Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[RWVBWL]

Forget the sex smears. The real crime is that Foxy Knoxy was EVER charged with murder

I can not believe what I have just read!


1st though,
I gotta thank someone for the help:

You just have to use the .org version of the web address. The .com version has a problem.

Hi Bill Williams,
Thanks for the info,
I tried earlier to read up at IIP, saw it was down,
moved onward + checked in here a moment ago.

So guess what?

I went back to IIP, did as you suggested,
found a recent link to an article in an English paper, The Daily Mail,
which I could not believe when reading!

Here's a quote:

In truth, what’s astonishing is that Knox ever stood trial.

Here's a link in case anyone missed this article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...eal-crime-Foxy-Knoxy-EVER-charged-murder.html


Simply amazing to read after all the hatred over the years.
WOW...

 

[acbytesla]

You just have to use the .org version of the web address. The .com version has a problem.

Thanks Bill, There is a DNS problem with the .com. Thanks.

 

[RandyN]

Moi aussi.

I've posted many times here that early 2000's Canadian study of wrongful convictions, a study which precedes the horrible Kercher murder, and if that was the only thing you ever read about the Canadian legal system, you'd want to avoid Canada like the plague.

It also answers the many questions that well meaning skeptics might ask, like, "You're implying that the whole system is corrupt, or that everyone is part of the conspiracy!"

These things very seldom work like a Don Brown mystery. It is usually one person up the chain trusting that the person below them on the chain has done their work right, and they sign off on it. Institutional loyalty and group think are powerful subtexts.... yes, even in Canada.

It's the very reason we have the safeguards of innocent until proven guilty and the right to a lawyer, and the right to have confessions videotaped.

Debra Milke in Arizona had her "confession" written down longhand by a cop, three days after she was supposed to have confessed it, and has ALWAYS denied she ever made it. Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, Patrick Lumumba and Rudy Guede were all denied lawyers and videotaping at interrogation, and for some reason that bothers guilters not one whit. If either of Sollecito OR Knox had had lawyers, as required by Italian law (unless we accept Machiavelli's legal definition of a "weak suspect" not requiring one) then none of us would know each other; the Kerchers would have had their answer in 2010 and would have been able to pick up the pieces of living and NO ONE would have ever heard of Amanda Knox.

The Italians may have a more damaged system than, say, Canada, but we could all start posting on the "Canada's justice system sucks!" website and find plenty to talk about.

Forget guilters...they are as irrelevant as we who believe that the prosecution has failed to make a case for guilt. But as I contend...the dumb &$%'ing cows (better?) of the typical Italian citizen seems unconcerned or blind or STUPID! Certainly there must be intelligent beings who see the crazy coincidental strange circumstances with the so called evidence of this case. Its like a friking Pulp Fiction story only one so wildly conceived as to be preposterous...far beyond even pulp fiction standards and yet I hear crickets as far as the Italian people are concerned.

If there are honest smart Italians then where are they? Why is no one concerned about what has to be so
glaringly obvious? Is Hellmann the only honest Italian? He asks who will give the task of convicting innocent persons without evidence of any kind. Indeed. This is not that tough and not even close. This is corrupt stupidity. And if the typical Italian is content with this behavior of their democratic officials then that means what?

THEY ARE STUPID F'n cows. If the people remain silent in spite of such glaring abuse and corruption then they must be satisfied and therefore complicit in the corruption. That defines them as stupid, corrupt cows. You are free to disagree.

I am waiting to hear some Italian besides Hellmann who understands how preposterous this case is and has been. Exactly...how is the burden upon the defendants to prove their own innocence? Absurd! Cows are dumb animals...the typical Italian who follows this case are cows apparently. This case is not even close! This case is absurd. Perhaps it is mad cow disease. My opinion stands. YMMV.

 

[Mary_H]

Mary_H

For a few brief moments, alas it was not meant to be; I will of course bravely struggle with my sense of utter rejection!

Seriously though, your position is consistent with the majority of posters here which appears to be the trial next month will be nothing more than a show trial with a preordained guilty verdict.

As for the ongoing discussion here and elsewhere of the evidence I have never been able to reconcile posts going back as far as Candace Dempsey SeattlePI blog with what actually happened in court and that does include the tactics of both defence teams, I guess with the exception of the H & Z trial you might agree.

Enlight of the general view here of the forth coming trial it is interesting that people want to discuss the evidence.

We must have SOMETHING else in common, Coulsdon -- you and I go all the way to the examiner together, don't we? Whatever happened to colonelhall, I wonder.

I am not entirely of the opinion the upcoming trial will be all for show. I have an expectation, however ill-informed, that the Florence court will want to show its worldliness and sophistication by finding for the defendants. Whether the next Court of Cassation agrees, I don't know. It depends on what happens in the Court of Public Opinion in the next three years or so, I think.

It's a little hard to get a grip on things if you don't discuss the evidence.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>I went back to IIP, did as you suggested,
found a recent link to an article in an English paper, The Daily Mail,
which I could not believe when reading!

Simply amazing to read after all the hatred over the years.
WOW...

I know, RW! When I saw that, I said I felt like we had already won the appeal.

 

[Bill Williams]

Here's a link in case anyone missed this article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...eal-crime-Foxy-Knoxy-EVER-charged-murder.html


Simply amazing to read after all the hatred over the years.
WOW...

I almost fell over. If the tabloids are turning, then (and this is only my vain hope) then the world in which John Kercher works may be influencing him and the Kercher's too. My hope anyways.

For me, this is a continuation of Piers Morgan from CNN, a friend of of John Kercher's expressing disgust that the ISC would return to the "sex game gone wrong" motive. Morgan saw it as an insult and slight to Meredith and the Kercher's in general.

My hope is that this is true and that the Kerchers have figured out what is what with the Perugians. They entrusted justice to the PLE and they've been failed miserably.

 

[RandyN]

I can not believe what I have just read!


1st though,
I gotta thank someone for the help:



Hi Bill Williams,
Thanks for the info,
I tried earlier to read up at IIP, saw it was down,
moved onward + checked in here a moment ago.

So guess what?

I went back to IIP, did as you suggested,
found a recent link to an article in an English paper, The Daily Mail,
which I could not believe when reading!

Here's a quote:



Here's a link in case anyone missed this article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...eal-crime-Foxy-Knoxy-EVER-charged-murder.html


Simply amazing to read after all the hatred over the years.
WOW...

Is Mail Online = Daily Mail? I don't recognize the author. I see he wrote a book. I read the article...he gets most of the facts wrong even though he ends up with the correct conclusion. He aint no Nick Pisa...(solely for the snarky AH who thinks UK English is the only English...)Truth is if you study language then English is barely comprehensible, totally illogical and quite difficult as a second language...we drive on a parkway and park on driveway...and there are thousands of examples of just such insanity...Brit or USA.

 

[Antony]

I am not entirely of the opinion the upcoming trial will be all for show. I have an expectation, however ill-informed, that the Florence court will want to show its worldliness and sophistication by finding for the defendants.

Yes, that's my feeling as well - although whether it will turn out to be wishful thinking is not something that can be guessed at this stage. I don't think it's necessarily a done deal either way. It's even conceivable that the next court could bring charges against the prosecution for the obstruction of justice that Hellman was so tolerant of.

If the Florence court sets out to re-convict, it will have a harder job than Massei. There is more evidence in the public domain, and presumably the defence can call on all of the facts brought out by Conti and Vecchiotti etc.

Whether the next Court of Cassation agrees, I don't know.

The SC made its decision in ignorance. Self-chosen ignorance, admittedly, but another "not guilty" verdict will also give them a more difficult task next time round, if they are determined to keep the case open.

It depends on what happens in the Court of Public Opinion in the next three years or so, I think.

Yes, and there is still scope for the scandal to grow, even in Italy.

 

[Bill Williams]

The SC made its decision in ignorance. Self-chosen ignorance, admittedly, but another "not guilty" verdict will also give them a more difficult task next time round, if they are determined to keep the case open.


Yes, and there is still scope for the scandal to grow, even in Italy.

Contrary to what the guilters or Barbie Nadeau will have you believe, the US press is not of one mind about this.

On the one hand are people like Jeffery Tobin and Anderson Cooper and Diane Sawyer who seem to be able to sort this out.

On the other hand there is Katie Couric and Chris Cuomo who seem stuck on "Amanda's behaviour," as if the pre-arrest behaviour had anything to do with the crime. I still can see Katie Couric with Raffaele right in front of her, virtually ignoring him and continually saying, "Yes, but what about all of Amanda's strange behaviour?"

For my money, and I can only hope that the likes of Couric and Cuomo can see if for what it is, the "behaviour" line of questioning goes nowhere. What it reveals is a 20-something out of her culture and element, dealing with a completely unprecedented experience - the murder of a friend - not knowing how you're supposed to act!

That's what is solving this horrid crime? I cannot believe that even Couric and Cuomo can keep those balls in the air too long.

I am not sure how influenced the Florence court will be by American reaction. If they were, that is a bit of a scandal in and of itself. Won't ANYONE in Italy take a look at the evidence, or lack of same, and come to a decision based on THAT?

Why does Oggi have to do the court's work for it?

 

[acbytesla]

Contrary to what the guilters or Barbie Nadeau will have you believe, the US press is not of one mind about this.

On the one hand are people like Jeffery Tobin and Anderson Cooper and Diane Sawyer who seem to be able to sort this out.

On the other hand there is Katie Couric and Chris Cuomo who seem stuck on "Amanda's behaviour," as if the pre-arrest behaviour had anything to do with the crime. I still can see Katie Couric with Raffaele right in front of her, virtually ignoring him and continually saying, "Yes, but what about all of Amanda's strange behaviour?"

For my money, and I can only hope that the likes of Couric and Cuomo can see if for what it is, the "behaviour" line of questioning goes nowhere. What it reveals is a 20-something out of her culture and element, dealing with a completely unprecedented experience - the murder of a friend - not knowing how you're supposed to act!

That's what is solving this horrid crime? I cannot believe that even Couric and Cuomo can keep those balls in the air too long.

I am not sure how influenced the Florence court will be by American reaction. If they were, that is a bit of a scandal in and of itself. Won't ANYONE in Italy take a look at the evidence, or lack of same, and come to a decision based on THAT?

Why does Oggi have to do the court's work for it?

The whole argument about Amanda's behavior being strange is beyond absurd. I have yet to read a single action by Amanda or Raffaele that I would find strange. Not one, not even Amanda doing the splits. She was a young athletic intelligent 20 year old with lots of energy. Fidgeting and working off that energy is NOT strange in the least bit. Taking the shower was not strange, buying underwear is not strange. Going "tada" while may be inappropriate,it was not strange.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

The whole argument about Amanda's behavior being strange is beyond absurd. I have yet to read a single action by Amanda or Raffaele that I would find strange. Not one, not even Amanda doing the splits. She was a young athletic intelligent 20 year old with lots of energy. Fidgeting and working off that energy is NOT strange in the least bit. Taking the shower was not strange, buying underwear is not strange. Going "tada" while may be inappropriate,it was not strange.

That's right, and sitting on Raff's lap, making faces and sticking tongues out at one another while everyone around is grieving and in tears, not strange at all, it's just Amanda being Amanda.

 

[Dan O.]

That's right, and sitting on Raff's lap, making faces and sticking tongues out at one another while everyone around is grieving and in tears, not strange at all, it's just Amanda being Amanda.

Can you offer any evidence at all that this is not the case? Or is that just Sherlock being his factually irrelevant self.

 

[RoseMontague]

That's right, and sitting on Raff's lap, making faces and sticking tongues out at one another while everyone around is grieving and in tears, not strange at all, it's just Amanda being Amanda.

Yes everyone around them grieving and in tears, and hiring lawyers or making plane reservations to get out of Dodge. Everybody is different. Of course if you are a murderer I guess you would want to appear as grieving and in tears, especially in front of the cops. Hmmmm.

 

[acbytesla]

That's right, and sitting on Raff's lap, making faces and sticking tongues out at one another while everyone around is grieving and in tears, not strange at all, it's just Amanda being Amanda.

First off, I don't think I believe every tale that keeps being exaggerated.

I'm not sure this is all that strange either. I've been around a lot of death in my life. When my mother passed away, when my father passed away, when my uncle passed away and countless friends as well. Crying may be normal, but so is laughing. There is only so much you can do when someone dies and it all feels surreal. And I bet when you lose a new friend, it is really strange. After a month, how attached do you get to another person? What is normal is to run the gamut of emotions.

When my mother passed away, I played golf the very next day. It sure beats the hell out of sitting Shiva. But on the other hand, I'm Irish and I think the best way to deal with death is to have a wake. One big party to celebrate someone's life.

Maybe Emily Post wouldn't approve of this behavior, but I'm not sure anyone goes by Emily Post any more anyway.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes everyone around them grieving and in tears, and hiring lawyers or making plane reservations to get out of Dodge. Everybody is different. Of course if you are a murderer I guess you would want to appear as grieving and in tears, especially in front of the cops. Hmmmm.

Precisely, Everything they are saying about Amanda and Raffaele while it might seem a little insensitive, it certainly doesn't sound suspicious. Yes, If I had committed a murder, I think I would be putting on a show of "how concerned" I was. I'd be acting all appropriate and would have been all melancholy, always showing a few quiet tears.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Hilarious, I'll tell you guys the thing I personally find the 'strangest'. About a half hour before Meredith's door is kicked in, Saint Amanda, knocks on Meredith's door and calls her name, with no reply, she knocks harder and harder, calling out louder and louder until she is screaming, 'MEREDITH', she runs outside to see if she can walk along the ledge and see in Meredith's window, bad angle, Raff tries his darnest to kick down Meredith's door, if only he had kept up with his kickboxing and the door wasn't made out of a titanium alloy. Then, a half hour later, when superman jr kicks open the door, Amanda and Raff are in the kitchen, having already done her part......

 

[Bill Williams]

That's right, and sitting on Raff's lap, making faces and sticking tongues out at one another while everyone around is grieving and in tears, not strange at all, it's just Amanda being Amanda.

So? So what if it is Amanda being Amanda? Even you, SH, do not believe she killed anyone.

You see, the issue ISN'T that this behaviour is a sign of her killing anyone, the issue is that the PLE is saying that she purposely duped them into a premature "case closed" that involved Patrick Lumumba. The PLE is saying that all the weird behaviour was purposeful, to throw them off suspecting either her of Raffaele.

The PLE said they solved this case by simply observing behaviour, before any of the forensics were in. Once the forensics were in the case had to be reopened, and then blamed on Knox for the reopening.

Sorry for picking on you with this. But aside from Katie Couric and Chris Cuomo, who in their right mind thinks that Knox's behaviour good, bad or indifferent means anything?

Unless you take the brief kiss outside the cottage, put it on an infinite loop and suggest that Knox and Sollecito's response to a horrible murder was immediate tonsil-hockey? What possible agenda does it serve to focus on behaviour?

 

[Bill Williams]

Hilarious, I'll tell you guys the thing I personally find the 'strangest'. About a half hour before Meredith's door is kicked in, Saint Amanda, knocks on Meredith's door and calls her name, with no reply, she knocks harder and harder, calling out louder and louder until she is screaming, 'MEREDITH', she runs outside to see if she can walk along the ledge and see in Meredith's window, bad angle, Raff tries his darnest to kick down Meredith's door, if only he had kept up with his kickboxing and the door wasn't made out of a titanium alloy. Then, a half hour later, when superman jr kicks open the door, Amanda and Raff are in the kitchen, having already done her part......

What I find strange is the need to inflame the argument with ad hominems. Who has ever called Amanda Knox, "Saint Amanda"?

Argument weak. Pound pulpit.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

What I find strange is the need to inflame the argument with ad hominems. Who has ever called Amanda Knox, "Saint Amanda"?

Argument weak. Pound pulpit.

That is because you seemed to have missed the most important word, 'Hilarious', Literally, I was laughing out loud as I wrote this. Trust me, it fits.

 

[Bill Williams]

That is because you seemed to have missed the most important word, 'Hilarious', Literally, I was laughing out loud as I wrote this. Trust me, it fits.

I may have. What we have here, then, is a failure to communicate. I seriously do not get the post at all!