Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Antony]

What is the context that everyone apart from me is aware of?

By "context" I meant that the Massei trial concluded guilt, the Hellman trial concluded innocence, and the SC appeal cancelled Hellman and ordered a re-trial. Your comments have provided little in the way of information or insight that isn't in that summary - which, as I pointed out, everyone is aware of.

What is your opinion of prosecutions appeal from a legal stand point?

It was invalid, based as it was on re-hashing the evidence rather than the procedural or legal conduct of the Hellman trial.

Maybe you can quote the appropriate post number, I may have missed your previous comments.



Sometimes I have to check whether I have inadvertently registered on Injustice Anywhere, I prefer JREF as it has no position either way with this case.

Well of course JREF itself doesn't hold a position. If you are referring to the preponderance of PI opinion here, then that is because the PGP have essentially opted out of the discussion, which in turn is because they have no facts on their side. They prefer forums where PI opinion is banned, or where they can intimidate those who disagree with them by abusive posts or other behaviour that is not permitted here.

By all means continue to waste your own time complaining about me or contribute to the wider discussion as you say, your choice.

I will post as I see fit. Just don't expect me to go easy on you when you make unsupportable assertions like, "the Hellman-Zanetti report was of a poor legal standard".

 

[Bill Williams]

Well of course JREF itself doesn't hold a position. If you are referring to the preponderance of PI opinion here, then that is because the PGP have essentially opted out of the discussion, which in turn is because they have no facts on their side. They prefer forums where PI opinion is banned, or where they can intimidate those who disagree with them by abusive posts or other behaviour that is not permitted here.

JREF is a completely open forum, which does have a hairtrigger for flamewars breaking out, and taunting/silly posts.

IIP/IA allows pretty much anything - the only time I have seen someone banned is for continual homophobic posts; which had nothing to do with this case.

My big surprise is that as long as the Italian judiciary was on their side, PGP pretty much owned conversation here.... because the fall back position was always, "well, the judges have already decided that one." Appeals to reason or evidence always were trumped with something akin to, "Well you can have your opinion, but the Massei court found the two guilty!"

In my opinion, the first reversal on that happened with the release/translation of the Massei motivations report in early 2010. The simply appeal to judicial authority was no longer not enough..... we say that Massei agreed with no mixed blood, no motive, the fact that Amanda and Meredith had essentially a normal relationship. Massei, the convicting judge, didn't fall for most of the "let's vilify Knox at all costs" strategy of Mignini at trial. Massei actually heard the parade of witnesses Mignini called to slander Knox, say something different. Like Meredith's boyfriend who said the two got on great, or on of the flatmates that said the tension revolved around house cleanliness and racing stripes in the toilet bowl.

The PGP all but disappeared with the Hellmann verdict.

The BIG surprise for me is that no one, really has returned with the quashing of the acquittals. For my money it is because the body of actual evidence is, well, the body of evidence. There's NO trace of Knox in the murder room, and the new Florence prosecutor is now going to have to contend with the old prosecutor, Mignini, admitted that Knox may not have even been in the room.

For pity's sake - the friggin' prosecutor is now admitting it!

Every once in a while someone shows up here in a drive-by post to say, "You little sweetheart darling is going to jail!" Then they don't post again. Or someone comes and posts all sorts of trivialities like - did Knox or didn't she call her mom in the middle of the night? Did the footprint align or didn't it with Meredith's door?

ANYTHING except offer a comprehensive theory/timeline that fits AK and RS into this ugly crime.

My own early attempt to actually argue evidence on one of the hate sites ended up getting me banned after 7 posts. I was going on about how the break-in, whether stages or not, was still eminently doable. It wasn't just that I was called an idiot or a boot-licking FOA, I was banned for having an opinion!

The project of the PGP vs. the project of PIP is clear. The former revels in name-calling and photoshopping images of Amanda Knox or anyone who supports her, and the PGP discuss evidence. That might sound like a biased view, but that's the way I see it.

For me, CoulsdonUK is not really a PGP. He came here wanting Meredith's memory not to be trampled upon. Fair enough. And yes, he does simply things into the bare bones.... for my tastes, too much. He seems particularly resistant to anything beyond that.

Fair enough. So far he hasn't called me a name or insisted I be banned.

 

[Bill Williams]

cuki777's posts are case in point. The door is closed. The door is open. The door is ajar.

And what are we supposed to conclude from this? The meme I have heard before is that this varying statement about the condition of Filomena's door shows Raffaele to be a liar, trying to manipulate people's perceptions of the crimescene.

The Machine even posted ten lies Raffaele was supposed to have told. None of which are necessarily "lies", especially when isolated in interrogation and being at the mercy of factoids the cops are feeding him.

But getting back to "where are all the guilters who used to hold sway here?", the post above is case in point. It's essentially meaningless. It could mean that prior to discovering the horrible murder, no one really was paying much attention to Filomena's door, and now - post-discover - all of a sudden the slightest variation of story becomes liar liar.

Conversely, a story that doesn't change points to collusion.

It's the ultimate of confirmation bias. It's like reading John Follain's, "A Death in Italy," where the subtext of almost every line he writes is, "She did it." And the strange thing is that if you strip out the sub-text from Follain's book, he pretty much convinces the reader that neither Knox nor Sollecito did this thing - but that Mignini, Comodi, The Kerchers, the British friends and Maresca are all convinced she did.

Why? Well - if Follain expressed an opinion in the book his face would fall off. Rather than expressing an opinion he lets his brilliant subtexts do the talk. Example #1 of that is when Follain has postal policeman Battistelli say about Filomena's room, "This is no burglary," Follain inserts a line: Amanda and Raffaele say nothing.

The subtext? Amanda and Raffaele know why it's no burglary.

Same with cuki777. Put the factoid out there like Rudy's turd in the toilet and let it percolate. See if the smell sticks.

 

[Antony]

The project of the PGP vs. the project of PIP is clear. The former revels in name-calling and photoshopping images of Amanda Knox or anyone who supports her, and the PGP PIP discuss evidence.

FTFY. That is what you meant, isn't it?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I don’t know, over the years I seen evidence of folks from both side of this case intimidate and or bullying, it’s always accusation and counter accusation!

 

[Bill Williams]

The project of the PGP vs. the project of PIP is clear. The former revels in name-calling and photoshopping images of Amanda Knox or anyone who supports her, and the PGP PIP discuss evidence.

FTFY. That is what you meant, isn't it?

Oooops. David Marriott docks the pay of people who make mistakes like that! What good is a well financed PR campaign when posters get lazy like this.

Must be some hidden psychological give-away. I'd put in for a vacation, but that cheapskate Marriott doesn't pay for holidays.

I don't think, though, that it is only PIP who discuss evidence. I ran across "McCall's" wiki about the case - his version of "the evidence" includes a simple statement - Raffaele's DNA was on the bra-clasp. Period.

Trouble is, there's NO mention of Stefanoni withholding the EDF's, even aginst a court order to give them to the defence. There's NO mention that Massei said that someone would have to prove contamination before he'd dare besmirch the reputation of a professional like Stefanoni.

Strange. True professionals do not fear peer review, and would want the whole world to be able to test and see their anti-contamination protocols. Stefanoni? All she said was her claim that she'd never had contamination, period.

It's like a hockey goalie bragging he'd never let in a goal.

 

[Bill Williams]

I don’t know, over the years I seen evidence of folks from both side of this case intimidate and or bullying, it’s always accusation and counter accusation!

............................................ and?

 

[Antony]

Oooops. David Marriott docks the pay of people who make mistakes like that!

Still time to click the "edit" key.

 

[Antony]

I don’t know, over the years I seen evidence of folks from both side of this case intimidate and or bullying, it’s always accusation and counter accusation!

The point I was making is that verbal abuse and intimidation will get you the boot in JREF. That's not the case in the PGP hate-sites.

As for it being on "both sides of the case", I have seen some occurrences on news comment sections of PIP giving as good as they get on that score, but generally it's a distraction from the facts of the case, which of course plays into the hands of the PGP.

 

[Dan O.]

I don’t know, over the years I seen evidence of folks from both side of this case intimidate and or bullying, it’s always accusation and counter accusation!

Would you rather talk about the evidence?

 

[acbytesla]

I don’t know, over the years I seen evidence of folks from both side of this case intimidate and or bullying, it’s always accusation and counter accusation!

I've been called a lot of names by the guilters. Just yesterday a guy by the handle Phineas T Prune said I was a little man with a tiny penis. He said I was a paid shill and that I should be ashamed of myself.

But I could care less, because I've always gone by the motto you can call me anything you want as long as you don't call me late for dinner.

I don't know Amanda, I don't know Raffaele. I really could care less about either of these two as individuals. But I do know this. That neither of them could have had anything to do with this crime and that this prosecution is a joke.

That the Italian authorities should be ashamed of themselves, just as they should be ashamed of convicting scientists for failing to predict an earthquake. Is this the worst of Italian justice? Probably not, but Amanda is an American. And we look after our own.

I refuse to allow Amanda to be a victim of this persecution. It is wrong and it should end.

 

[JREF2010]

cuki777's posts are case in point. The door is closed. The door is open. The door is ajar.

And what are we supposed to conclude from this? The meme I have heard before is that this varying statement about the condition of Filomena's door shows Raffaele to be a liar, trying to manipulate people's perceptions of the crimescene.

The Machine even posted ten lies Raffaele was supposed to have told. None of which are necessarily "lies", especially when isolated in interrogation and being at the mercy of factoids the cops are feeding him.

But getting back to "where are all the guilters who used to hold sway here?", the post above is case in point. It's essentially meaningless. It could mean that prior to discovering the horrible murder, no one really was paying much attention to Filomena's door, and now - post-discover - all of a sudden the slightest variation of story becomes liar liar.

Conversely, a story that doesn't change points to collusion.

It's the ultimate of confirmation bias. It's like reading John Follain's, "A Death in Italy," where the subtext of almost every line he writes is, "She did it." And the strange thing is that if you strip out the sub-text from Follain's book, he pretty much convinces the reader that neither Knox nor Sollecito did this thing - but that Mignini, Comodi, The Kerchers, the British friends and Maresca are all convinced she did.

Why? Well - if Follain expressed an opinion in the book his face would fall off. Rather than expressing an opinion he lets his brilliant subtexts do the talk. Example #1 of that is when Follain has postal policeman Battistelli say about Filomena's room, "This is no burglary," Follain inserts a line: Amanda and Raffaele say nothing.

The subtext? Amanda and Raffaele know why it's no burglary.

Same with cuki777. Put the factoid out there like Rudy's turd in the toilet and let it percolate. See if the smell sticks.

How can the defense defend against 50000 fictional scenarios?

example- Italian Court System Burden of proof to the Defense

Prosecution Fictional response- this huge Kitchen Knife is the murder weapon and Amanda was the attacker in a sex orgy around Halloween, probably satanic ritual

Defense Scientific Fact- The kitchen knife is proven not to have made the cuts to Merediths neck, the knife blade is too large = therefore the kitchen knife is not the murder weapon.

Prosecution Fictional response: "oh there must have been two knives!"

Defense scientific response-

 

[JREF2010]

CoulsdonUK,

"The outcome of this assessment will be crucial not only to osmotically demonstrate the presence of the two defendants in the locus delicti commissi, but possibly to delineate the subjective position of the co-conspirators of Guede, in the face of the range of hypothetical situations..." Maybe you missed it the first time I posted it. The fact that the ISC refers to AK and RS as co-conspirators is extremely troubling. MOO.

its disturbing they are forcing this trial to the Fast Track trial, and not the other way around.

 

[RandyN]

Would you rather talk about the evidence?

Of course he doesn't want to talk about evidence. Just like the typical guilter mentality. Heck typical Italian prosecutor, SC, what have you. They refuse to address the facts of the case. In the SC case they are required to examine the procedures of the court but they decide to make up facts...and not just make them up but overturn a legitimate courts decision based on wild fact-less speculation.

Truthfully this is the only site where any opinion is welcome and the poster is safe from biased attacks. His opinion is free to be attacked which is a good thing.

The PGP have all gone because they understand there is no real evidence. Plus they realize the meager pieces such as single LTN non-repeatable DNA tests which are not just scientifically invalid but they are highly suspicious in every way. From collection to chain of custody to mishandling, to missing data files to destroyed samples thus rendering a re-test impossible. Add missing control runs and the data from those plus failure to capture any reference control samples and the "facts" against the innocent kids are transparent as in ghost like...as in impossible.

The only thing propping this case up still is corruption. Corruption all thru the system right up to the highest levels. Shameful lying people who make the most absurd accusations all without any facts to back up their preposterous assertions...and the sad truth is that no one seems willing to call them out on the carpet for this corrupt behavior.

You have cops being caught fixing the bosses case and ???? Nothing. You have unusual evidence handling and no investigation as to how 4 hard drives are destroyed, how the critical interrogations seem to have all been forgotten to be recorded or even noted. Trust them they demand. Why? They have shown themselves to be completely untrustworthy. From Toto to Quintinvale to Nara...the Super Witnesses.

The courts ignore official corruption and lies in court under oath. Did Stefanoni forget that her sample size was "too low" or did she lie and say it was several hundred picograms? She forgot her notes? Really? And the electronic data files...why so secret? And Comodi and Stefanoni promise the controal data sheets are in the court record but yet when given the chance they fail to produce these records. Just like the order Mignini said he signed to deny lawyers to the defendants (why again?) Where is this order so that we can examine it in court and question him about the need for such measures. Or was it simply corrupt behavior by officials to deny the rights of the wrongly accused?

But we are dealing with stupid people here. We have to be. Who charges scientists for failing to predict an earthquake? Stupid people I would have to say. Who runs a Cruise ship into charted rocks and trips and falls into a lifeboat (with his girlfriend) meanwhile innocent people are drowning? Stupid people. Who sit on the SC and decides to overturn a case because the judge did not properly consider the sex orgy gone wrong theory even though there is not one piece of evidence or fact in the record to prove that ever happened? Stupid stupid people. In the latter case the leader of the SC happens to be a "Truther"...yep he thinks the USA blew up the twin towers...the head stupid person.

Italians must be inherently dishonest...and or else massively stupid. The facts seem irrefutable. Dumb cows.

 

[acbytesla]

Of course he doesn't want to talk about evidence. Just like the typical guilter mentality. Heck typical Italian prosecutor, SC, what have you. They refuse to address the facts of the case. In the SC case they are required to examine the procedures of the court but they decide to make up facts...and not just make them up but overturn a legitimate courts decision based on wild fact-less speculation.

Truthfully this is the only site where any opinion is welcome and the poster is safe from biased attacks. His opinion is free to be attacked which is a good thing.

The PGP have all gone because they understand there is no real evidence. Plus they realize the meager pieces such as single LTN non-repeatable DNA tests which are not just scientifically invalid but they are highly suspicious in every way. From collection to chain of custody to mishandling, to missing data files to destroyed samples thus rendering a re-test impossible. Add missing control runs and the data from those plus failure to capture any reference control samples and the "facts" against the innocent kids are transparent as in ghost like...as in impossible.

The only thing propping this case up still is corruption. Corruption all thru the system right up to the highest levels. Shameful lying people who make the most absurd accusations all without any facts to back up their preposterous assertions...and the sad truth is that no one seems willing to call them out on the carpet for this corrupt behavior.

You have cops being caught fixing the bosses case and ???? Nothing. You have unusual evidence handling and no investigation as to how 4 hard drives are destroyed, how the critical interrogations seem to have all been forgotten to be recorded or even noted. Trust them they demand. Why? They have shown themselves to be completely untrustworthy. From Toto to Quintinvale to Nara...the Super Witnesses.

The courts ignore official corruption and lies in court under oath. Did Stefanoni forget that her sample size was "too low" or did she lie and say it was several hundred picograms? She forgot her notes? Really? And the electronic data files...why so secret? And Comodi and Stefanoni promise the controal data sheets are in the court record but yet when given the chance they fail to produce these records. Just like the order Mignini said he signed to deny lawyers to the defendants (why again?) Where is this order so that we can examine it in court and question him about the need for such measures. Or was it simply corrupt behavior by officials to deny the rights of the wrongly accused?

But we are dealing with stupid people here. We have to be. Who charges scientists for failing to predict an earthquake? Stupid people I would have to say. Who runs a Cruise ship into charted rocks and trips and falls into a lifeboat (with his girlfriend) meanwhile innocent people are drowning? Stupid people. Who sit on the SC and decides to overturn a case because the judge did not properly consider the sex orgy gone wrong theory even though there is not one piece of evidence or fact in the record to prove that ever happened? Stupid stupid people. In the latter case the leader of the SC happens to be a "Truther"...yep he thinks the USA blew up the twin towers...the head stupid person.

Italians must be inherently dishonest...and or else massively stupid. The facts seem irrefutable. Dumb cows.

You had me Randy, right up until the last two sentences. Then you rode the train right off the rails. There is nothing inherently stupid or dishonest about Italians. Are some individuals and the system stupid or dishonest? Absolutely, but the people as a whole are not.

They are trapped in a failed system without the mechanism to correct it. Too much power is entrusted to the judges, The system lacks the finality and the integrity to get it right. This much is true, but I will never paint the Italian people with a broad brush. They do need wholesale changes and should adopt more the English/US type of system. They need to end the automatic appeals,and the professional jurists and go to a jury system entirely made up lay people. Would this be perfect? Hardly, but it would be better.

 

[anglolawyer]

You had me Randy, right up until the last two sentences. Then you rode the train right off the rails. There is nothing inherently stupid or dishonest about Italians. Are some individuals and the system stupid or dishonest? Absolutely, but the people as a whole are not.

They are trapped in a failed system without the mechanism to correct it. Too much power is entrusted to the judges, The system lacks the finality and the integrity to get it right. This much is true, but I will never paint the Italian people with a broad brush. They do need wholesale changes and should adopt more the English/US type of system. They need to end the automatic appeals,and the professional jurists and go to a jury system entirely made up lay people. Would this be perfect? Hardly, but it would be better.

You can't count. It was three sentences.

 

[Mary_H]

You can't count. It was three sentences.

"Dumb cows" isn't a sentence.

Hey, I am reading through the motivations more carefully and, yeah, they're crazy. It's actually frightening how crazy they are. If I don't find something that makes sense pretty soon, I may have to take back what I said about being in some agreement with Coulsdon (sorry, Coulsdon).

 

[anglolawyer]

"Dumb cows" isn't a sentence.

Yes it is. It has a capital letter at the beginning and a full stop at the end.

Hey, I am reading through the motivations more carefully and, yeah, they're crazy. It's actually frightening how crazy they are. If I don't find something that makes sense pretty soon, I may have to take back what I said about being in some agreement with Coulsdon (sorry, Coulsdon).

I would be interested to see a PGP show up here and explain it rather than just gloat.

 

[Mary_H]

Yes it is. It has a capital letter at the beginning and a full stop at the end.

anglo, anglo, anglo. A sentence has to have a verb, e.g., "Cows is dumb."

I would be interested to see a PGP show up here and explain it rather than just gloat.

I wouldn't. Their reasoning would be just as convoluted as the judges'. Everything is about the defense not having disproven the prosecution's case, instead of about the prosecution not having proven their own case.

 

[acbytesla]

anglo, anglo, anglo. A sentence has to have a verb, e.g., "Cows is dumb."



I wouldn't. Their reasoning would be just as convoluted as the judges'. Everything is about the defense not having disproven the prosecution's case, instead of about the prosecution not having proven their own case.

Mary has you there Anglo. "Dumb Cows" is a fragment and not a full sentence. Not that I really care. But she is right.