nonsense.

This was recorded by FBI in their 30 page analysis of the pellets which they then illegally failed to return to Wetli's jurisdiction.

Evidence?

The facts will back me on this like the bridge-shaking.

Alas reality won't support you.

PETN is not a propellant.

Well it can be used as a rocket propellant, in small proportions, mixed with other material. However JB's allegations are rubbish for a number of reasons:

• No US 1996 era SAM used PETN aas part of it's propellant mix
• where it was used it was a small part of the composition
• none of the other materials that'd be mixed with it were detected, despite the fact that they'd be present in greater quantities

Oh and PETN is rarely used as a warhead filler, and again no USN SAM in service in 1996 used it.

Unlikely, since the FBI was the one to announce the PETN findings.

Indeed. And the FAA and NTSB found the most probably source was contamination during the recovery of the wreckage. Any traces from missile/rocket/bomb/drone/suicide plane would have been eliminated buring the plane's immersion in seawater.

Please find a hypothesis and stick with it. You've now claimed the forensic evidence backs up three different, incompatible conclusions.

It's rather the the 911 Twoofers, flitting from nanothermite to nukes to CD fantasies.

OK, which AA missiles is it used in?

No. It was not used in any surface-to-air missile n US service in 1996 either as a propellant or warhead filler.

What is the fuel used in US missiles?

That depends on the motor used, there were several mixes used. Typically a fuel (e.g. powdered aluminium) and oxidiser (nitrate/perchlorate/picrate) and binder (polyurethane or polybutadiene for example).

PETN and RDX?? so it was Semtex?

Unlikely. The damage to the aircraft described in the NTSB report was incompatible with a bomb (or any explosion) nor was the explosive residue characteristic of Semtex-H. More likely it was contamination.

Doesn't a warhead explode in all directions?

It's possible to directionalise it to a degree, especially the emission of a designed fragmentation pattern.

Yes and he stated them so strongly - like he'd done deep research on the matter. Instead of just picking up a few CT points and flinging them around so he would a reason to scream at people ......lol

Alas rather typical.

 

[Sideroxylon]

What a broad and deep wealth of knowledge we have on these forums. What a comprehensive pantsing this has been.

 

[Andy_Ross]

No. It was not used in any surface-to-air missile n US service in 1996 either as a propellant or warhead filler.

That depends on the motor used, there were several mixes used. Typically a fuel (e.g. powdered aluminium) and oxidiser (nitrate/perchlorate/picrate) and binder (polyurethane or polybutadiene for example).

Unlikely. The damage to the aircraft described in the NTSB report was incompatible with a bomb (or any explosion) nor was the explosive residue characteristic of Semtex-H. More likely it was contamination.

I know tat, I wanted to see if the OP knew as well.

 

[Jetblast]

• No US 1996 era SAM used PETN aas part of it's propellant mix
• where it was used it was a small part of the composition
• none of the other materials that'd be mixed with it were detected, despite the fact that they'd be present in greater quantities

Oh and PETN is rarely used as a warhead filler, and again no USN SAM in service in 1996 used it.

Not working.

Galloped in his own gish. He was wrong.

Your entry goes against the evidence. Any person honestly pretending the objective analysis of evidence you pretend would not allow themselves to avoid answering the obvious begging question how then did the streak of residue get on the seats in an exhaust plume pattern? We know it wasn't seat glue. What was it? Since the FBI explanation is now disproven we revert to the credible laboratory that tested it as PETN. Again, you are arguing against established fact with an attitude that suggests I have failed to meet your standards. The idea here isn't to establish the best sophist arguments but is instead to determine the best reasonable conclusion the evidence leads us to. You have no explanation for the PETN found in the residue and illegally destroyed by the investigation. We have witnesses to back up the missile as well as evidence the government tried to cover it up. You, on the other hand, have no explanation for how PETN ended-up in an exhaust plume pattern across 3 rows of seats?

Let's do some missile exhaust tests with Boeing seat fabric and see how it compares? Especially the classic chemical reddish purple color. Funny how a country like America, with all its technical ability, can't figure out such a simple test. The lab probably isolated PETN because it was an incriminating substance that would isolate either explosives or propellant.

 

[Jetblast]

Sephton vs FBI:



Apart from the single page released to Sephton, the FBI has released only one other forensic autopsy laboratory report out of those missing hundreds, Sephton said. That report, originally classified “Secret” by the FBI, was an analysis performed by Brookhaven National Lab to evaluate 20 small (~1/4” diameter) pellets removed during autopsy of the person identified by the medical examiner as case 96-5037. The pellets were designated Item “1B-28.”

The lab report showed that a sample pellet was composed mostly of aluminum with traces of titanium, zirconium, cerium and barium.

Such compounds are consistent with incendiary pellets used in some missiles, Sephton said. The report merely concluded “unknown origin.” The details of 1B-28 were among more than 200 fairly innocuous pages of documents released in response to a Freedom of Information Act request from another independent researcher, Don Collins, in California.

Even if the remarkable incendiary components could be explained, Sephton said, the official low-velocity type fuel explosion could not shatter aluminum into small pellets.

 

[DGM]

Sephton vs FBI:



Apart from the single page released to Sephton, the FBI has released only one other forensic autopsy laboratory report out of those missing hundreds, Sephton said. That report, originally classified “Secret” by the FBI, was an analysis performed by Brookhaven National Lab to evaluate 20 small (~1/4” diameter) pellets removed during autopsy of the person identified by the medical examiner as case 96-5037. The pellets were designated Item “1B-28.”

The lab report showed that a sample pellet was composed mostly of aluminum with traces of titanium, zirconium, cerium and barium.

Such compounds are consistent with incendiary pellets used in some missiles, Sephton said. The report merely concluded “unknown origin.” The details of 1B-28 were among more than 200 fairly innocuous pages of documents released in response to a Freedom of Information Act request from another independent researcher, Don Collins, in California.

Even if the remarkable incendiary components could be explained, Sephton said, the official low-velocity type fuel explosion could not shatter aluminum into small pellets.

Do you have a source for this (primary)?

You do know autopsy reports are not generally released to the public? Can you guess why?

 

[beachnut]

Sephton vs FBI:



Apart from the single page released to Sephton, the FBI has released only one other forensic autopsy laboratory report out of those missing hundreds, Sephton said. That report, originally classified “Secret” by the FBI, was an analysis performed by Brookhaven National Lab to evaluate 20 small (~1/4” diameter) pellets removed during autopsy of the person identified by the medical examiner as case 96-5037. The pellets were designated Item “1B-28.”

The lab report showed that a sample pellet was composed mostly of aluminum with traces of titanium, zirconium, cerium and barium.

Such compounds are consistent with incendiary pellets used in some missiles, Sephton said. The report merely concluded “unknown origin.” The details of 1B-28 were among more than 200 fairly innocuous pages of documents released in response to a Freedom of Information Act request from another independent researcher, Don Collins, in California.

Even if the remarkable incendiary components could be explained, Sephton said, the official low-velocity type fuel explosion could not shatter aluminum into small pellets.

Stuff from 2005? Your junk has failed 7 years ago. You have googled your way back to failure without checking the dates, the facts, and fall for delusional claims made up by non-experts in aircraft accident investigations. One the sources for woo was in charge of inventory - a clerk, not an engineer, or expert.

What next? The news about the film was for publicity. Did you buy the film filled with woo woo? You ask questions about fantasy, and never source or prove a point. Talk.

You ignore the real safety issue, and make up silly stuff of missiles. Why do the witness statements not match? Why is there no damage to flight 800 from a missile? Why have you failed to read the NTSB reports on 800? Too much trouble to read reality, google is easier, is that why you ignore NTSB work?

Is it possible for the center wing tank to explode under the conditions of Flt 800 that day? Read up and learn using science instead of google up with woo.

The FBI? The NTSB does accidents, the FBI does crime. 800 started off as both since witnesses were fooled by their eyes and made up stories of missiles, some most likely seeing flames reflections on water rising to meet falling debris, or the flaming aircraft rising after the nose fell off, called CG, the aircraft body would violently pitch up after losing the nose. You can't imagine how important CG is not being a pilot, or an engineer. Do you check the dates of your woo, it has expired.

http://twa800.com/sephton/fbi-shrapnel-case-report-nov03.htm

Graeme Sephton Nov 1, 2003... oops I was wrong, you got 10 year old smelly woo

 

[catsmate]

Your entry goes against the evidence.

What evidence would that be then?

Any person honestly pretending the objective analysis of evidence you pretend would not allow themselves to avoid answering the obvious begging question how then did the streak of residue get on the seats in an exhaust plume pattern?

Strawman

We know it wasn't seat glue.

No "we" know no such thing.

What was it?

Seat adhesive. As indicated ny the manufacturer and proven by testing.

Since the FBI explanation is now disproven

Except it hasn't been. Also the FBI didn't carry out this testing. A fact you should have been aware of.

we revert to the credible laboratory that tested it as PETN.

No the reddish adhesive residue didn't test positive for any explosive.

Again, you are arguing against established fact

What facts would they be? State them clearly without evasion please.

with an attitude that suggests I have failed to meet your standards.

Correct you have. Yove failed utterly to establish any malfeasance or misfeasance in the investigation of flight TWA 800. You've also failed to show any credible evidence of explosion, bomb or missile.
Further you've engaged in deception and evasion when confronted with material which contradicts your preferred version of events.

The idea here isn't to establish the best sophist arguments

Strawman.

You have no explanation for the PETN found in the residue

A lie. The explosive residue, and I note with continued interest your ignoring of the positive tests for RDX and nitroglycerine, was most probably introduced during the recovery of the wreckage. This explanation ic compatible with the presence of three different explosives and the fact that the immersion of the aircraft wreckage in seawater for 2+ days would have eliminated any prior traces.

and illegally destroyed by the investigation.

A fact you have yet to prove, despite being repeatedly asked to do so.

We have witnesses to back up the missile as well as evidence the government tried to cover it up.

No you don't.

You, on the other hand, have no explanation for how PETN ended-up in an exhaust plume pattern across 3 rows of seats?

Strawman and well poisoning. The explsove trace didn't, as you well know, occur over a large area. The "exhaust plume" claim is simply nonsensical. And of course you have yet to name your "magic missile" that was capable of launch from a submarine (the presence of which you have also yet to prove) and used PETA containing propellant.

Let's do some missile exhaust tests with Boeing seat fabric and see how it compares?

Why bother? Why not test whether explosive residue could survive immersion in saltwater for 2+ day. Oh, wait, the FAA did such tests and it shows you fantasy to be nonsense.

Especially the classic chemical reddish purple color.

Why are you so obsessed with the colour of the seat fabric adhesive?

Funny how a country like America, with all its technical ability, can't figure out such a simple test.

Strawman.

The lab probably isolated PETN because it was an incriminating substance that would isolate either explosives or propellant.

No the lab tests showed three samples that showed explosive trace, one RDX, one with RDX and PETN and one with nitroglycerine. I understand that this fact is inconvenient to your little fantasy but it's not going away no matter how hard you wish.
And then there's the fact that PETN is rarely used as a rocket propellant, not used in any in-service SAMs in 1996 and also not used in their warheads (it's actually rarely used in missile warheads).

 

[matt.tansy]

So PETN was found on seats. PETN that somehow survived the combustion of thousands of degrees Celsius of exhaust plume even though PETN is the most combustible ingredient in rocket propellant. On seats that somehow remained unscorched by thousands of degrees Celsius of exhaust plume. By an exhaust plume that didn't leave any other pre-combustion or post-combustion residue anywhere else on the aircraft. By a missile with a warhead that sent fragments through the fuselage without actually touching it, fragments that only hit the passengers and not the seats, floor, overhead bins, or the passengers' carry-on luggage. It is obvious the culprits came from somewhere in Scotland

 

[Jetblast]

Aha! You've asked the 64c question. Have a muffin.
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/162724fb2ad0e1c8ec.png[/qimg]


OK, smear tests (later confirmed by lab tests) show three spots with explosive residue, in trace amounts, on material from the passenger cabin; one RDX, one RDX/PETN and one nitroglycerine

The problem for the wackjobs, is that the results were weak, there was a valid explanation for trace amounts of explosive and the variety of explosives is odd, inconsistent with bomb or missile.

JB and some of the other CTers mention the reddish-brown residue found on several passenger seats, this was found to be adhesive. This was a major part of one of the earlier CTs about the crash as the binder used in several commercial, PETN derived, explosives is red due to the binder used.

The NTSB looked into the explosive traces and considered if they were the result of the aircraft being used during the Gulf War or traces left from sniffer dog training that had used the plane; however testing by the FAA showed that the amount of time the aircraft had been immersed in seawater would have eliminated any such traces and concluded that they were contamination from the recovery of the wreckage which involved military personnel, vehicles and ships. Which also explains the three different explosives found.

Examination of the wreckage (structure, framing, interior, seats et cetera) found none of the damage that would be expected from an explosion, bomb or missile.
Of course the conspiracy nuts ignore this.

Now I must go molest a Power Ranger.

No. They got caught lying about the St Louis bomb test. The bomb residue was found on the wings and in the cargo compartment. You are not doing an accurate forensic evaluation of the residue because the reddish purple streak has a forensic pattern of being missile exhaust. Once you have physical evidence like this it conditions the other explosives residue traces. It's not like hundreds of people didn't see a missile streaking towards Flight 800. If it was seat glue you would need to explain how it ended-up streaked across 3 rows of seats in a reddish purple exhaust plume pattern? You need to explain the forensic cause for that.


The statement that the residue was found to be seat glue is false. You have no reason to ignore NASA scientist Charley Basset coming forward and protesting that he never did the tests they said he did. Normally this would be a serious scandal but there was no follow-through. You are showing people you use investigation crimes to support your arguments.


The new documentary has NTSB members of the investigation coming forward to say they actually did find evidence of high velocity missile shrapnel damage that was impossible for a fuel explosion. How many crash investigations have had NTSB investigators come forward and protest they were prevented from doing an honest investigation? That evidence was removed? This is what is being ignored here.

 

[catsmate]

No. They got caught lying about the St Louis bomb test. The bomb residue was found on the wings and in the cargo compartment. You are not doing an accurate forensic evaluation of the residue because the reddish purple streak has a forensic pattern of being missile exhaust. Once you have physical evidence like this it conditions the other explosives residue traces. It's not like hundreds of people didn't see a missile streaking towards Flight 800. If it was seat glue you would need to explain how it ended-up streaked across 3 rows of seats in a reddish purple exhaust plume pattern? You need to explain the forensic cause for that.


The statement that the residue was found to be seat glue is false. You have no reason to ignore NASA scientist Charley Basset coming forward and protesting that he never did the tests they said he did. Normally this would be a serious scandal but there was no follow-through. You are showing people you use investigation crimes to support your arguments.


The new documentary has NTSB members of the investigation coming forward to say they actually did find evidence of high velocity missile shrapnel damage that was impossible for a fuel explosion. How many crash investigations have had NTSB investigators come forward and protest they were prevented from doing an honest investigation? That evidence was removed? This is what is being ignored here.

Sigh. More desperate, unsupported assertions. Pathetic.

 

[beachnut]

No. They got caught lying about the St Louis bomb test. The bomb residue was found on the wings and in the cargo compartment. You are not doing an accurate forensic evaluation of the residue because the reddish purple streak has a forensic pattern of being missile exhaust. Once you have physical evidence like this it conditions the other explosives residue traces. It's not like hundreds of people didn't see a missile streaking towards Flight 800. If it was seat glue you would need to explain how it ended-up streaked across 3 rows of seats in a reddish purple exhaust plume pattern? You need to explain the forensic cause for that.


The statement that the residue was found to be seat glue is false. You have no reason to ignore NASA scientist Charley Basset coming forward and protesting that he never did the tests they said he did. Normally this would be a serious scandal but there was no follow-through. You are showing people you use investigation crimes to support your arguments.


The new documentary has NTSB members of the investigation coming forward to say they actually did find evidence of high velocity missile shrapnel damage that was impossible for a fuel explosion. How many crash investigations have had NTSB investigators come forward and protest they were prevented from doing an honest investigation? That evidence was removed? This is what is being ignored here.

What a bunch of nonsense. There are no NTSB investigators, there are some people who worked for or with the NTSB, but they are not the investigators who analysis the data, they were worker bees who can't figure out reality, make up lies and feed a right wing nut who makes up lies about Ron Brown, 911, and TWA 800. A lie machine to feed the gullible who buy books, and DVDs of woo. Follow the money $$$. Same old BS.

Here you are bringing un-sourced bs to a skeptic forum as if it was real. It is all about the silly film, and people not qualified to figure out RADAR. You don't know anything about RADAR, and they have fooled you into posting stuff you googled from a silly web site filled with nonsense.

Look at your posts, copy and paste junk you google. No original work, all failed junk you can google up. No able to find or read the NTSB reports, reports, yes there are many to support the CWT problem, because the Air Conditioning Equipment is right below the CWT and they make lots of heat, which makes the fumes in an empty tank explosive, and a small spark can set it off. Amazingly enough, there are wires in the tank... oops...

A big problem when you run the AC on the ground, it overheats the CWT and makes an explosive atmosphere. Guess who fly a 747... Air Force One, the big deal not only for all of us flying on 747, but the president too.

Your sources are full of woo, one of the sources implies Ron Brown was killed by the Clintons, in his aircraft accident. You love woo, or what?

 

[kookbreaker]

No. They got caught lying about the St Louis bomb test. The bomb residue was found on the wings and in the cargo compartment. You are not doing an accurate forensic evaluation of the residue because the reddish purple streak has a forensic pattern of being missile exhaust. Once you have physical evidence like this it conditions the other explosives residue traces. It's not like hundreds of people didn't see a missile streaking towards Flight 800. If it was seat glue you would need to explain how it ended-up streaked across 3 rows of seats in a reddish purple exhaust plume pattern? You need to explain the forensic cause for that.


The statement that the residue was found to be seat glue is false. You have no reason to ignore NASA scientist Charley Basset coming forward and protesting that he never did the tests they said he did. Normally this would be a serious scandal but there was no follow-through. You are showing people you use investigation crimes to support your arguments.


The new documentary has NTSB members of the investigation coming forward to say they actually did find evidence of high velocity missile shrapnel damage that was impossible for a fuel explosion. How many crash investigations have had NTSB investigators come forward and protest they were prevented from doing an honest investigation? That evidence was removed? This is what is being ignored here.

Does it ever occur to you to cite you claims? Just asking.

 

[Jetblast]

So PETN was found on seats. PETN that somehow survived the combustion of thousands of degrees Celsius of exhaust plume even though PETN is the most combustible ingredient in rocket propellant. On seats that somehow remained unscorched by thousands of degrees Celsius of exhaust plume. By an exhaust plume that didn't leave any other pre-combustion or post-combustion residue anywhere else on the aircraft. By a missile with a warhead that sent fragments through the fuselage without actually touching it, fragments that only hit the passengers and not the seats, floor, overhead bins, or the passengers' carry-on luggage. It is obvious the culprits came from somewhere in Scotland

It would make sense that the missile suffered damage upon impacting the 747 and leaked some PETN. But let's do those exhaust tests just to make sure.

All you are really saying here is you don't have any credible explanation for it.


Investigators found the Angle Of Attack Sensor left data on the Flight Data Recorder showing perfect evidence for a blast passing across it from the underbelly proximity detonation direction. The Angle Of Attack Sensor is like a weather vein on a barn. It actually looks like one. It is designed to have airflow pass over it so it can inform the flight computer which way the air is passing over the fuselage in order to control flight. The data on the FDR showed the sensor did a quick shift in perfect conformity with a blast passing across it from the same direction as an explosion under the forward of the aircraft. Then it returned to normal. When approached with this officials said the severing of the FDR wires from the cockpit when the nose fell off corrupted the data.

Yup.