What counts as a historical Jesus?

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Dunno, Tim.
I think DOC will opt for The Garden Tomb

http://www.gardentomb.com/
"The Garden Tomb is an alternative site to the famous Holy Sepulchre for you to consider the Crucifixion and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Garden is a beautiful place in which you will discover several things that were all here on the night Jesus died and which match the accounts in the four Gospels. We never claim to be in the right place as we could never prove that; but where Jesus died is of little importance compared with why. So here we ask you to open the Bible and see what it says about these vital Christian truths."

"The Israeli Tour Guides’ Association recently nominated the Garden Tomb as the best tour site in Israel. And the Lonely Planet guide quotes a Roman Catholic priest who said “If the Garden Tomb is not the right place, it should be”."

It has a gift shop, too.
 
Dunno, Tim.
I think DOC will opt for The Garden Tomb

http://www.gardentomb.com/
"The Garden Tomb is an alternative site to the famous Holy Sepulchre for you to consider the Crucifixion and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Garden is a beautiful place in which you will discover several things that were all here on the night Jesus died and which match the accounts in the four Gospels. We never claim to be in the right place as we could never prove that; but where Jesus died is of little importance compared with why. So here we ask you to open the Bible and see what it says about these vital Christian truths."

"The Israeli Tour Guides’ Association recently nominated the Garden Tomb as the best tour site in Israel. And the Lonely Planet guide quotes a Roman Catholic priest who said “If the Garden Tomb is not the right place, it should be”."

It has a gift shop, too.

According to mystical thought it doesn't matter if it's the real thing or not, if enough people think it's real and pray and emote there then that will sanctify it.

IOW if you tell a lie sincerely enough and get enough to believe it it becomes the truth.
 
According to mystical thought it doesn't matter if it's the real thing or not, if enough people think it's real and pray and emote there then that will sanctify it.

IOW if you tell a lie sincerely enough and get enough to believe it it becomes the truth.

You owe me a new keyboard.
Still, it's my own fault for opening this thread with a nice cup of chrysanthemum tea in my hand.
 
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Good luck with that. Most likely, what DOC will come up with is the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem, discovered in the fourth century - along with what were purported to be the True Cross and the Titulus - by Helena, mother of Emperor Constantine.

In CE 70 the Romans flattened Jerusalem. Josephus states that, had the Romans not deliberately left three towers standing, to give an idea of the size of the city the razed, no passersby would be able to tell there had ever been a city on that site. Any tomb in which Jesus might have been buried would have either been flattened or buried in rubble. Though the city was rebuilt, it was flattened again in 136 at the conclusion of the Bar Kochba revolt, adding another layer of rubble. A new city, Colonia Aelia Capitolina, was built on the site, replete with temples to the Olympian gods. It was later renamed Jerusalem again after the triumph of Christianity. Thus, the likelihood of finding any tomb in which Jesus had been interred is nil.

In any case, this may well be moot. As a criminal put to death for sedition, the body Jesus might well have been subjected to the indignity of simply being thrown into the city's trash heap and cover with lime. The burial in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea might well be another fiction.

I was being sarcastic. Of course DOC won't provide any evidence.
 
Dunno, Tim.
I think DOC will opt for The Garden Tomb

http://www.gardentomb.com/
"The Garden Tomb is an alternative site to the famous Holy Sepulchre for you to consider the Crucifixion and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Garden is a beautiful place in which you will discover several things that were all here on the night Jesus died and which match the accounts in the four Gospels. We never claim to be in the right place as we could never prove that; but where Jesus died is of little importance compared with why. So here we ask you to open the Bible and see what it says about these vital Christian truths."

"The Israeli Tour Guides’ Association recently nominated the Garden Tomb as the best tour site in Israel. And the Lonely Planet guide quotes a Roman Catholic priest who said “If the Garden Tomb is not the right place, it should be”."

It has a gift shop, too.

Of course, the Garden Tomb, like the Holy Sepulcher, is as unlikely to be the tomb of Jesus as any other. I still suspect any body that was crucified would have been tossed into a common grave or thrown in a dump and covered with quicklime.
 
Of course, the Garden Tomb, like the Holy Sepulcher, is as unlikely to be the tomb of Jesus as any other. I still suspect any body that was crucified would have been tossed into a common grave or thrown in a dump and covered with quicklime.

Possibly, Tim, but DOC has proposed the Garden Tomb before and it seemed likely he'd do so again.
Besides, it's not everyday I get an excuse to cite The Lonely Planet guide.
 
You speak a lot of sense eight-bits, but the stumbling block for debate is that, for people like DOC and others with similar belief systems, faith leads them to the conclusion that the Bible is contains all-truth because the Bible says it does. The Bible is, in their eyes, effectively evidence of its own factual basis.

From my atheist and critical thinking point of view, they appear to live in a self-fulfilling fantasy, unable to see outside of their own church-imposed and limited world-view. IMO, the reason for their state of mind is faith. You can debate with them until you're blue in the face, and you will never get them to yield so long as you cannot shake their faith, because faith is the antithesis of critical thought. Faith removes the ability for Christians and others like them, to think for themselves and to make up their own minds.

Actually the problem is deeper then that.

If you have watched James Burke's Day the Universe Changed series you know that any investigation in how the universe "works" requires a model or "structure" of how things work.

Evidence for continental drift, the existence of Troy, heliocentrism, the Norse colonization of the Americas, and the Big Bang Theory was initially rejected because the old theories with minor adjustments could "explain away" the very early evidence.

It was only when the old theory was in shambles or evidence overwhelming that the view changed. As mentioned before Horace Miner showed just how easy it is for a model to drive every step of your study right up to the conclusion.

Josephus is a case in point as very important questions are ignored:

1) Why does no Church father before the 4th century mention the Testimonium Flavianum even when it would have been in their best interests to do so?

2) Why does the Testimonium Flavianum break the flow of the narrative in the passage it appears in?

3) Why is the fact that ο χριστος ουτος ην quite literally reads "this was the ointment" (rendering the earliest version of the Testimonium Flavianum we have nonsensical) ignored?

4) Why is the fact "christ" is used in the Old Testament to refer to other people ignored?
 
My friends, I think that something just happened that's never happened before in the history of the internet: two internet denizens actually agree on something!

Make that three. The joke was not only bad but it distracted from the actual point being raised.

Back to the point at hand:

"A Historical myth according to Strauss, and to some extent I follow his language, is a real event colored by the light of antiquity, which confounded the human and divine, the natural and the supernatural. The event may be but slightly colored and the narrative essentially true, or it may be distorted and numberless legends attached until but a small residuum of truth remains and the narrative is essentially false" (Remsburg, The Christ)

The key point there is that a believer in a historical Jesus must hold that some part of the Gospel narrative is essentially true even if it is the bare minimum is born in Galilee, preached (something), and was crucified by the Romans under Pontius Pilate.

Why? Because if even that threadbare narrative is essentially false they literally have no where to go as the definitive Paul gives nothing useful and everybody else is too late to verify anything.
 
...
Josephus is a case in point as very important questions are ignored:

1) Why does no Church father before the 4th century mention the Testimonium Flavianum even when it would have been in their best interests to do so?

2) Why does the Testimonium Flavianum break the flow of the narrative in the passage it appears in?

3) Why is the fact that ο χριστος ουτος ην quite literally reads "this was the ointment" (rendering the earliest version of the Testimonium Flavianum we have nonsensical) ignored?

4) Why is the fact "christ" is used in the Old Testament to refer to other people ignored?

Very good questions and thought-provoking links.
Thanks, maximara.
 
Actually the problem is deeper then that.

If you have watched James Burke's Day the Universe Changed series you know that any investigation in how the universe "works" requires a model or "structure" of how things work.

Evidence for continental drift, the existence of Troy, heliocentrism, the Norse colonization of the Americas, and the Big Bang Theory was initially rejected because the old theories with minor adjustments could "explain away" the very early evidence.

It was only when the old theory was in shambles or evidence overwhelming that the view changed. As mentioned before Horace Miner showed just how easy it is for a model to drive every step of your study right up to the conclusion.

Josephus is a case in point as very important questions are ignored:

1) Why does no Church father before the 4th century mention the Testimonium Flavianum even when it would have been in their best interests to do so?

2) Why does the Testimonium Flavianum break the flow of the narrative in the passage it appears in? 3) Why is the fact that ο χριστος ουτος ην quite literally reads "this was the ointment" (rendering the earliest version of the Testimonium Flavianum we have nonsensical) ignored?

4) Why is the fact "christ" is used in the Old Testament to refer to other people ignored?

Yes. I've hilited #2 because the intrusive nature of the T.F. is a dead give-away that it was rather clumsily inserted into the text by a later author. What are your views on the other Josephus reference to Jesus, referring to James as the brother of "Jesus who was called the Christ"?
 
Yes. I've hilited #2 because the intrusive nature of the T.F. is a dead give-away that it was rather clumsily inserted into the text by a later author. What are your views on the other Josephus reference to Jesus, referring to James as the brother of "Jesus who was called the Christ"?

I went over this several times with post 3903 likely being the best one:

The problem with the James brother of Christ comment in Josephus is that we don't know if that is what he actually wrote or that even if genuine refers to Jesus. (Carrier, Richard (2012). "Origen, Eusebius, and the Accidental Interpolation in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200". Journal of Early Christian Studies 20 (4).)

Never mind there the details are off as Josephus' James dies 62 CE just by stoning while nearly everybody else puts the death c69 CE by stoning, being thrown from top of the Temple, stoned, and finally beaten to death by laundrymen (insert tasteless joke about clean death here :D) and his successor Saint Simeon of Jerusalem is not appointed till after the siege of Jerusalem ie 70 CE

"After the martyrdom of James and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed..." (Eusebius of Caesarea, Church History, Book III, ch. 11.) Well, let's look at the list of High Priests from the removal of Ananus to the conquest of Jerusalem:

Joshua ben Damneus (ie Jesus son of Damneus) 63
Joshua ben Gamaliel 63-64
Mattathias ben Theophilus 65-66
Phannias ben Samuel 67-70

Supposedly Eusebius has Josephus right at his finger tips (he is the first person to mention the infamous Testimonium Flavianum after all) so how (bad pun time) in the name of Heaven does he mess this up? :jaw-dropp

Either Eusebius has the most insane definition of "immediately followed" in the history of the world (7 years and four High Priests) or his James is NOT the same James referenced in Josephus.

As I said before

"The Bible uses the term "christ" or "messiah" for a variety of figures, including all of the high priests and kings of ancient Israel" (Wright, Stuart A. (1995) Armageddon in Waco University of Chicago Press pg 296)

"In a characteristic typological reading he asserts that Moses himself was the first to recognize the glory of the name of Christ because he applied this title (in Greek as in the Hebrew, mashiah means simply "the anointed one") to the High Priest" (Yerushalmi, Yosef Hayim (1993) Freud's Moses Yale University Press pg 91)

So even if you take the tack the passage hasn't been tampered with (which there is good reason to suspect) it could still refer to the Jesus at the end of the passage: Jesus the son of Damneus who was made high priest by Agrippa and therefore became "christ" ie "the annotated one".


Odds are Origen saw this passage and assumed the James here was James the Just and either he or a later Christian glossed the passage. Still later a Christian scribe moved the gloss into the main text.

This is basically what Resmburg said back in 1909:

"This passage is probably genuine with the exception of the clause, "who was called Christ," which is undoubtedly an interpolation, and is generally regarded as such. Nearly all the authorities that I have quoted reject it. It was originally probably a marginal note. Some Christian reader of Josephus believing that the James mentioned was the brother of Jesus made a note of his belief in the manuscript before him, and this a transcriber afterward incorporated with the text, a very common practice in that age when purity of text was a matter of secondary importance.

The fact that the early fathers, who were acquainted with Josephus, and who would have hailed with joy even this evidence of Christ's existence, do not cite it, while Origen expressly declares that Josephus has not mentioned Christ, is conclusive proof that it did not exist until the middle of the third century or later."

The authorities Remsburg is referring to are Rev. Dr. Giles, Rev. S. Baring-Gould, Dr. Chalmers, Dean Milman, Canon Farrar, Theodor Keim, Adolph Hausrath, Rev. Dr. Hooykaas, and Alexander Campbell

More over near the end of Book II, Chapter XIII of his Commentary on Matthew Origen says that he disagrees with Josephus' placement of blame for the destruction of Jerusalem on the death of James saying that it should be attributed to Jesus. Because of this and numerous other conflicts with Origen there is serious doubt to the authenticity of the 'who was called Christ' phrase. (Painter, John (2005). Just James: The Brother of Jesus in History and Tradition. Univ of South Carolina Press ISBN 0-567-04191-3.)

In fact Painter above states:

"What he (Origen) has to say at this point is, however, not to be found in extant text of Josephus. No precise reference is given by Origen, and the quotation cannot be found in Josephus, nor does its form suggest that it is a precise quotation."


All Carrier really did is provide the scholarly work that this idea has long need but the idea itself has been around for over 100 years and back then the idea was pretty mainstream.
 
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