Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[A'isha]

Oh, and as an example of that blog's cherry-picking, they rather mis-state CREDO's findings. In the full 2013 27-state study, for instance, only 25% of charter schools had their students show an improvement in reading performance over public schools, 56% of charter schools showed no difference in performance, and 19% had their students perform worse than students in public schools. For math, charter schools were overall inferior to their public school counterparts: 29% of charter schools had their students show an improvement in math performance over public schools, 40% of charter schools showed no difference in performance, and 31% had their students perform worse.

As they note:

The fraction of charter schools that outperform their local TPS alternatives is 25% of charter schools in reading and 29% in math. This marks an improvement since 2009 when 17% of charter schools outperformed their local TPS in math. The fraction that performed worse declined slightly in math (31% down from 37% in 2009) and in reading accounted for 19% of charter schools.

Despite these improvements, there remain worrying numbers of charter schools whose learning gains are either substantially worse than the local alternative or are insufficient to give their students the academic preparation they need to continue their education or be successful in the workforce.

In other words, in the four years since the original CREDO study, charter schools have improved their performance relative to public schools, but since they started out as overall so much worse than public schools that even now they're barely an acceptable alternative to public schools. If you want your child to have a good math education, for instance, there's a one in three chance that the charter school they go to will give them a worse math education than if you sent them to a public school! And even then, as the study notes, the increased performance was attributable to the closure of some underperforming charter schools, an easy trick to improving overall scores that public schools cannot use (though, as seen above, even when they "cheated" like this", a large number of charter schools were still worse than public schools).

And, again, this is just overall...when broken down by state, the misleading nature of the blog post becomes even more apparent:

In reading, charter school students, on average, have better learning gains than TPS students in 16 of the 27 states evaluated. Reading learning gains are weaker for charter students in eight states and similar in three states. In math, 12 states have better learning gains at charter schools than at TPS, while charter schools in 13 states have lower learning gains, and two states have charters with similar learning gains compared to TPS.

Pennsylvania charter schools had the second-worst learning gain in reading, and the third-worst learning gain in math among the 27 states tested, and were much worse in both subjects than Pennsylvania public schools.

Why should the taxpayers of Pennsylvania keep paying for charter schools, instead of taking the money being spent on them and fully funding their better-performing public school system, Malcolm?

 

[A'isha]

False on two counts. I have repeatedly supplied evidence, in the form of variations in system performance as a function of the degree of parent control (the inverse of government control).

No, you've made repeated assertions, but you've neither provided evidence, nor described how the "variations in system performance as a function of the degree of parent control" has anything to do with compulsion of students to attend school, since it's parents that make children go to school and do homework. You have yet, for instance, to explain why students who attend private schools and home schools are exempt from this "degradation".

Nothing in Einstein's observation on the malign effects of compulsion exempts US schools.

You mean other than him specifically exempting US schools in his observation? Sheesh...

The generalization is correct. He had no direct experience of pre-college US schools.

Then why do you use his observation as a criticism of pre-college US schools? That strikes me as a doubly dishonest argument.

 

[Border Reiver]

Can we skip the distractions? The topic is the effect of the State's contribution, organized violence, to the education industry, not national defense.

Excellent suggestion. How about answering my request for:

A. Examples of states where failure to register your child for school will result in criminal charges, with a link to the actual legislation; and
B. some evidence of the State's contribution of organized violence in the educational system with examples.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

No, you've made repeated assertions, but you've neither provided evidence...

I cannot shove a victim of negligent schooling through the screen. The best I can do is report what I read and the results of my own statistical investigations. This I have done.

... nor described how the "variations in system performance as a function of the degree of parent control" has anything to do with compulsion of students to attend school, since it's parents that make children go to school and do homework.

Parents send children to school in response to compulsory attendance laws, taxation in support of education, policies that restrict parent's options for the use of the taxpayers' education subsidy to attendance at government-operated indoctrination centers, and child labor laws and minimum wage laws that seriously reduce opportunities for on-the-job training.

Then why do you use his observation as a criticism of pre-college US schools? That strikes me as a doubly dishonest argument.

Because the observation expresses a general principle about the effect of compulsion and he had no good reason to exempt US schools from that generalization.


<SNIP>

Edited by LashL: 

Edited to remove breach.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Excellent suggestion. How about answering my request for:

A. Examples of states where failure to register your child for school will result in criminal charges, with a link to the actual legislation:...

Hawaii Revised Statutes:...

[§302A-1135] Penalty. If any child of school age persists in absenting oneself from school, the family court judge, upon a proper petition, citation, or complaint being made by the schoolteacher or any other officer or agent of the department, or police officer, or any other person, shall cause the child, and the father or mother, guardian, or other person having charge of the child, to be summoned to appear before the judge. Upon its being proved that the person responsible for the child had not used proper diligence to enforce the child's regular attendance at school, the responsible party shall be guilty of a petty misdemeanor. This section shall not apply to any child not liable to compulsory attendance at school. [L 1996, c 89, pt of §2]

What do you suppose "compulsory attendance" means?

 

[A'isha]

I cannot shove a victim of negligent schooling through the screen. The best I can do is report what I read and the results of my own statistical investigations. This I have done.

Which is, as I said, merely unsupported assertions which have proven to be singularly unconvincing.

Parents send children to school in response to compulsory attendance laws, taxation in support of education, policies that restrict parent's options for the use of the taxpayers' education subsidy to attendance at government-operated indoctrination centers, and child labor laws and minimum wage laws that seriously reduce opportunities for on-the-job training.

This does not address the question. Why are children who are forced to go to private schools, parochial schools, charter schools, or home schools by their parents exempt from the "degradation" you talk about? If the State does not compel children to attend these schools, but instead parents (who, let's say, have been given the free choice to send their children to these schools or not) compel their children to attend them, why does this compulsion not affect their childrens' performance just as negatively?

Because the observation expresses a general principle about the effect of compulsion and he had no good reason to exempt US schools from that generalization.

It's not a generalization about the effect of compulsion, however, but an observation about a particular kind of compulsion exercised in certain authoritarian states, a kind of compulsion that Einstein explicitly stated did not exist in the non-authoritarian US.

You cannot make a broader generalization from Einstein's non-general observation. You most definitely cannot quote him as an authority to support your generalization, because it not only is your generalization, and not his, but is actually contradicted by his own words. Einstein isn't agreeing with your generalization there, he's contradicting your generalization.

 

[Niche Geek]

Hawaii Revised Statutes:...What do you suppose "compulsory attendance" means?

Well, the statute lays it out:

Uuu.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol05_Ch0261-0319/HRS0302A/HRS_0302A-1132.htm

(I can't post URL)

It allows for attendance at either a public or private school and includes an exception for alternative schooling and even employment.

 

[RandFan]

Well, the statute lays it out:

Uuu.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol05_Ch0261-0319/HRS0302A/HRS_0302A-1132.htm

(I can't post URL)

It allows for attendance at either a public or private school and includes an exception for alternative schooling and even employment.

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol05_ch0261-0319/hrs0302a/hrs_0302a-1132.htm

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

It allows for attendance at either a public or private school and includes an exception for alternative schooling and even employment.

And if parents don't jump through these hoops, cops will haul them into court. If they resist, that's a felony. If they resist effectively, police will shoot them. If a court orders them to send their kids to school, and they do not obey, that's a new crime: contempt of court. If they refuse to pay the fine for educational neglect, that's contempt of court. Cops will haul them into court. If they resist, that's a felony. If they resist effectively, cops will shoot them.

A law is a threat by a government to kidnap (arrest), assault (subdue), and forcibly infect with HIV (imprison) someone, under some specified circumstances.

 

[A'isha]

And if parents don't jump through these hoops, cops will haul them into court. If they resist, that's a felony. If they resist effectively, police will shoot them. If a court orders them to send their kids to school, and they do not obey, that's a new crime: contempt of court. If they refuse to pay the fine for educational neglect, that's contempt of court. Cops will haul them into court. If they resist, that's a felony. If they resist effectively, cops will shoot them.

A law is a threat by a government to kidnap (arrest), assault (subdue), and forcibly infect with HIV (imprison) someone, under some specified circumstances.

And unless you're advocating some form of anarchy, that's nothing more than hyperbole irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

[RandFan]

And if parents don't jump through these hoops, cops will haul them into court. I

Regardless, a parent needs to send their children to school. Not use them as income generators or fail to see to it that they are educated. God forbid the state ensure the education of its citizens.

 

[A'isha]

Why do virtually all countries, especially the wealthy industrialized ones, have compulsory education and national education standards, Malcolm? Is the NEA "cartel" pulling strings in those places as well?

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Any parent can, at the least, home school their child simply by submitting a lesson plan for their kid's education. If I'm mistaken, remind me when a parent was shot by police for not enrolling their child in a public school.

BTW, I know people who have been in prison. You keep saying "forcibly infected with HIV" with no evidence. Stop.

ETA: This was a response to MK.

 

[bruto]

Hawaii Revised Statutes:...What do you suppose "compulsory attendance" means?

So, after having regaled us with tales of violence and force and imprisonment and forced infection with AIDS, the best you can come up with is a petty misdemeanor? You need to work a little harder on this.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

In any case, even with a state-mandated compulsory education system, nothing denies the rights of parents to augment and add to their children's education. A great deal of what I know came by reading, and learning from mentors, which doesn't disappear just because you also attended a public educational institution.

 

[Niche Geek]

A law is a threat by a government to kidnap (arrest), assault (subdue), and forcibly infect with HIV (imprison) someone, under some specified circumstances.

I'm also troubled by your view of prison. The most recent data I could find indicate that only 0.5% of Hawaiian prisoners are HIV positive. Not that it is particularly relevant to your point, however it is indicative of how you balance data vs ideology.

kff.org/hivaids/state-indicator/inmates-with-hivaids-infection/

 

[RandFan]

In any case, even with a state-mandated compulsory education system, nothing denies the rights of parents to augment and add to their children's education. A great deal of what I know came by reading, and learning from mentors, which doesn't disappear just because you also attended a public educational institution.

State-mandated compulsory education ensures that children will have an opportunity at education. Prior to that and child labor laws, poor children worked in factories, mines and other industries. There will always need to be child labor laws and public education. Nations with the highest levels of per capita GDP, total GDP, economic freedom and well-being are almost all nations that offer state run compulsory school. At the end of the day, the data simply does not follow the thesis about interpersonal violence. One would have to argue that these nations succeed in spite of public education and nations lower in the index fail in spite of not having an education.

There is a problem there.

 

[Belz...]

And unless you're advocating some form of anarchy, that's nothing more than hyperbole irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Some people seem to forget that "the government" isn't some entity separate from the people, at least in a somewhat-democracy.

 

[Border Reiver]

And if parents don't jump through these hoops, cops will haul them into court. If they resist, that's a felony. If they resist effectively, police will shoot them. If a court orders them to send their kids to school, and they do not obey, that's a new crime: contempt of court. If they refuse to pay the fine for educational neglect, that's contempt of court. Cops will haul them into court. If they resist, that's a felony. If they resist effectively, cops will shoot them.

A law is a threat by a government to kidnap (arrest), assault (subdue), and forcibly infect with HIV (imprison) someone, under some specified circumstances.

So, if Hawaiian parents don't register their child for school, private school, or provide a plan for homeschooling they are guilty of a petty misdemeanor.

Petty misdemeanors have a maximum penalty of six months in jail or a fine of $1000.

Knowing the how the judicial process works (due to a public school education and practical experience) the first step would be a complaint that a child was not being educated. The complaint would be investigated, which in this case would mean that someone would first talk to the parents to find out if the child was registered at a public or private school, and if not to see if there was a homeschool plan in place. There would likely be an opportunity to correct the problem. Only if the parents had done none of that, and refused to correct the issue would they proceed to trial.

 

[RandFan]

I'm also troubled by your view of prison. The most recent data I could find indicate that only 0.5% of Hawaiian prisoners are HIV positive. Not that it is particularly relevant to your point, however it is indicative of how you balance data vs ideology.

kff.org/hivaids/state-indicator/inmates-with-hivaids-infection/

Inmates in Custody of State or Federal Prison Authorities with HIV or AIDS