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WTC Dust Study Feb 29, 2012 by Dr. James Millette

How do you know it? It is no more than your wishfull thinking;)

I was reading back your own argument to you. Lol. So yes, wishful thinking is right on your part.


I just wrote that MEK chip was probably Tnemec chip. It is quite probable that Tnemec chips are quite rare in the dust in comparison with Laclede chips, since e.g. the massive perimeter steel was much less deformed during the catastrophe than comparatively "tiny" floor trusses. This can be the reason why Millette did not recognize clearly any Tnemec chip in his study.

"Probably" isn't near good enough here, Ivan, for the kind of assertions you're making. You're now attempting to refute the findings of everyone who has investigated the issue -- without doing any investigation yourself. That's child's play. You should stop talking.


We have found no samples of Laclede paint since no floor trusses are available anywhere, even for Jim Millette, who tried to find them. But we have its detailed specification available in NIST report. And this specification is in a very good/excellent agreement with the properties of Bentham chips (a) to (d), which were declared to be nanothermite by Harrit et al;)

Funny, most people can't find unicorns or UFOs either. And they're even less prevalent than Laclede paint in the WTC rubble. :D How in/convenient for you that you will never, at this point, be able to prove your theory.

Why keep posting about it though?
 
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Anyway, it's not even a theory because it's not falsifiable. How pathetic.

Four years of internet blathering over a fantasy paint that no one has ever seen, or found, that has magical, non-paint properties, and will supposedly debunk the nanothermite theory for ALL TIME !!1!.

Really? This is what you've got? :eye-poppi
 
Anyway, it's not even a theory because it's not falsifiable. How pathetic.

Four years of internet blathering over a fantasy paint that no one has ever seen, or found, that has magical, non-paint properties, and will supposedly debunk the nanothermite steel primer theory for ALL TIME !!1!.

Really? This is what you've got? :eye-poppi

Fixed that for you. You were talking about yourself, right?
 
A short summary on the issue of Millette's chips being LaClede steel primer paint.

"I've just read the quotes from Ivan that you included. He/they conclude the chips are epoxy-based paint.

The 'specifically LaClede' part was speculation, quite likely wrong.

Let me remind you:

Conclusion: Bentham chips (a) to (d) and Millette’s chips with the same/similar characteristic are all the same and they are all some epoxy-based coating (paint) on rust flakes/oxidized steel.
My bolding.
"
"I agree with you that Ivan is "quite likely wrong." Something that he and Oystein have refused to admit.

Ivan has repeatedly stated he supports Oystein's LaClede paint theory."
Oystein said:
"Harrit is apparently unaware of the fact that more than one type of primer was used on WTC steel.

He is talking about Tnemec.

Our [Ivan Kminek and Oystein], theory is that chips a-d from "Active Thermitic Material..." are LaClede standard primer from floor joists - a different formulation than the Tnemec from perimeter columns."
"This is the epoxy-based paint Ivan has been constantly referring to and that is why he continues to refer to LaClede when he talks about the chips being only paint.

Ivan and Oystein know that the 2009 Bentham paper already analyzed the only other candidate primer paint, Tnemec, so they are betting everything on LaClede."
"Well, as you know, we expect some 1.2 wt% of strontium chromate in Laclede primer. XEDS is definitely not able to prove it, since strontium peak is inevitably in overlap with silicon peak and, moreover, the concentration of this compound is too low."

"Problem is that chromium was present (as zinc chromate) also in Tnemec primer paint (and perhaps even in some other minor primers, unknown to us). So, clearly only strontium detection can be good enough as the "final" proof of Laclede paint."

"Jim Millette specifically said to me, unequivocally, NO STRONTIUM CHROMATE.

It was clear to me that he looked and he did not find it.

I wouldn't bet my nuts on it being LaClede.
"
"Dr. Millette's study says a big NO to LaClede.

So.

If Dr. Millette was studying steel primer paint chips, as he and Ivan are arguing, they must be Tnemec which the 2009 Bentham paper has scientifically eliminated as a contender.

That eliminates the two steel primer paints known to have been used at the WTC.

Conclusion:

The 9/11 WTC dust red chips highlighted in the 2009 Bentham paper were not steel primer paint.

In light of Dr. Millette and Dr. Harrit et al's findings, I asked Ivan Kminek if he still adheres to his obsessive believe that Dr. Millette's 9/11 WTC dust red chip study was performed on LaClede paint chips.

"Ivan Kminek, Do you and Oystein still insist that the red chips studied by Dr. Millette and those highlighted in the 2009 Bentham paper are LaClede primer paint?"

And Ivan Kminek's unsupported response;

"Yes, Sir :cool:"

Clearly Ivan Kminek is not interested in the truth.

He and Oystein have invested too much time and effort supporting their failed LaClede hypothesis to admit their error.

MM
 
[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img163/9536/d5ih.png[/qimg]


Other than the absence of surface contaminants, I'm not sure why you feel Fig. 7 provides less detail than Fig. (14)?[1]
All 5 chips are presented in the 2009 Bentham paper and were determined to be thermitic.[2]
Chips from batches a,b,c, & d were exposed to contamination during the 9/11 WTC destruction and were cross-sectioned to provide a clean surface for XEDS.[3]
The MEK-soaked chip, which was also also exposed to contamination during the 9/11 WTC destruction, came from batch (b), but was not cross-sectioned leaving a 'dirtier' surface for XEDS.

Of course the XEDS of its surface showed differences.

MM

[1]The Al:Si ratio for the MEK chip differs from the ratio of the chips a - d.

[2]No, they were not, as only four chips were tested via DSC. Furthermore two of the tested chips were from the same sample (Jeanette MacKinlay).

[3]This is an unsupported claim as the surfaces of the chips a - d were never examined.
 
If Dr. Millette was studying steel primer paint chips, as he and Ivan are arguing, they must be Tnemec which the 2009 Bentham paper has scientifically eliminated as a contender.
[/b]

Millette also rules out Tnemec.

PS: I think you can throw Sunstealer into the magical paint crowd, too.
 
I'm not aware of any reports of magnetically attracted WTC paint chips. I'm not denying they exist necessarily; I just don't know who is making this claim.


First of all, you have to go to the Bentham paper and read about what criteria they used to gather the chips they wanted for testing. Here is a quote from the paper stating their two criteria. This is taken from page 9, under the heading 2. Chip Size, Isolation, and Examination.
For clarification, the dust samples collected and sent to the authors by Ms. Janette MacKinlay will be sample 1; the sample collected by Mr. Frank Delassio, or the Delassio/Breidenbach sample, will be sample 2; the sample collected by Mr. Jody Intermont will be sample 3; and the sample collected by Mr. Stephen White will be sample 4. The red/gray chips are attracted by a magnet, which facilitates collection and separation of the chips from the bulk of the dust. A small permanent magnet in its own plastic bag was used to attract and collect the chips from dust samples. The chips are typically small but readily discernible by eye due to their distinctive color. They are of variable size with major dimensions of roughly 0.2 to 3 mm. Thicknesses vary from roughly 10 to 100 microns for each layer (red and gray). Samples of WTC dust from these and other collectors have been sent directly from collectors to various scientists (including some not on this research team) who have also found such red/gray chips in the dust from the World Trade Center
destruction.


So that's it. Two criteria.
1. Distinctive red/gray layers
2. Attracted to a magnet

According to the Bentham paper, they extracted the chips using the two criteria above and then proceeded to test them with various tests throughout the remainder of the paper and published the results. Not once does the paper ever show that ANY of the red/gray chips in the dust are anything BUT thermitic in nature. They even state that the red/gray chips tested in the paper were NOT paint. This quote is taken from page 7 of the Bentham paper under the heading INTRODUCTION
In order to better understand these features of the destruction, the authors initiated an examination of this dust. In June 2007, Dr. Steven Jones observed distinctive bi-layered chips, with both a red and a gray layer, in a sample of the WTC dust. Initially, it was suspected these might be dried paint chips, but after closer inspection and testing, it was shown that this was not the case.


This next quote from the paper further solidifies that Harrit and his group found that all the red/gray, magnetically attracted chips they extracted were ALL thermitic in nature. This is taken from page 29 at the end of the CONCLUSIONS section.
Based on these observations, we conclude that the red layer of the red/gray chips we have discovered in the WTC dust is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material.


Then, after Millette's paper comes out, Steven Jones, co-author of the Bentham paper, decides to make this comment taken from this link http://911blogger.com/news/2012-09-08/letter-regarding-redgray-chip-analyses
Also, we checked the electrical resistivity of several paints – consistently orders of magnitude higher than that of the red material. We reported the resistivity of the red material in our paper, page 27 in the Journal. Millette did not report any electrical resistivity measurements. This measurement is rather easy to do so I was surprised when he failed to do this straightforward test. There is a lot of red material of various types in the WTC dust, so one must be careful to make sure it is the same as what we studied, and not some other material.


Also, Frank Legge, another co-author of the Bentham paper, makes this statement in regards to a question posed to him at http://www.amazon.com/review/R1VABIZJ14CZ8F?cdPage=27. The question is quoted first and Frank's answer second.
Do I understand you correctly when I construe your words to imply
1. that there are different kinds of red-gray chips, i.e. different materials? Such that some may represent thermitic incendiaries/explosives, some may perhaps represent paint, and some may perhaps represent other mundane or not so mundane things?"

Of course!


So now you have two co-authors stating that there are MANY kinds of red/gray chips, INCLUDING paint chips. This directly contradicts the Bentham paper's findings that there WEREN'T any paint chips and that there were ONLY thermitic chips. BIG mistake.


Let's take the statements of Jones and Legge as being the truth, there there were many different types of red/gray, magnetically attracted chips in their extraction pile, including paint. I have many questions.

1. How did they figure out that there were many types of red/gray, magnetically attracted chips for Legge and Jones to make such a statement? Obviously the two criteria used in the isolation section of the Bentham paper wasn't enough. Jones says that the did resisitivity tests to show that they weren't paint. Problem is, they only tested one chip for resisitivity in the Bentham paper. The quote below is taken from page 27, under the heading 7. Could the Red Chip Material be Ordinary Paint? . So which chip in the Bentham paper did they perform this test on, A, B, C, or D?
We measured the resistivity of the red material (with very
little gray adhering to one side) using a Fluke 8842A multimeter in order to compare with ordinary paints, using the
formula:
Specific resistivity = RA / L where R = resistance (ohms); A = cross-sectional area (m2); L= thickness (m).
Given the small size of the red chip, about 0.5 mm x 0.5
mm, we used two probes and obtained a rough value of approximately 10 ohm-m. This is several orders of magnitude
less than paint coatings we found tabulated which are typically over 1010 ohm-m [31].


2. Since according to Legge and Jones, they were aware of many different types of red/gray, magnetically attracted chips, why weren't the tests and their results showing this published?

3. Since they had found red/gray, magnetically attracted paint chips (among other types) in the dust long with red/gray, magnetically attracted thermitic chips, why did they need to get paint samples from OTHER sources and use tabulated findings from OTHER sources with they had the damn paint chips in their hands and could have tested them right then and there instead of using outside sources?

4. Why won't they share their chips with anyone else for testing?

5. Why haven't they published results for the gray layer?

6. They say the energy released by some of the chips was HIGHER than that of conventional thermite. Seriously? Doesn't that prove it's not thermite?

7. Why have they not published any FTIR data?

8. If the DSC results are so important in determining what the chips are and aren't, why were't the chips extracted from the Delassio sample (one of the four) not tested in a DSC? Take a look at page 20, Fig. (19) of the Bentham paper which shows a graphic for the DSC traces. They tested the "White" sample, The "Intermont" sample, and the "Mackinlay" sample twice. Why no test results for the Delassio sample? Strange that this test was SO important, but they missed testing that sample.

9. If these other tests were so important in determining which are the thermitic chips, then why in his Toronto video does he pass around a bag with a magnet and tell the audience that if they drag the magnet across the bag, they will collect the thermitic chips in question? Further proof that they believe, as the Bentham paper states, that ALL red/gray, magnetically attracted chips were thermitic and nothing else.


All of this, along with all the other points made by people in this thread with WAY more knowledge than I regarding chemical composition and material analysis and you STILL defend Harrit and his findings.

One final question.

What test or tests did Harrit and his group do in the Bentham paper, over and above the magnet and visual red/gray layer criteria (which Millette followed), that would prove that Milllete had the right chips? Keep in mind that you have to prove, using the Bentham paper, that the same definitive tests you put forth had to have been performed, without question, on all chips tested in the Bentham paper in order to be sure THEY also did what you expect Millette to do.
 
A short summary on the issue of Millette's chips being LaClede steel primer paint.

So why, with Harrit and his group separating out very similar red/gray paint chips from the red/gray thermtic chips did they not test and publish comparative results of BOTH chips?

I mean you have red/gray paint chips composed of A, B, C, D, and you have red/gray thermitic chips composed of A, B, C, D, E, F.

Wouldn't you want to show that materials E and F were added to the paint???
 
In light of Dr. Millette and Dr. Harrit et al's findings, I asked Ivan Kminek if he still adheres to his obsessive believe that Dr. Millette's 9/11 WTC dust red chip study was performed on LaClede paint chips.

Here's a question for you MM.

You believe Harrit separated out red/gray paint chips from the red/gray thermitic chips.

Did Harrit and his group, based on your belief/logic, find LaClede and/or Tnemec red/gray, magnetically attracted paint chips in addition to the thermitic red/gray chips (and other types according to Legge and Jones)?
 
No I didn't. I said they tested paint chips. Which they did, with flame.

I'm not playing word games with you ergo so I'll make this very simple.

You stated, through a series of your posts and other (shown above) that Harrit and his group tested "WTC paint adhered to oxidized steel".

So I will ask you again. Please point me to the source where they state this.
 
Ergo: Hehe;) As for your comparison of WTC primer paints with UFO or capricorns, my congratulation:rolleyes: You can even win some top position in the thread What are the finest examples of 9/ll Truther stupidity that you've ever encountered?:cool: I think.
 
"
d5ih.png



Other than the absence of surface contaminants, I'm not sure why you feel Fig. 7 provides less detail than Fig. (14)?"
"The Al:Si ratio for the MEK chip differs from the ratio of the chips a - d."


In samples (b), (c) (d) and the MEK-(b), the Si spike exceeds the Ai.

In sample (a), the Ai spike is higher.

If you look at Ai-Si spikes for the (d) sample, the spikes have a significantly higher amplitude than those of the MEK-(b) chip.

The 2009 Bentham paper's Fig. (7) XEDS shows a range of sample-to-sample variation in the Ai-Si spike amplitudes.

The XEDS for the MEK-(b) lies inside of that range.

"All 5 chips are presented in the 2009 Bentham paper and were determined to be thermitic."
"No, they were not, as only four chips were tested via DSC."

You have no idea how many chips were tested by DSC.

You only know about the tests that were given mention in the 2009 Bentham paper.

As to the number of DSC tests run, all that was stated was;

2009 Bentham paper said:
"Red/gray chips were subjected to heating using a DSC."



"Furthermore two of the tested chips were from the same sample (Jeanette MacKinlay)."

What relevance is there in the fact that 2 of the 5 selected chips you mention came from the same bag of 9/11 WTC dust?

"Chips from batches a,b,c, & d were exposed to contamination during the 9/11 WTC destruction and were cross-sectioned to provide a clean surface for XEDS.

The MEK chip, which was similarly exposed to contamination during the 9/11 WTC destruction, came from batch (b), but was not cross-sectioned leaving a 'dirtier' surface for XEDS.

Of course the XEDS of its surface, taken before the MEK soaking, showed differences."
"This is an unsupported claim as the surfaces of the chips a - d were never examined."

Is it your belief that before cross-sectioning, scientists managed to find 4 chips whose outsides were as uncontaminated as their insides?

MM
 
You have no idea how many chips were tested by DSC.

I thought this was one of the deciding tests in determining the chips were thermitic? Why were ALL chips extracted from the four samples declared to be thermitic when they didn't do a DSC test on the Delassio sample?

I thought the resistivity test was a "decisive" test for determining and separating red/gray paint chips from the bulk of red/gray thermitic chips? Yet Harrit and his group tested ONE red/gray chip for resistivity. So which chip was this resistvity test done on? A, B, C, or D?
 
What relevance is there in the fact that 2 of the 5 selected chips you mention came from the same bag of 9/11 WTC dust?

See my post above.

If it was such a decisive test in determining and making sure one would have the correct red/gray chips (since there were so MANY different types), you would have to run this test on all four samples right?

Since they didn't run a DSC test on the Delassio sample, how can the Bentham paper conclude that ALL four samples contained thermitic material?

If the results are not in the paper, they didn't do it. If they did, it should be in the paper. What are they hiding MM?
 
New element found in WTC dust

In samples (b), (c) (d) and the MEK-(b), the Si spike exceeds the Ai.

In sample (a), the Ai spike is higher.

If you look at Ai-Si spikes for the (d) sample, the spikes have a significantly higher amplitude than those of the MEK-(b) chip.

The 2009 Bentham paper's Fig. (7) XEDS shows a range of sample-to-sample variation in the Ai-Si spike amplitudes.

The XEDS for the MEK-(b) lies inside of that range.

...
Is it your belief that before cross-sectioning, scientists managed to find 4 chips whose outsides were as uncontaminated as their insides?

MM
The DSC did not match thermite. Darn, the Jones fraud is exposed by Jones. Only true believers, followers hang on to thermite in the 12th year.

Jones discovered coatings, stuff used to coat stuff, or worse, plain dust from the WTC. There is zero thermite damage to any steel from 911. Means, Jones fraud is exposed.

Millette showed what his dust were, Jones did not show thermite. It does not take a chemistry professor, or chem engineer to see how Jones fooled those too challenged to take Jones paper, and Millette's paper to an expert, and see which one is reality, supporting the conclusion made.
 
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Dishonesty.

Agreed.

That's why they won't answer any more of my questions. They got caught in a contradiction and they know it.

Legge and Jones say there were many types of red/gray chips in their extracted samples yet the Bentham paper states there was only one kind of red/gray chip that they found. Thermitic.

BIG contradiction, BIG mistake.
 
In samples (b), (c) (d) and the MEK-(b), the Si spike exceeds the Ai.

In sample (a), the Ai spike is higher.

If you look at Ai-Si spikes for the (d) sample, the spikes have a significantly higher amplitude than those of the MEK-(b) chip.

The 2009 Bentham paper's Fig. (7) XEDS shows a range of sample-to-sample variation in the Ai-Si spike amplitudes.

The XEDS for the MEK-(b) lies inside of that range.

You are wrong, the Al:Si ratio lies not inside that range, it is not even close. Based on Harrit's EDX spectrum the Si content exceeds the aluminum content by a factor of 2. In chips a - d the ratio is nearly 1.

You have no idea how many chips were tested by DSC.

If further chips were tested and the results of the tests are left out, I strongly assume that they do not corroborate the nanothermite hypothesis. ;)

What relevance is there in the fact that 2 of the 5 selected chips you mention came from the same bag of 9/11 WTC dust?

As no chip from the Delessio/Breidenbach sample was investigated by DSC you have no proof that this sample contains "thermitic" chips.

Is it your belief that before cross-sectioning, scientists managed to find 4 chips whose outsides were as uncontaminated as their insides

It is not about belief, it is about facts! You have no proof that surface contamination alters the Al:Si ratio. Another errornous method applied by Harrit et al.
 
Confirmed is the wrong word. He came to that conclusion. If he was confirming something, it would be prior findings. Whose prior findings was he confirming?
Sunstealer and others already found that the data in the paper supports that there was no free aluminium in any of the chips studied. Millette's findings confirmed that. Do you want to turn this discussion into semantics? http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/confirm

You seem to be very fond of word games. I don't play that.
 
Ergo: Hehe;) As for your comparison of WTC primer paints with UFO or capricorns, my congratulation:rolleyes: You can even win some top position in the thread What are the finest examples of 9/ll Truther stupidity that you've ever encountered?:cool: I think.

Why? Your claim to some mysterious, magical paint that is unlike any other primer paint that you somehow can't find any samples of, but that would PROVE EVERYTHING IF ONLY YOU COULD FIND SOME!! very much resembles claims of unicorns or elves or Santa. In other words, a convenient mythical, invisible entity that you never have to actually produce.
 
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