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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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You see Wild horses, I do have a problem with Coulsdon and Sherlock's views. Not that I have a problem with either of them. I'm sure if we ever met we could hoist a pint at the pub and talk about Futbol.

My problem is the FOG of their opinions. This "I don't have any real evidence, but they must have done something for the nutjobs with the PLE to think they are guilty".

I'm thoroughly 100 percent convinced of their innocence. I can understand maybe thinking that speck of DNA on the bra clasp means something.

But nothing else. The rest is NONSENSE. Their behavior isn't probative or incriminating and really shouldn't even be brought up. It is reading tea leaves and some kind of psychic intuition which I'm sorry, is a bunch of cow chips.
Firstly, I’ll hold you to that pint regardless of your position.

Interesting, in airports, train stations and other locations throughout the US Homeland Security officer’s preferred hot beverage must be tea as they are trained to watch how people behave.
 
Firstly, I’ll hold you to that pint regardless of your position.

Interesting, in airports, train stations and other locations throughout the US Homeland Security officer’s preferred hot beverage must be tea as they are trained to watch how people behave.

That sounds fair to me. I really can't wait to get back to the UK and hoist a few and watch a few matches. That is one thing I really love about England. If you ever get to Seattle, stop in the George and Dragon, you'll feel right at home.

As for Homeland Security. I didn't know that. Are you sure? I'd bet that in Seattle it would be Starbucks and in Boston, I'm pretty sure that the only tea is in the harbor.

And me, well the only kind of tea I drink is of the Long Island variety.

:D
 
Bill, I'm not sure how to put this, but, who said anything about it having anything to do a murder? The discussion was only whether or not she acted 'strange'. Tesla did not think so, as well as few other PIP's while the rest of the known world kinda think she did.

And from what sources, exactly, did the "known world" (???) inform themselves about Amanda Knox's behaviour?

It was by reading the press.

And where did the hacks from which the "known world" informed themselves, inform themselves?

Geezus.

You ever had your IQ tested?
 
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No Sherlock you don't get it. There was NOTHING STRANGE about how she acted, only your interpretation of how she acted. Which is all about confirmation bias. She acted strangely because we already said she acted strangely.

Amanda was strange, in the sense that she was the only one there who barely spoke Italian. For everyone else at the cottage Italian was their native language. They had the group to hang on to. Amanda must have felt incredibly isolated and I am sure needed to hang on to the only thing she could for comfort and that was Raffaele. I certainly understand that. Can't you?

I'd go further;

the only thing "strange" is SH's and his cohorts' "interpretation of how she acted", and that they're still so attached to their own, er, 'perceptivity', after all these frikking years

Yeh, Sherlock, let's not bother with discussion of hard facts and evidence, or even circumstantial evidence, for that matter - let's talk about the "strangeness" of what's in your head.
 
That sounds fair to me. I really can't wait to get back to the UK and hoist a few and watch a few matches. That is one thing I really love about England. If you ever get to Seattle, stop in the George and Dragon, you'll feel right at home.

As for Homeland Security. I didn't know that. Are you sure? I'd bet that in Seattle it would be Starbucks and in Boston, I'm pretty sure that the only tea is in the harbor.

And me, well the only kind of tea I drink is of the Long Island variety.

:D
You of course get my point; post 9/11 observing people’s behaviour is not unusual and does not require tea leaves.

I visited Seattle many moons ago, went up to Harbour Pointe didn’t find folks up there particularly different though.

If you were to show a group of 20 somethings from the west coast photograph’s of fatalities involving children in a road traffic accident and did the same with a group from Italy do you think their responses would be markedly different?
 
Ok, I get it. You're John Follain.

John Follain wrote a whole book in this style. He wrote a book called, "A Death in Italy: The definitive account of the Amanda Knox case."

First of all it's not "The Amanda Knox case." I agree wholeheartedly with the Kerchers on this one.... and, BTW, with Amanda Knox herself. This is not about her - at the very least Raffaele Sollecito is in harm's way, too, and it is actually the case of a rather brutal murder of a true innocent in all this.

Second, and more to the point, Follain and you have the same style of argument. If John Follain expressed an opinion in his book his face would fall off. Yet he fills his paragraphs with all sorts of plausible deniabilities... not saying stuff, and when accused of saying something as part of a sub-text or underlying assumption can always fall back on, "Show me the quote where I said they were guilty?"

Well, he never does. He just puts little tidbits in. Behaviour is key to Follain. He never once says that the behaviour is suspicious, but that begs a HUGE question - why include it in the "definitive account" if it is, as Anglo says, equivalent to the colour of her toenail polish?

It's strange that anyone, you or Follain, would want to be so public with what you think is authoritative, the cops' case against Knox and Follain, and then reject that you think it's so authoritative when that's pointed out. The fact you've never once really answered a direct question - as Follain avoids making a personal statement at all costs - says buckets.... well, to me only, perhaps - and I an REALLY nobody in all this.

Is this an English thing?

I agree with Wildhorses latest on this.

Yet you simply won't answer - which is you complete right. What crime would you charge Amanda Knox with based on her behaviour?

But since you won't answer let me continue with my stream of consciousness about your alter ego, John Follain.

Follain, if you asked him over a pint, would say that Amanda Knox is stone cold guilty. Yet if you got him into a formal setting would say that the PLE had reasons to suspect her, mainly because of her behaviour. It would be up to whoever it was talking with Follain to remind him that Raffaele and Rudy were also similarly charged.

Then you read his book. Guilters regard the book as the definitive account of the case against Amanda Knox - also leaving one to wonder where Raffaele or Rudy fit into all this. Yet when you read the book, the guilter Bible, the book really has as its three great subtexts:

1) The PLE had reason to suspect Amanda Knox
2) The case against them fell apart at trial
3) The Kerchers and the British friends continue to feel bitter towards Amanda Knox​

That's it, really. For my money (and I paid full price for the book!) Follain actually argues FOR innocence. Yet he sprinkles in enough tidbits - one of which was out of nowhere commenting that Knox did not wear underwear in prison! - to either make you think that Amanda was a slut....

.... or that Follain was a dirty old man for even including the snippet. That one depends totally on your confirmation bias!

But if you accused Follain of implying she was a slut, he'd come back with a, "Show me where I said that," and then argue "IS" with you.

So, I will ask one more time, just to save my wearying soul more sidetracks into John Follain.

What crime would you charge Amanda Knox with based on her behaviour? Giobbi was very clear. For saying Ta-Da, for crying, and for eating pizza, he'd have her charged with murder. He was quite clear that he made this evaluation even before the forensics came in.

When you duck the question by saying.....



First of all, this was Napoleoni's first case as lead detective, second of all, other detectives were either trying to sexualize Knox at the Questura, or (and I'm talking of Chiacchiera here) were trying to steer Napoleoni away from arresting her for the behaviour and even the so-called confession!

What I am asking is - what crime would YOU have charged her with?

Please don't make me quote more Follain.....
Bill

Sorry you lost me just after calling me John Follain.
 
You of course get my point; post 9/11 observing people’s behaviour is not unusual and does not require tea leaves.

I visited Seattle many moons ago, went up to Harbour Pointe didn’t find folks up there particularly different though.

If you were to show a group of 20 somethings from the west coast photograph’s of fatalities involving children in a road traffic accident and did the same with a group from Italy do you think their responses would be markedly different?

Harbour Pointe? Did you play golf? I use to be a member of the Harbour Pointe Mens Club so I know it well. I live in Bothell, Harbour Pointe is in Mukilteo about 10 miles from my home.

As for your question, I don't know.

But I don't think Amanda was shown any photos of Meredith's dead body. And if she did, I don't think that in that moment she did anything strange. The only things I've heard pointed out was Amanda's behavior in the Questura's hallway or waiting room. Or out in the cottage parking lot. For example, the video of Amanda kissing Meredith. How long after the discovery of Meredith do you think that was taken? 5 hours later?

No matter how intense the moments when Meredith was discovered, the intensity level doesn't last forever.

Picking a few moments in a 5 day period and saying these moments were strange is selective interpretation that really demonstrates little or nothing.
 
You of course get my point; post 9/11 observing people’s behaviour is not unusual and does not require tea leaves.

I visited Seattle many moons ago, went up to Harbour Pointe didn’t find folks up there particularly different though.

If you were to show a group of 20 somethings from the west coast photograph’s of fatalities involving children in a road traffic accident and did the same with a group from Italy do you think their responses would be markedly different?

I thought it was strange, suspicious even, to see a guy only walking hurriedly away from the huge cloud of dust thrown up when one of the towers came down. I wondered why he wasn't running like crazy. I would have assumed he must have had a hand in it - except that everyone else was behaving exactly the same way.
 
not sure it would actually work

The point I am making is the difference in their reaction would have been noticed by any experienced homicide detective.
When the question was checked empirically, police were unimpressive in their ability to detect who was telling the truth and who was lying (a study was cited here long ago to that effect). They only thought that they had this ability. If the same is true of behavior in general, it does not bode well for their ability to solve cases by observing people's actions.
 
I know. But you have to give me some credit, though. I had twelve more similarities to go between you and Follain.... but I knew you'd not answer the question.

No big.
In all fairness neither are you, you appear to be spinning off into your very own Twilight Zone. If I may paraphrase Rod Sterlings monologue:

There is a Bill dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity, etc.
 
I think she's a polarizing personality, which is to say I agree that in some ways she acted strangely.

But I also think cultural and situational factors were at play. BIG generalization, but I'm of the opinion European young adults are more polite and aware of "proper" behavior than American young adults. Dempsey gives a good description of the first night at the Questura -- and I groaned at the cultural improprieties. It's not right, but any American high school teacher can tell you it's not unusual for an upset American youth to "act out" distress by shouting random obscenity-laced comments.

Situationally, it was bad luck she and Raff were one week into a heavy love affair. It colored their behavior and judgement.

Also, I think parents have a better understanding of Knox than the childless. Twenty-year-olds aren't perfect. Parents develop a tolerance for their excesses and foibles. Knox isn't "extremely narcissistic," but I do think, like many artsy kids, she's a tad more self-absorbed and self-dramatizing than average. It didn't play well under the circumstances... but I know dozens of West Coast young adults who would have behaved the same way.

She wasn't "having fun." She was upset and shell-shocked.

About attending the memorial: you might note that Filomena, Laura, AND Amanda were the only friends of Meredith who were homeless and without access to their possessions. Would you attend a memorial in dirty clothes?

What delayed retraction? There was no delayed retraction! Knox was clear from the get-go that she was confused and that her accusation was by no means reliable. She wanted to speak up about Lumumba at the first hearing, but her lawyer told her not to.

Are young people more relaxed and unaware of social norms in Seattle, I really can't say. Are you saying that hippy off spring and pot culture creates some kind of dreamy haze? As far as I'm aware the only difference is that people lead more active lives on the west coast. The slack that Amanda is cut here in the behavior department is frankly parental and protective. If my four year old wanted to play with his cars during a funeral he wouldn't get the chance. Empathy and good behavior should be taught early. If not, you could grow up and never care that strumming one cord over and over on your guitar could possibly annoy all present.
 
I thought it was strange, suspicious even, to see a guy only walking hurriedly away from the huge cloud of dust thrown up when one of the towers came down. I wondered why he wasn't running like crazy. I would have assumed he must have had a hand in it - except that everyone else was behaving exactly the same way.
What this guy you are referring to flew one of the planes into the twin towers?
 
When the question was checked empirically, police were unimpressive in their ability to detect who was telling the truth and who was lying (a study was cited here long ago to that effect). They only thought that they had this ability. If the same is true of behavior in general, it does not bode well for their ability to solve cases by observing people's actions.
You could be right, but as I indicated post 9/11 using US Homeland Security as one example observing people’s behaviour is used, although I accept that is dependent on the individual, her or his training and their experience.
 
Are young people more relaxed and unaware of social norms in Seattle, I really can't say. Are you saying that hippy off spring and pot culture creates some kind of dreamy haze? As far as I'm aware the only difference is that people lead more active lives on the west coast. The slack that Amanda is cut here in the behavior department is frankly parental and protective. If my four year old wanted to play with his cars during a funeral he wouldn't get the chance. Empathy and good behavior should be taught early. If not, you could grow up and never care that strumming one cord over and over on your guitar could possibly annoy all present.

While I'm glad that you try and teach your children how to behave during a funeral. Not that I would take my child of 4 to a funeral. Would you really do that or get a sitter? Amanda wasn't at a funeral. Ever been to a wake Briars? I've been to more than a few. And frankly, a couple of them were pretty wild parties.

BTW, I don't think Seattle has this big pot culture. Yes we are one of the first states to legalize marijuana but other than at hempfest, you don't see people just lighting up every where and anywhere.
 
Well, I think everyone will have got the jist by now.

Five-and-a-half years after the murder of Meredith Kercher, and c. three-and-a-half years after a discussion was started at JREF , a lone ranger guilter is still haunting the place, trying to convince all and sundry that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito MUST have been involved in it.

The reasoning? Well, there isn't any - it's simply because the dumb, un-caring, self-serving Italian authorities told the dumb, un-caring, self-serving press, who told their dumb "readership" that Amanda and Raff didn't "act normal".
 
You could be right, but as I indicated post 9/11 using US Homeland Security as one example observing people’s behaviour is used, although I accept that is dependent on the individual, her or his training and their experience.

Yes Homeland Security tries..emphasize tries to take visual clues of people waiting in lines to determine who to frisk...but that is about all. They don't use those clues to prosecute anyone.
 
Not sure whether your post is responding to what I wrote, please re-read or better still correct me if other student friends or acquaintances of Meredith’s didn’t attend the memorial.

According to Amanda's book, at least a couple of the English girls had already left Italy by that time. Amanda had been advised by the police not to talk about the murder, but was being asked by classmates about it and was already being mentioned in the press. That was what caused her to hesitate about going to a public (and publicized) memorial. As it turned out, Raffaele had something else to do that night, and Amanda wrote that she would not have considered going alone. She also wrote that it never crossed her mind that her absence would later be used as evidence against her.

I don't know about Filomena and Laura, but the fact that they had day jobs is irrelevant because the memorial was at night.
 
no filters, please

There is no excuse for a 20 year old to giggle joke and kiss at the questura, She made everyone uncomfortable . You could argue that she is innocent an extreme narcissistic and cared more about not having the murder interfer with her fun . To argue that her behavior including her delayed retraction of her accusation against Lumumba was normal doesn't work.
Briars,

She made a complete retraction within 36 hours, and she had indicated her confusion even before that. Your argument about Amanda's being extremely narcissistic is unadorned with facts, and there is evidence which runs contrary to it. Nor does it have anything to do with a "delayed retraction," even if that were factually correct.

Much of the discussion about Amanda's behavior has struck me as being selective and filtered. For example, Raffaele pulled her into his lap because she was pacing. With respect to crying, the British girls acknowledged that not all of them cried at the station, IIRC. Based on trial testimony, Amanda cried at other times, such as in the car (with Paola, IIRC). Speaking only for myself (and not because I want to earn another Maserati from the PR campaign), I would like to see a tape of everyone's behavior at the station. If I did and Amanda's behavior struck me as strange, I would say so. Yet I don't like to work solely from accounts that are filtered through people with strong biases, such as Sophie Purton.
 
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According to Amanda's book, at least a couple of the English girls had already left Italy by that time. Amanda had been advised by the police not to talk about the murder, but was being asked by classmates about it and was already being mentioned in the press. That was what caused her to hesitate about going to a public (and publicized) memorial. As it turned out, Raffaele had something else to do that night, and Amanda wrote that she would not have considered going alone. She also wrote that it never crossed her mind that her absence would later be used as evidence against her.

I don't know about Filomena and Laura, but the fact that they had day jobs is irrelevant because the memorial was at night.
Mary_H

Thanks for the additional information, I accept that the memorial was a night as I vaguely recall it being described as a candle light vigil.
 
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