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Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

I think your reading of what RandFan actually said and why is a bit mistaken: ... That is not a derail.
Oh?
Please to find out what statistical significance is and when you are finished there then look up Optimum Sample Size.

People much smarter than most if not all on this forum figured this all out a long, long time ago. No need for this silly equivocation.
The derail is
1. the implication of superior understanding without any demonstration. If YOU had a brain, you'd understand this.
Sorry. Get it? Do you see the problem?
2. Randfan made a claim: "Mine did" (define anecdotal evidence). I suspect this is false.
 
We disagree.

Yes, we do.

To repeat: the arguments for parent control of education parallel the arguments for markets (the system of title and contract law). The system of title (State recognition of a right to control a resource that includes the authority to transfer the resource on terms mutually agreeable to the donor and recipient) and contract law unites local knowledge with the incentive to use resources in socially beneficial ways.

If you wish to use this analogy fne, but i do not think that the provision of education services mirrors a market with property rights and contract law.

First, lets look at contract law. At its most basic a contract is an agreement between two or more parties where goods and/or services are given in exchange for a consideration. The parties are required to enter into these arrangements without duress, and in understanding of their rights and obligations under the contract. Children due to their lack of experience, and knowledge are deemed to be incapable of entering into most contracts (simple purchase agreements such as buying food stuffs are exempt). Therefore any contract whereby an education is provided to a child cannot be entered into by the child itself, and a legal adult is required to therefore exercise their judgement on behalf of the child. And the child, beign considered incapable in the eyes of the legal system, is unable to register any opposition to the contract - imposing a considerable amount of parental compulsion on the child regardless of what that parent's choice is.

Policies that give to parents the power to determine for their own children how those children will spend the time between birth and adulthood empower people who know individual children best and who are most reliably concerned for their welfare.

This would appear to be the situation in the world at this point. Looking at the province of Ontario, a parent/guardian acting on behalf of their children can:

a. Send them to the local school (with options for the Public board, Catholic board, French Public or French Catholic board);
b. Send them to a school that is not local (ie "out of district") if certain criteria are met;
c. Send them to a private school;
d. Home school.

As the schools at option a. are publically funded through taxes (both those collected by the municipality and the province) people don't need to worry about coming up with additional funds for schooling.

Those options apepar to exist in most other jurisdictions on this planet.

Furthermore, policies that give to parents the power to determine for their own children how their children will spend the time between birth and adulthood create incentives for providers of education services that differ systematically from the incentives in a State-monopoly environment.

As there does not appear to be a monopoly on the delivery of education to children, your point wrt the lack of incentives in a monopoly system is irrelevant.

To be sure, some children will fall through the cracks in any system.

Any system where the costs of education are solely borne by the parents of children will cause a much larger percentage to "fall through the cracks" than one where the costs are spread across the entire tax base. As I showed earlier, the average costs of a year's education for primary and secondary education in Canada is approximately $11,000/student in the publically funded system. Private schools appear to cost about $13,000/year.

As an anecdote, if I was to have to defray the entire costs of my three children's education personally, it would consume approximately half of my annual income. Given the rather harsh physical and economic realities we all face, that would likely cause me to have to pick which one gets the formal education that will permit the opportunity for something other than menial employment.

By spreading the costs of education arcross the entire tax base, it allows all children the opportunity to receive an education, preparing them not only for employment, but also preparing them to operate in the wider society. Little things like having to wait turns, listen to authority figures (because unless you are very exceptional, you will have a boss or supervisor at some point in your life), and how to get along with your peers.

Jose Padilla attended government schools. John Walker Lind attended government schools.


Nice poisoning of the well - however:

Mr. Lindh got his high school equivalency diploma at a school offering self directed studies and was able to leave that school system at 16 (isn't that something you approve of?) and then went off to further his education overseas at a variety of religious schools before getting yet more education in paramilitary skills (presumably he needed to pay to attend the madrassa)

Mr. Lindh would fit the educational mold you have advocated - self directed studies based on the interests and ability of the learner, a standardized test to be taken at the appropriate time and additional OJT to round off the skill set.

If it is your intent to argue that government schools are responsible for the likes of Lindh and Padilla (and I seem to be drawing a blank on where he received his education), can I point out that Vlad Tepes Dracula, Ivan Grozny, and others were educated by private tutors. Your observation is rather pointless.
 
Typically, Randfan...
Try civility.

Parent control enhances the match between the child's interests and abilities, on the one hand, and the institution's curriculum and methods, on the other.
A.) Asserted. B.) Not responsive to the issue at hand.

b) Minimum wage laws, child labor laws, and compulsory attendance laws limit the options.
Hang on, minimum wage prevents free markets? Really? How does compulsory attendance limit options? The state only asks that a child attend school. I know of no state that disallows parochial\private\independent schools.

d) The policy that restricts parents' options for the use of the taxpayers' age 6-18 subsidy to schools operated by dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel tilts the scale strongly in favor of government schools.There's that "you" again. Which system?
Either the free market can compete with state run compulsory schools or you are going to have to come up with a valid reason for why they can't.

Oh, and try civility. Referring to me in the 3rd person is patronizing and rude. Authority figures like to correct bad behavior by referring to people in the 3rd person when talking to a group. It's obnoxious and rude. And if you would stop doing it we could move on.
 
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Either compulsion is an element of your definition or it is not.

Malcolm said:
There's "you" again.
"Your", Y - O - U - R. The word "your" is an adjective that denotes possession. The subject of my statement is your definition and NOT you.

"12. “Address the argument, not the arguer." Having your opinion, claim or argument challenged, doubted or dismissed is not attacking the arguer.E8"
That's precisely what I'm doing. "Your definition" != "you".


b) Definition of what?
The subject of the thread. Your definition of slavery. And FWIW, attacking your definition is not the same as attacking you.
 
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To repeat: the arguments for parent control of education parallel the arguments for markets (the system of title and contract law). The system of title (State recognition of a right to control a resource that includes the authority to transfer the resource on terms mutually agreeable to the donor and recipient) and contract law unites local knowledge with the incentive to use resources in socially beneficial ways.
If you wish to use this analogy fine, but I do not think that the provision of education services mirrors a market with property rights and contract law.

First, lets look at contract law. At its most basic a contract is an agreement between two or more parties where goods and/or services are given in exchange for a consideration. The parties are required to enter into these arrangements without duress, and in understanding of their rights and obligations under the contract. Children due to their lack of experience, and knowledge are deemed to be incapable of entering into most contracts (simple purchase agreements such as buying food stuffs are exempt). Therefore any contract whereby an education is provided to a child cannot be entered into by the child itself, and a legal adult is required to therefore exercise their judgement on behalf of the child. And the child, being considered incapable in the eyes of the legal system, is unable to register any opposition to the contract - imposing a considerable amount of parental compulsion on the child regardless of what that parent's choice is.
This misses the point. The system of markets (title and contract law) uses local knowledge about producer costs and consumer preferences that is unavailable to remote planners. Policies that give to individual parents the power to determine how their own children will spend the time between birth and adulthood use local knowledge of individual children's interests and abilities that is unavailable to remote planners.
Policies that give to parents the power to determine for their own children how those children will spend the time between birth and adulthood empower people who know individual children best and who are most reliably concerned for their welfare.
This would appear to be the situation in the world at this point.
Some parts of it, anyway. To a degree.
Looking at the province of Ontario, a parent/guardian acting on behalf of their children can:
a. Send them to the local school (with options for the Public board, Catholic board, French Public or French Catholic board);
b. Send them to a school that is not local (ie "out of district") if certain criteria are met;
c. Send them to a private school;
d. Home school.
As the schools at option a. are publically funded through taxes (both those collected by the municipality and the province) people don't need to worry about coming up with additional funds for schooling.
Those options appear to exist in most other jurisdictions on this planet.
I understand that some Canadian provinces subsidize a parent's choice of parochial school. Every expansion of options will reduce the malign impact of State compulsion on education system performance.
Furthermore, policies that give to parents the power to determine for their own children how their children will spend the time between birth and adulthood create incentives for providers of education services that differ systematically from the incentives in a State-monopoly environment.
As there does not appear to be a monopoly on the delivery of education to children, your point wrt the lack of incentives in a monopoly system is irrelevant.
A monopoly is a sole seller. A monopsony is a sole buyer. Policies in many US States give to the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel an exclusive position in receipt of the taxpayers' K-12 education subsidy. The cartel's schools qualify as a monopoly.
To be sure, some children will fall through the cracks in any system.
Any system where the costs of education are solely borne by the parents of children will cause a much larger percentage to "fall through the cracks" than one where the costs are spread across the entire tax base.
We disagree. The supposition that tax subsidization of education and State operation of school will reduce costs to parents of education relies on the wildly unrealistic assumption that State actors are competent and altruistic.
 
"Your", Y - O - U - R. The word "your" is an adjective that denotes possession. The subject of my statement is your definition and NOT you.
Merriam Webster
Definition of YOUR
1: of or relating to you or yourself or yourselves especially as possessor or possessors <your bodies>, agent or agents <your contributions>, or object or objects of an action <your discharge>
 
Merriam Webster
1: of or relating to you or yourself or yourselves especially as possessor or possessors <your bodies>, agent or agents <your contributions>, or object or objects of an action <your discharge>

By this logic, if I attack YOUR argument I am attacking "you".

Sorry, no. If I paint YOUR home that does not mean that I painted "you".
 
All human behavioral traits are heritable.

Really?

schizophrenia, for example has a strong genetic influence but also a strong environmental influence.

Studies on twins have shown that the concordance rate in schizophrenia is higher in identical twins (40-60%) than in fraternal twins (10-20%) (Gottesman and Shields, 1982; Gottesman, 1991), suggesting a genetic disposition. This said, the genetic influence does not seem to be marked i.e. the actual incidence of the illness is around 50%. If the schizophrenia trait was produced by a single gene we would expect to see 75% of children with two schizophrenic parents develop the illness if the gene was dominant (for reasons we'll come to in session 9). Moreover, if the gene was recessive we would expect to see all children of two schizophrenic parents become schizophrenic (again, for reasons we'll come to in session 9).

What people seem to be inheriting is some sort of risk, some sort of vulnerability or predisposition which may or may not lead to the development of the disorder. Thus, the genetic influence gives a susceptibility (diathesis) to the illness and other factors trigger the occurrence of the illness.

That alone is sufficient to disprove your assertion.
 
By this logic, if I attack YOUR argument I am attacking "you".
Not at all. Suppose A and B are mutually exclusive theories and individual x asserts A. Individual y can dispute A without any reference to x either by asserting B or "not A, B". Drop the mindreading ('you don't care about the poor", etc.) the accusations of argument in bad faith ("dodge", etc.) and the pretentious, undemonstrated (self-refuting, imho) assertions of superior understanding ("what you fail to understand", "look up anecdote", etc.) and we might eventually get to "du". Until then, I will use the impersonal style. Unless provoked. Then I'll call the cartel's shills shills for the cartel.
 
Not at all. Suppose A and B are mutually exclusive theories and individual x asserts A. Individual y can dispute A without any reference to x either by asserting B or "not A, B".
Malcolm is the the only one who offered the definition. Malcolm interjected the definition into this discussion. It is Malcolm's belief that state run compulsory education is slavery. RandFan does not believe that. RandFan is skeptical that anyone other than right-wing ideologues believe that. So, when RandFan says "your definition", RandFan is not talking about Malcolm but rather is talking about Malcolm's definition.

I will use the impersonal style.
Translation, Malcolm will continue to refer to others in the 3rd person regardless of whether others find it patronizing.

When RandFan found out that Malcolm didn't like the use of the term "public education" to refer to state run compulsory education (even though that is what it is), RandFan stopped using the term so as to avoid argument about that. Others might want to consider such action.
 
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Really? ...
Yes, really.
Here. We could have an interesting discussion that relates to our topic. How would one test the hypotheses that compassion and reading comprehension had significant hereditary components? It is hard to conduct properly controlled experiments on humans in a free society, but put that objection aside for the moment. It is also hard to disentangle environmental variables from genetic variables. Adoptive twin studies provide one possibility. Here's another: Suppose we want to investigate the genetic component of compassion. Suppose we have the resources to conduct background checks on prospective parents. We could rank 200 parent pairs for compassion (by, say, neighbors' opinions, by frequency of assault arrests, by charitable giving, etc.). We could then steal 100 babies post-delivery and switch children of compassionate parents into families of abusive parents, and vice versa. Someone who supposes that both environmental and genetic factors contribute to "compassion", however defined, will predict that the switched children will score between the unswitched children of compassionate parents and the unswitched children of abusive parents.

One could probably design an analogous experiment on the genetic and environmental contributions to reading comprehension.

Just how would a compulsively abusive person with limited reading comprehension conduct an argument? Wouldn't such a person be less charitable, less restrained by the possibility that s/he simply misunderstood the argument from the other side than would a compassionate person?
 
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Just how would a compulsively abusive person with limited reading comprehension conduct an argument?
He would probably patronize and condescend. He would be impersonal and act like an authority figure who wanted to correct the bad behavior of a subordinate by referring to other people in the third person. As for reading comprehension, such a person would probably misconstrue quotes and thus mislead the audience as to what the authority figure meant. For instance, if such a person thought Einstein was criticizing the American education system due to reading comprehension problems then he might inadvertently misquote Einstein\. Either that or the person doesn't have a reading comprehension problem but instead has an obfuscation problem.

My guess is that it would be helpful if such a person would take a long hard look in the mirror. That person might have the temptation to project.
 
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Some parts of it, anyway. To a degree.Quote]

Throughout the US and Canada the option exists to send your child to private school. Where's the degree? There are options available to all parents.

I understand that some Canadian provinces subsidize a parent's choice of parochial school. Every expansion of options will reduce the malign impact of State compulsion on education system performance

First, it's ALL provinces and territories.

Second, education services, whether publically or privately funded, have provincially set standards that students are expected to achieve.

A monopoly is a sole seller. A monopsony is a sole buyer. Policies in many US States give to the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel an exclusive position in receipt of the taxpayers' K-12 education subsidy. The cartel's schools qualify as a monopoly.

The existence of options other than public schools, means that there is no monopoly on the provision of educational services.

private schools don't get public money. Just like private armies don't get public money.

We disagree. The supposition that tax subsidization of education and State operation of school will reduce costs to parents of education relies on the wildly unrealistic assumption that State actors are competent and altruistic.

I've already shown the figures showing that here at least the state is providing a balanced education for LESS than the private institution, why are you ignoring that?
 
Just how would a compulsively abusive person with limited reading comprehension conduct an argument?
Such a person would probably get yellow carded and have his or her post moved to AAH.

Wouldn't such a person be less charitable, less restrained by the possibility that s/he simply misunderstood the argument from the other side than would a compassionate person?
Such a person would probably want to keep bringing up old mistakes of others in order to belittle and appeal to derision.
 

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