General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Have you had the opportunity to read through the relevant sections of Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka: Holocaust Denial and Operation Reinhard? Nick links to it in his forum signature, and while I have seen you reference it in the past I have yet to see you deal with any part of it or show any signs of having read it. If you have responded to it, please direct me to the relevant post. If the pdf format is not conducive to your reading habits, there are html pages by section of the relevant chapter (Chapter 8). See here. Anyway, I mention this because Roberto Muehlenkamp rather strongly rebuts the open-air cremation arguments of Carlo Mattogno. As Mattogno is the basis upon which your video link as well as the One Third of the Holocaust series stand, they simply become falling dominoes in this regard.
I have read it through. It would not be a productive use of my time to go into it more deeply, as Mattogno et al are already in course of replying to it in detail. There is a draft of their opening chapters here. My general conclusion was that they perhaps show cremation to be possible in principle, but not as described by the primary eye-witnesses (e.g. Wiernik's Year in Treblinka). As the eye-witnesses are the primary evidence in the absence of substantial forensic investigations as proposed by Caroline Sturdy Colls, the denier argument appears to still have weight. No doubt matters look differently if you start from a position of basic credulity, but I no longer do so.

BTW, more fuel types than wood were employed in the AR cremations as well.
Where is that in Wiernik? He speaks about a few dry twigs and bodies self-combusting doesn't he?
 
And nothing better to do with it than burn 1.5 million bodies in the convincingly documented Sonderaktion 1005, right? Let's suppose you're right. If an average victim had 20 teeth, that would be up to 30 million pieces of evidence, less any crushed or wholly consumed, remaining in a very limited area, wouldn't it? How many of them have been found?
 
last survivor of the Treblinka Uprising speaks to the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23557979
No random person he, but from the pre-war Zionist stronghold of Czestochowa where there was an outbreak of violence between Poles and Jews in the late 1930s - as was Yenkiel Wiernik of A Year in Treblinka fame. Willenberg cites Wiernik in his Revolt in Treblinka (p98), where he describes himself as "an experienced storyteller" (165) and writes "Having deceived Father, I now deceived Mother the same way" (about the fate of his sisters, 167). He also contributed along with Wiernik to a collection edited by A Donat. He's a regular on the circuit, as here.
 
[.....] Invoking 'atrocity propaganda' simply backfires on you, because revisionism has never studied other atrocities to be able to offer a coherent method of distinguishing false from real atrocities. The 'method' is entirely hypocritical and displays blatant double standards, since it is quite standard within revisionism to express total credulity towards Soviet or Allied atrocities, and to repeat proven past atrocity propaganda such as exaggerated Dresden death tolls, while simultaneously casting hyper-sceptical doubt on atrocities against Jews, and Jews alone. Meanwhile all other atrocities are simply ignored, even if they're Nazi atrocities.
Yes - but tu quoque - What else did Hilberg study except the holocaust? - and as a result he accepts Wiernik as a key source. Your double standards point applies to David Irving, probably Fritz Berg and a few mostly anonymous posters. It's not there in most revisionist books.


Most historians would actually laugh at this hopelessly naive throwback to the era of positivism [the view that "History's first aim should be to establish and narrate individual facts."]. Historians seek to establish particular narratives and explanations out of large numbers of individual facts, always aware that 'establishing facts' is entirely contingent on the quality of the evidence, and thus subject to change as more research is done.
The positivist distinction of fact (text of a given provenance) and generalisation (sociology) is highly relevant to understanding Faurisson's interpretation of the holocaust.


Whoa there, why are you ignoring everything in between the nation and the ordinary individual? [.....]
Oversimplification on my part, best if we forget I said that.


I'm sorry, but Faurisson doesn't have any strengths. His 'method' is entirely useless from the perspective of a historian or social scientist, and is simply not practiced even by people in his own ostensible discipline of literary criticism.

[.....] Faurisson has never reconstructed anything to do with the past, since all he's interested in as a professional antisemite is erasing the past as it concerns Jews.
You just don't have the measure of the man at all. Firstly, as you point out, he did have a comparative basis for his revisionism, albeit in imaginative literature, which contradicts your point about not making comparisons in other fields. That some others do not follow his methods indicates his originality. The deflating nature of his interpretation of Rimbaud's education is similar to his deflating achievement in showing the agenda of holocaust narratives. He is an atheist, not a catholic and has no particular reason to hate Jews (not that catholics do either, strictly speaking).


To take an example from my own work, in studying Wehrmacht policies towards the Soviet civilian population in the combat zone, two things became clear to me, firstly the Wehrmacht resorted to techniques of occupation and population control that had already been practiced on the western front of WWI in Belgium and France, secondly that the reactions of Soviet civilians were conditioned by their prewar experiences under Soviet rule. Both these observations, which are empirically confirmed by the source evidence, are necessarily comparative.
Presumably you have to know A and B before you can compare them. I cannot believe we would seriously disagree here.

Now there are many who think we should look much earlier to the 19th Century for the explanatory roots and causes of the Third Reich, yet they are not reviving the old Sonderweg argument in a literal sense. [.....]
This and much of the rest of what you say here is of great interest to me, but as in journalism, "what" comes before "why" and this thread is devoted to the "what".

The significance of Kremas II-V, which for decades were held up as the apotheosis of the Holocaust, has considerably receded when it is fairly obvious that they claimed less than 10% of the victims of the Holocaust. Accordingly, historians such as Tim Snyder and Wendy Lower complain of an "Auschwitz syndrome" which has to be overcome by highlighting the Shoah par balles. Neither Snyder, nor Lower, nor myself, nor any other historian of the Holocaust is going to disregard the fact of mass gassing at Auschwitz, but it simply doesn't seem to be quite the same big deal as was believed in the 1980s, [.....].
In other words, they've figured out that they're backing a losing horse, but stick with Pressac publicly for appearances' sake. Auschwitz: the surprising hidden truth.
 
Yes - but tu quoque - What else did Hilberg study except the holocaust? - and as a result he accepts Wiernik as a key source. Your double standards point applies to David Irving, probably Fritz Berg and a few mostly anonymous posters. It's not there in most revisionist books.

Hilberg taught political science for decades. It is virtually impossible to function as an academic in history or social science without being dragged beyond one's research specialism through teaching as well as exposure to other research. It is likewise impossible to get to PhD level without having encountered other topics than one's research interests.

Moreover, specialist research is then weighed up in a variety of ways against other specialist research. That would go for competition for grants, jobs, spots in more general journals, on one level. Specialist research is brought together at national and international conferences, this happened already quite early on for the Holocaust, and continues to happen - there was a conference on European resistance movements in the late 50s with a panel on Jewish resistance that included Philip Friedman, for example. There have been countless panels at the German Studies Association, AHA, ASEES and other major scholarly association conferences in the past couple of decades on the Holocaust, which exist alongside all the other panels on everything else these associations cover.

Specialist research is necessarily juxtaposed in teaching, and written up in overviews; then there are the explicit comparativists, along with the simple cases of influence where one piece of research inspires others to adopt similar approaches or interests. Plenty of scholars also change topics and study something else; thus we have Mathias Beer writing about Nazi gas vans in one essay, but the Heimatvertreibungen in another, or Donald Bloxham writing about the Holocaust and then the Armenian genocide.

One can also turn the question of influence around: Hilberg was clearly influenced by the political science and historical research agendas surrounding bureaucracy; he himself points to hearing lectures by the emigre historian Hans Rosenberg on the Prussian civil service as starting him off down his research path. This research perspective made great sense when contending with the paper trail left behind by the Third Reich, and had its parallels in other research projects that were begun independently in the 1950s and 1960s as scholars got to grips with the Nazi documents.

Revisionism, by contrast, is a rather small oeuvre of mostly publicistic pamphlets and brochures written by non-academics with political axes to grind. The core literature consists of just over 150 books and pamphlets written since the late 1940s, a third of which have been churned out by Mattogno. The value of this oeuvre is diminished by the fact that much of it cannot now be cited as it was of hilariously poor quality or simply flat-out wrong, and has been completely superseded, so we don't see too many references to Hoggan, Harwood or Rassinier any more.

It is quite clear that the majority of revisionism has been produced or published in contexts which display double standards. This certainly goes for pre-IHR revisionism; most of the 'classics' display hilarious double standards over the expulsions and Stalinist crimes. The IHR and more recently, the Barnes Review (journal and publishing house/mail order company), are almost pathologically guilty of double standards in hyping Allied and Soviet atrocities. The same goes for Juergen Graf, who is a one man contaminator of 'contemporary' revisionism due to his antisemitism, double standards, and belief in other conspiracy theories - despite all of this Mattogno still works with him.

Obviously, revisionism is also extremely isolated as a 'scholarly' endeavour, since it is down to around 3 to 5 'serious' researchers, with the majority of the authors of the 150 books and pamphlets either dead or retired. The most active of the researchers are of course monomaniacs who do nothing else but write about the Holocaust, and appear to have an extremely shaky grasp of the comparisons they do make.

Since all serious revisionists invoke Katyn, it's clear that your claim about double standards is simply falsified. Holding Katyn up as a paradigmatic crime fails entirely, because the Stalinist regime committed hundreds of other crimes which were not investigated in the same way. It doesn't really help the denier case to invoke this comparison when the serious revisionists evidently know sod all about Stalinism or the evidence for Stalinist crimes. The comparison is "asymmetric", which is a fancier way of saying it's a strawman.

The bigger problem with the Katyn gambit is that the implicit method (to wail mass graves, mass graves over and over) is simply not practiced in essentially all historiogaphical discussion of mass atrocities, never mind the social sciences. Since Katyn was one part of a mass atrocity that claimed just over 20,000 lives, the proper point of comparison would be the entire set of atrocities of similar magnitude, arguably going down to even smaller atrocities that claimed only thousands of lives, as the actual Katyn graves contained just a few thousand victims, the other mass grave sites where Polish officers were buried were never discovered by the Nazis!

One searches the literature on mass atrocities in vain for the routine discussion of mass graves and forensics, because the atrocities discussed in that literature took place in varying historical contexts - most were simply never investigated forensically because they either took place before there was a modern conception of forensics, or because they were perpetrated by regimes that successfully covered them up, or simply reported them to itself while never bothering to do forensics.

Accordingly, essentially no study of mass atrocity really bases its fact-finding exclusively, primarily or deterministically on forensics. The preferred method is to prioritise perpetrator sources while not ignoring victim or bystander sources. Typically, a mass atrocity is first known from bystander sources and then as regimes crumble, perpetrator sources become available.

For the Holocaust, as you really ought to know by now, investigations were conducted quite extensively in the 1940s - to a far greater extent than has been the case for the Armenian genocide, or indeed most other mass atrocities affecting victims into six or seven figures.

Those investigations existed in a specific historical context, i.e. they had mostly to be conducted in impoverished and devastated Eastern Europe with significant shortages of skilled personnel, who were obviously overwhelmed by the sheer scale of all Nazi atrocities, and confounded on repeated occasions by the use of mass cremation, rendering the estimates produced in 1943-45 frequently useless for posterity.

As more reliable and cheaper methods exist by which to establish the orders of magnitude of Nazi atrocities, namely documents and demographics, nobody sane is ever going to go around Eastern Europe 'counting teeth' as you demand above when we can look up the Jaeger report and find out how many Jews were murdered in Fort IX at Kaunas or Ponary outside Wilno, contrasting such a source with other Nazi documents, bystander sources, and ghetto documents. There isn't even an issue with 1005 being present since their activities on these sites is documented in contemporary reports of KdS Litauen.

That is a significantly easier mass atrocity to gauge than, say, the horrors of Ochota district during the Warsaw Uprising of 1944. The fact of mass slaughter by the Dirlewanger and Kaminski units is not disputed by any of the participants and left a variety of historical evidence. But the aftermath of the uprising saw the mass cremation of bodies by Nazi cleanup squads, and the circumstances of the massacres were such that nobody was keeping count. We will never know the exact number of people who died in the Ochota massacres in 1944. Based on the extensive efforts of the Poles to reconstruct the precise course of events using eyewitness testimonies counting up shootings house by house and street by street, it seems to be at least as great as the atrocities at Fort IX or Ponary. No doubt, one can find much higher figures circulating in the literature and on the internet, but that goes for almost all other comparable examples.

And that is far more normal for mass atrocities than the spurious precision demanded by atrocity deniers, not just for the Holocaust but a variety of other atrocities.

Which brings me onto the final problem: there are Srebrenica deniers out there, not just Serbian nationalists but a certain number of left-wing anti-imperialists including Chomsky's writing partner Edward Herman. There are also 9/11 deniers who essentially believe that there were no real victims on any of the planes on 11th September 2001 and some who seem to think there were no victims on the ground. Both of those mass atrocities - claiming just over 8,000 and just under 3,000 lives respectively - were exhaustively documented using the latest advanced techniques including DNA analysis, techniques that were unavailable in the 1940s and which could be used due to the relatively small number of victims in these cases and the considerable prosperity of the EU and United States.

In the same time-frame as Srebrenica and 9/11, civil wars in Africa have killed millions of people under conditions where it would be impossible to reconstruct the numbers precisely even through documents, which probably barely exist.

The positivist distinction of fact (text of a given provenance) and generalisation (sociology) is highly relevant to understanding Faurisson's interpretation of the holocaust.

Both Faurisson as well as revisionism as a whole have been criticised as hyperpositivist. But Faurisson's interpretation of classical positivism-era historigraphical methods was flawed: his reading of Langlois and Seignobos falls entirely flat because Langlois and Seignobos had a very different idea of what was meant by 'document' to the one Faurisson used. Faurisson confused what the German tradition calls Urkunden with all documents.

Oversimplification on my part, best if we forget I said that.






You just don't have the measure of the man at all. Firstly, as you point out, he did have a comparative basis for his revisionism, albeit in imaginative literature, which contradicts your point about not making comparisons in other fields. That some others do not follow his methods indicates his originality. The deflating nature of his interpretation of Rimbaud's education is similar to his deflating achievement in showing the agenda of holocaust narratives. He is an atheist, not a catholic and has no particular reason to hate Jews (not that catholics do either, strictly speaking).

Importing rather unique methods from literary criticism and applying them to history is not testing the methodology on other examples. In the same era as Faurisson evolved his 'Ajax method', cultural history was looking towards literary criticism more generally to locate methodologies which could illuminate texts, especially medieval and early modern texts. This transfer of techniques has proved to be enormously successful and is now fairly standard.

Moreover, the wider application of literary critical methods to historical sources has reminded scholars that most historical sources are unconsciously or consciously influenced by literary and cultural traditions. Autobiographies, memoirs and free-form written testimonies, which contrary to denier delusions exist for other periods and other people than just the Holocaust, are frequently written under the influence of specific literary traditions and it is helpful to bear those in mind when reading them. Identifying the literary genres and influences can of course help date older texts but it's also very useful for modern texts.

If one reexamines for example the Gerstein report, the literariness of the text, its breathlessness of description (long run-on sentences) and use of repetition should be swiftly apparent. The literary artifices become in this case distortions of the description of the historical event that Gerstein was seeking to convey. As we have other texts by him from the time, as well as other sources on Gerstein, there is little room for the claim that Gerstein didn't visit the camp, especially when there are numerous other sources corroborating much of what he says.

The difference between literary criticism and historiography is that literature can focus on 'key' texts, sometimes organised into canons, and is not obliged to be systematic. A literary analysis of a single text is simply a literary analysis. It is not history, and comments based on the singular analysis isolated from other sources fail the basic requirements of the historical method.

The historical analysis of texts considers several texts together in order to reconstruct events through the eyes of several participants or observers. We have all seen cases where a single-source account survives in a history book, no matter what the period or topic, but the norm is to find several contrasting, converging or corroborating accounts. The method of corroboration is critical because historians of all epochs are confronted by the issue of sorting out fact from distortion. Politicians, priests and other historical eyewitnesses routinely lie or offer inaccurate accounts of the events they describe. Historical criticism cross-examines witnesses by contrasting them with each other and scrutinising them in the light of other types of sources.

Faurisson's 'Ajax method' did not do this; it isolated a few 'star witnesses' and held them up as 'the most important witness' to the events in question, and moreover the Faurissonian tradition incorrigibly isolates eyewitness testimony from other types of sources. That is why Mattogno analyses witnesses in one set of chapters then fantasises about documents in other chapters, keeping the two source types thoroughly separate.

As for Faurission's antisemitism, it's rather pointless to try apologising and obfuscating for the man, when he is such an obvious Jew-hater.

Presumably you have to know A and B before you can compare them. I cannot believe we would seriously disagree here.

Such an argument is not necessarily valid in historiography because what does 'knowing' A and B mean here? Someone can easily discover a diachronic continuity and be forced to reconstruct all stages of the 'comparison', or might be inspired by A to look in more detail at B and end up advancing our knowledge of B.

On the other hand, some comparisons are ritualistically invoked and become less plausible as research develops, and differences are exposed. A good example of this happening would be fascism theory. While there are many points of similarity between Nazism and Italian fascism, the differences became all too apparent by the 1980s.

This and much of the rest of what you say here is of great interest to me, but as in journalism, "what" comes before "why" and this thread is devoted to the "what".

Again: historiography places significantly more emphasis on why and that influences the what. In asking why does something happen, historians seek out new topics and new source bases in order to better illuminate the core question. They also use comparisons, as I have pointed out. Research into Nazism and the Holocaust has obviously not stood still in the past 30 years, and the shape of both subjects looks rather different today simply because hundreds if not thousands of historians have explored fresh territory, all of which feeds back into the understanding of the whole, and thus the bigger picture looks very different.

In other words, they've figured out that they're backing a losing horse, but stick with Pressac publicly for appearances' sake. Auschwitz: the surprising hidden truth.

Nothing of the sort, I'm afraid. Wendy Lower's PhD and first book was on Nazi occupation of Zhytomyr district; Timothy Snyder worked on East European nationalism and also examined the ethnic cleansing of Poles in Volhynia by the UPA. They are both working academics who teach and and trying to figure out how to narrate and explain much bigger subjects than Auschwitz.

Since both are East Europeanists, they have observed that the conventional old-school historiography of the Holocaust seemed to be more fixated on things like the death camps and notions of 'modernity' which do not stand up to scrutiny when one goes out into the field in Volhynia or Zhytomyr regions, where things were very different. Nonetheless, Snyder still has a chapter in 'Bloodlands' entitled 'the death factories', based largely around Treblinka.

Current consensus breaks down the Holocaust death toll as follows: nearly 50% inside the 1941 borders of the USSR, i.e. about 2.6 million, with less than half a million of that number deported westwards to the death camps; shootings claimed well over 2 million lives in the USSR, Poland and Yugoslavia, ghettos, camps and reservations like Transnistria claimed up to 700,000 lives with the precise balance between shootings and starvation constantly being revised in the direction of shooting; and 2.6 million deported to the death camps, with at least 100,000 dying after selection for labour at Auschwitz largely from starvation, and copious evidence of deaths in transit to the Reinhard camps. Accordingly, the death camps represent less than 50% of the Holocaust, and Auschwitz is less than 20% of the Holocaust.

It is thus unsurprising when historians of Eastern Europe criticise an 'Auschwitz syndrome' when Auschwitz was not representative of 80% of the Holocaust. The death camps may be a much bigger proportion, but the circumstances of deportation to the Reinhard camps place them in a much more regional context than Auschwitz, which took in victims from across Europe.

Jews deported to Treblinka and Sobibor were routinely mown down in 'local resettlements' of the elderly and transpotunfaehige, or simply to reduce the numbers in order that the ghetto fit onto the available train, or because there were no railheads nearby. They died like flies en route in the summer heat, and were also sieved on some occasions to be sent to forced labour camps nearby. These experiences do not match the experiences of Drancy and Westerbork in western Europe.

In the popular imagination, especially in France during the 1970s and 1980s, and in West Germany during the 1960s and 1970s, 'Auschwitz' appeared as a kind of be-all and end-all. In West Germany, 'Auschwitz' became the metonym for the Holocaust as a whole, until the term 'Holocaust' became more current after 1978. Deniers reacted to the iconic status of Auschwitz by selecting it for their main focus of attack.

Unfortunately for you, that attack has been a consistent failure; it has never succeeded in mobilising interest among academics or a wider audience in the public sphere. So the research agendas of historians of the Holocaust or modern Europe have simply never been set by revisionists. Therefore it would be a fantasy to imagine that negationism has had any kind of impact when there are far more obvious and major factors at work, e.g. the opening of East European archives after the end of the Cold War, and a greater number of people moving into the Holocaust field who understand East European languages.
 
I have read it through. It would not be a productive use of my time to go into it more deeply, as Mattogno et al are already in course of replying to it in detail. There is a draft of their opening chapters here. My general conclusion was that they perhaps show cremation to be possible in principle, but not as described by the primary eye-witnesses (e.g. Wiernik's Year in Treblinka). As the eye-witnesses are the primary evidence in the absence of substantial forensic investigations as proposed by Caroline Sturdy Colls, the denier argument appears to still have weight. No doubt matters look differently if you start from a position of basic credulity, but I no longer do so.

Ok, but what really is the significance of not being described in 100% detail by Wiernik? I have not seen much in Wiernik's description which has been contradicted by other witnesses for cremations at Treblinka. Indeed it has been quite the opposite, such as confirmations of SS Oberscharführer Floss's visit to the camp to take charge of the cremation activities (noted by several other sources).

Your position seems to be akin to one of Hannover's favorite memes: If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't (in a total sense). I am inferring it from you, as you don't seem to make any real solid point in the above. Your general conclusion of "cremation to be possible in principle, but not as described by the primary eye-witnesses" is kind of left open.

Of course, this type of position is the fallacy of the excluded middle, but it also suffers from a child like consideration of epistemological practices where sources=truth. Simply because Wiernik (writing several months after escaping the camp, with size and time limitations, and still in fear for his life) did not go into much technical detail in terms of how the cremations were conducted does not mean that the cremations he reported did not take place. To expect other wise is almost deserving of ridicule.

Historians and other academics routinely recognize that witnesses, and other sources for that matter, do not always speak on 100% of the event but speak from a particular angle based on their particular vantage point. They must be interrogated and approached that way, and then if possible should be put into conversation with other types of sources (in contrast, deniers tend to isolate sources).

In Wiernik's description of cremations, it is fairly obvious that his focus is based upon the sheer horror of the events that he witnessed. This is pretty obvious from his language (e.g. "not even Lucifer could possibly have created a worse hell than this") and the events that he focuses on, such as the bursting of pregnant bodies exposing fetuses to the flames, etc. Not that surprising, as seeing thousands of bodies cremated could be quite a shocking experience, as I am sure you would agree.

As for your lack of credulity, the big thing is to not forget to also read denier arguments in the same critical fashion.

Where is that in Wiernik? He speaks about a few dry twigs and bodies self-combusting doesn't he?

Not so much, despite what Denierbud or some other denier might have you believe in their less-than-honest renditions of Wiernik's text.

During the first attempts at cremation, Wiernik said that corpses were soaked in gasoline but that the burning was still not entirely successful (male bodies still not completely cremated). This method was replaced by creating pyres, for which Wiernik does not describe the stacking or placing of wood underneath the grate. Concluding therefor that no wood was employed in the cremations, or 'a few dry twigs' as you call them, because Wiernik did not describe them is absurd; it might not have been considered a worthwhile issue to include in a rushed work, as how does a fire of this nature start without wood anyway? I am sure Wiernik would have adjusted his account had he known that half a century later some people cared to know how many slabs of wood it took to cremate the corpses.

Besides, we can fill the void left by Wiernik (as happens vice-versa) through some other witnesses; thus, putting the sources into conversation with one another. For instance Heinrich Matthes said: "The cremation took place in such a way that railway lines and concrete blocks were placed together. The corpses were piled on these rails. Brushwood was put under the rails. The wood was doused with petrol."

But simply isolating Wiernik, and basing whether Treblinka cremations took place by the details included in Wiernik's account, is a faulty approach.
 
And nothing better to do with it than burn 1.5 million bodies in the convincingly documented Sonderaktion 1005, right? Let's suppose you're right. If an average victim had 20 teeth, that would be up to 30 million pieces of evidence, less any crushed or wholly consumed, remaining in a very limited area, wouldn't it? How many of them have been found?

I've already addressed the basic fallacy of this in the longer post, and also made several remarks in previous posts which you have not responded to. Aktion 1005 is better documented than you seem to realise, in that there are not only references to this action in a 'bald' sense (in personnel files and other reports), but also explicit documents from KdS Litauen about 1005's operations in Lithuania.

Aktion 1005 (defined as all mass cremations outside of death camp type sites) did not cremate 1.5 million corpses; the number so cremated was certainly lower than that. I doubt that much more than 1/3 to 40% of the bodies of the 2 million Jews shot in Poland and the Soviet Union were cremated; the rest were discovered in mass graves. Well over 1 million bodies of murdered Jews were located after the war.

The investigations of 1005 sites where there was cremation reveals fairly consistently that bones, human remains and cremains were found on-site, just as they were at Treblinka et al. A close reading of these reports could likely find many mentioning human teeth, but it is quite clear that no one thought this was a useful way of working out how many dead there once were in the grave, not least because the sites were unpleasant; remains could have been scattered farther afield, and it was not going to be a reliable method of yielding an exact result.

Thus, nobody was looking for 'teeth' much less trying to count them - the argument about 'teeth' is therefore just plain silly. Cremains and human remains were found there; the relevant investigators in Poland and the Soviet Union did not anticipate a silly denier internet meme from the late 2000s and early 2010s. They did anticipate posterity's desire to know more about the sites, and left descriptions as well as photos which indicate that there were human remains there; plus measurements of grave sizes as best as could be determined.

Together with the documentary and eyewitness evidence for the killings, plus the control check of demographics, that is all more than sufficient evidence for most people.

Nobody is going to go back to those sites, and dig them up just to satisfy deniers, who do not amount to a significant lobby, especially not when they are generally marked as grave sites. The involvement of 1005 more or less guarantees that the sites were big enough to be commemorated, by the way. I doubt there are more than a tiny handful of former mass cremation sites which are currently unmarked and uncommemorated.
 
[.....] Of course, this type of position is the fallacy of the excluded middle, but it also suffers from a child like consideration of epistemological practices where sources=truth. Simply because Wiernik (writing several months after escaping the camp, with size and time limitations, and still in fear for his life) did not go into much technical detail in terms of how the cremations were conducted does not mean that the cremations he reported did not take place. To expect other wise is almost deserving of ridicule.
What are you talking about? Firstly, there is no such thing as a fallacy of excluded middle. There is a law of excluded middle ("A is B or not-B"). Secondly, there could be no better instance of child-like epistemology than taking Wiernik's pamphlet at its word. It reads just like an artfully constructed piece of wartime invective, down to the characteristic assurance "No imagination, no matter how daring, could possibly conceive of anything like what I have seen and lived through" (page 5) which is as typical of a fraud as "Once upon a time" is of a fairy tale. Voices like his do not appear in print (this was before digital typesetting) without planning, without an intended audience, without someone who wishes to influence (or at least entertain & profit from) that audience. The book is easily accessible (e.g. here).

Historians and other academics routinely recognize that witnesses, and other sources for that matter, do not always speak on 100% of the event but speak from a particular angle based on their particular vantage point. [.....]
You don't have to be a historian or other academic to recognize that, it's common sense.

In Wiernik's description of cremations, it is fairly obvious that his focus is based upon the sheer horror of the events that he witnessed. This is pretty obvious from his language (e.g. "not even Lucifer could possibly have created a worse hell than this") and the events that he focuses on, such as the bursting of pregnant bodies exposing fetuses to the flames, etc. Not that surprising, as seeing thousands of bodies cremated could be quite a shocking experience, as I am sure you would agree.
Nothing is less obvious than that he was influenced by the horror of what he saw. He is obviously an artful author who creates a cumulative effect, heightened by contrasts. There is also a sensationalist element (the nude women, the finger pointing at heaven). He obviously intends to evoke sympathy and outrage in his audience, who are probably Jews open to a Zionist message (hence the vituperation not just against German "fiends" & Ukrainians but also "western culture" (page 5) to which many Jews were attracted and partly assimilated, but also repelled (the "ordeal of civility").

As for your lack of credulity, the big thing is to not forget to also read denier arguments in the same critical fashion.
Fair point.

During the first attempts at cremation, Wiernik said that corpses were soaked in gasoline but that the burning was still not entirely successful (male bodies still not completely cremated).
Motor fuel makes a large impact on dry wood and leaves as it generates a ball of flame (very dangerous on a bonfire), but it has little effect on flesh due to the internal moisture. There would be no significant difference between men and woman, as he alleges.

[.....] we can fill the void left by Wiernik (as happens vice-versa) through some other witnesses; thus, putting the sources into conversation with one another. For instance Heinrich Matthes said: "The cremation took place in such a way that railway lines and concrete blocks were placed together. The corpses were piled on these rails. Brushwood was put under the rails. The wood was doused with petrol."
This is not critical thinking. You have to follow the succession of witnesses and see how they cross pollinate each other - as attempted by Carlo Mattogno, for example, in Treblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp, when he shows the 1942 map that Wiernik copies his own map of Treblinka from. Some other witnesses are equally implausible. It's not unreasonable to ask for forensic (or archaeological) inquiry in these circumstances.
 
Secondly, there could be no better instance of child-like epistemology than taking Wiernik's pamphlet at its word. It reads just like an artfully constructed piece of wartime invective, down to the characteristic assurance "No imagination, no matter how daring, could possibly conceive of anything like what I have seen and lived through" (page 5) which is as typical of a fraud as "Once upon a time" is of a fairy tale.

Got any evidence of this assertion? For example, you could use Google books to gather non-Holocaust-related examples of memoirs that include phrases similar to the one quoted and show that an unusually high percentage of this group of memoirs turned out to to fraudulent.

Otherwise, the claim is merely your opinion.

Voices like his do not appear in print (this was before digital typesetting) without planning, without an intended audience, without someone who wishes to influence (or at least entertain & profit from) that audience. The book is easily accessible (e.g. here).

Even if this were true, why does it follow that any misstatements (or even excluded details) in Wernick's description of the cremation process are evidence that said cremations never happened?
 
No random person he, but from the pre-war Zionist stronghold of Czestochowa where there was an outbreak of violence between Poles and Jews in the late 1930s - as was Yenkiel Wiernik of A Year in Treblinka fame. Willenberg cites Wiernik in his Revolt in Treblinka (p98), where he describes himself as "an experienced storyteller" (165) and writes "Having deceived Father, I now deceived Mother the same way" (about the fate of his sisters, 167). He also contributed along with Wiernik to a collection edited by A Donat. He's a regular on the circuit, as here.

No one claimed he was and how does this in any way shape or form detract from his testimony?

You have a case to prove here now, what evidence do you have that he was not there and not involved, because reading between the lines that is what you appear to be suggesting.
 
Matthew Ellard said:
The Germans also had petrol. Next question.
EtienneSC said:
And nothing better to do with it than burn 1.5 million bodies in the convincingly documented Sonderaktion 1005, right? Let's suppose you're right.
My aim was to simply show that the holocaust denier video you offered was incorrect concerning its claim that the cremation method used at Treblinka was impossible. I have done that and that alone.

EtienneSC said:
If an average victim had 20 teeth, that would be up to 30 million pieces of evidence, less any crushed or wholly consumed, remaining in a very limited area, wouldn't it? How many of them have been found?
That would be a different question. I have seen eyewitness evidence of teeth being seen, as presented by Roberto Muehlenkamp. I assume other teeth were either destroyed or exist in the ground with the other human bones and tissue observed by Justice Lukaszkiewicz's foensic investigation. I will wait for a historian or forensic archaeologist to offer me more information. ( I know my limits)
 

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No random person he, but from the pre-war Zionist stronghold of Czestochowa where there was an outbreak of violence between Poles and Jews in the late 1930s - as was Yenkiel Wiernik of A Year in Treblinka fame. Willenberg cites Wiernik in his Revolt in Treblinka (p98), where he describes himself as "an experienced storyteller" (165) and writes "Having deceived Father, I now deceived Mother the same way" (about the fate of his sisters, 167). He also contributed along with Wiernik to a collection edited by A Donat. He's a regular on the circuit, as here.

It takes real nerve to take Willenberg's attempt to comfort his mother by pretending his sisters hadn't been murdered and use that as evidence that he's lying about the mass murders occurring in the camp.
 
What are you talking about? Firstly, there is no such thing as a fallacy of excluded middle. There is a law of excluded middle ("A is B or not-B").

Nope, there is the fallacy of the excluded middle, although it takes many names as well, such as the false dilemma.

Secondly, there could be no better instance of child-like epistemology than taking Wiernik's pamphlet at its word.

Who did that?

Wiernik's account earns credibility as aspects of it are interrogated by examining other sources and its context. For instance, when Stroop reported that several thousand Jews were brought to Treblinka II from the spring 1943 uprising and "destroyed," Wiernik discusses the arrival and brutal murder of Jews from Warsaw during that same period. When Wiernik discusses the prisoner uprising from August 1943, his statements can be contrasted and stood against several other accounts. And then, all of these intra-camp points are to be seen in the context of wider Nazi policy against the Jews during the war, the fact that 700,000+ Jews were sent to Treblinka and then seemingly dropped off the face of the Earth, and postwar Soviet and Polish investigators discovering the entire area to be covered by cinders and ash, human remains numerous personal belongings (some clearly Jewish in nature by their religious markings or cultural symbolism), etc. This information all points in a very clear direction.

Nothing is less obvious than that he was influenced by the horror of what he saw. He is obviously an artful author who creates a cumulative effect, heightened by contrasts. There is also a sensationalist element (the nude women, the finger pointing at heaven). He obviously intends to evoke sympathy and outrage in his audience, who are probably Jews open to a Zionist message (hence the vituperation not just against German "fiends" & Ukrainians but also "western culture" (page 5) to which many Jews were attracted and partly assimilated, but also repelled (the "ordeal of civility").

As with FluffyPersian and Dcdrac, I am having difficult making out your ultimate point with all of this about Wiernik.

Motor fuel makes a large impact on dry wood and leaves as it generates a ball of flame (very dangerous on a bonfire), but it has little effect on flesh due to the internal moisture. There would be no significant difference between men and woman, as he alleges.

I would need to see more evidence than just your word that there is no significant difference in the cremation of male & female bodies, as I would think males would be more difficult (in terms of larger body size, larger bone structure, less body fat percentage).

This is not critical thinking. You have to follow the succession of witnesses and see how they cross pollinate each other - as attempted by Carlo Mattogno, for example, in Treblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp, when he shows the 1942 map that Wiernik copies his own map of Treblinka from. Some other witnesses are equally implausible. It's not unreasonable to ask for forensic (or archaeological) inquiry in these circumstances.

Well, Mattogno is rather unconvincing in his attempt, whatever he is trying to do. I am not sure he really argues for cross pollination to explain the witnesses; he actually never uses that term anywhere in his book, nor variations of the more liberal "inspiration".

A few times he uses variations of the word "plagiarize", largely directed at two people: 1) Richard Glazar, who supposedly plagiarized several Treblinka survivors for his book in the 1990s, and 2) Wiernik, for allegedly plagiarizing and drawing inspiration from a November 1942 map of Treblinka to make a map of the camp to enclose with his 1944 work. Mattogno's allegation here is rather easily shown to be false. The map was in Polish, Wiernik's work was written in Yiddish, for one. If Wiernik wanted to use the map for his book, why not unify the language? Wiernik also testified about drawing his own map of the camp, which was eventually published in 1945, which differed significantly from the Polish map enclosed in his book. Images of the Polish map and Wiernik's own map are presented side by side in the critique of Mattogno, Graf, and Kues on p.307, showing that no plagiarism took place.

Anyway, if you stand by the cross-pollination thesis (more akin to the argument of Samuel Crowell than Mattogno, who seems much more about "black propaganda" from what I have seen) that has its own problems too, especially with regard to postwar trials of former Nazi guards. Those perpetrators by and large confessed to the crimes of homicidal gassings at the camps. At that point the cross pollination thesis runs into serious trouble, as it is no longer a group of writers freely drawing inspiration and plagiarizing aspects from each other's tales (as the pollination thesis seems to go), but it has to be firmly institutionalized on an international level through the trials and their proceedings. Thus the inevitable and necessary questions of who institutionalized the facts? how were they institutionalized (e.g. presenting scripts read and support)? How did the prosecutors and courts of Austria, France, the USSR, West Germany, East Germany, Poland, etc, coordinate their activities and unify the scripts that were to be endorsed? Why has not even a drop of evidence of this international conspiracy ever come to light, despite going on now for 68+ years? Critical thinking need be applied.
 
Got any evidence of this assertion? For example, you could use Google books to gather non-Holocaust-related examples of memoirs that include phrases similar to the one quoted and show that an unusually high percentage of this group of memoirs turned out to to fraudulent.

Otherwise, the claim is merely your opinion.
That's a reasonable challenge in these days of digitised books. OK, google the phrases "my own eyes" and "would not have believed" and look at the results on the first page. For me, these are:
Chaos unseen - a moonwriting novel
Henry Fielding - the history of Tom Jones (three times)
Aleeha Travis - Morakduum, the Reforging [another novel]
A citation from The Novelist's Magazine
Sharr Ray by Wm Hunt [another novel]
Tina Brooks McKinney - Snapped [another novel, apparently]
Ballantyne's Novelist's Library
Martin Booth - The Reichenbach Problem ["a work of fiction"]
So 8 out of 8 of the highest ranked results are or involve fiction. Adding "memoir" to the search still seems to yield mostly fiction, though there is "The Hitler Kiss, a memoir of the Czech Resistance", where it is used humorously to introduce a story about a monkey in a house. These phrases are regularly used to induce people to suspend disbelief.


Even if this were true, why does it follow that any misstatements (or even excluded details) in Wernick's description of the cremation process are evidence that said cremations never happened?
My argument is only that if Wiernik is unreliable, his memoir is not evidence that cremations occurred. That is significant as he is a primary eye-witness, but it's only a part of a larger jigsaw, as we might agree.
 
No one claimed he was and how does this in any way shape or form detract from his testimony?

You have a case to prove here now, what evidence do you have that he was not there and not involved, because reading between the lines that is what you appear to be suggesting.
He was there (at Treblinka I), but not directly involved (in the mass killings at Treblinka II) according to his own account. Despite this, he appears in episode 5 of the BBC's The Nazis - a Warning from History (1997), describing the killing operations as if he'd seen them.

It takes real nerve to take Willenberg's attempt to comfort his mother by pretending his sisters hadn't been murdered and use that as evidence that he's lying about the mass murders occurring in the camp.
He is a witness about the camp in general and the revolt there, but not about the killing operations. According to his own testimony, he heard about the gas chambers from Jankiel Wiernik (Willenberg: Surviving Treblinka. Blackwell, 1989, 125-6). Perhaps you are right about his sisters - the older generation in Britain would sometimes keep secrets about illness and such like ("what good would it do?") and perhaps it was the same in Poland.
 
What are you talking about? Firstly, there is no such thing as a fallacy of excluded middle. There is a law of excluded middle ("A is B or not-B").

There certainly is a fallacy of the excluded middle, which is another way of saying false dilemma. Invoking the law of the excluded middle from logic is a classic example why formal logic does not always work very well on inferences from human behaviour; including the interpretation of texts and descriptions produced by inevitably fallible human beings.

Secondly, there could be no better instance of child-like epistemology than taking Wiernik's pamphlet at its word.

But that's what you're doing, in order to 'debunk' Wiernik. The very fact that you continue to belabour a discussion of a single witness is grossly unscientific.

Conventional historiography doesn't take anyone at their word; their word is contrasted with other evidence and corroborated. Only when there is a single source, as for example we find with Thucydides and the Peloponnesian wars, do other methods like internal consistency come to the very forefront, although they are used to assess multiple-source events too, of course, alongside the basic methods of corroboration and convergence.

I've just read a study of violence in Ukraine from 1905-1933 by Felix Schnell, entitled Raeume der Gewalt, and in several places Schnell discusses atrocities during the Russian Civil War for which there are only two contradictory accounts. He summarises the two contradictory accounts, both of which were evidently as "literary" as Wiernik's testimony, notes the agreement on result (dead people) but then has to assess which account is more plausible.

That is a quite routine situation in historiography; this is why one finds countless historians stating that a source is coloured by this or that distorting factor, such as their cultural-religious background, but the events described are true because the source is yet another example of evidence regarding the events.

It is quite routine to note of course the existence of nationalist or racist attitudes present in a source and discount them in order to try and assess the behaviour of the 'others' described in the source; since there are countless examples in human history where we cannot compare sources from two 'sides'.

This means that the conventional method is not to invoke literalism or throw one's hands up in horror and throw the source away because a historical witness dared to invoke metaphor, simile or hyperbole, or because they were 'biased'.

History students are taught about 'bias' and most soon overcome the temptation to invoke 'bias' in a schematic way, because they rapidly become aware that all sources are 'biased'. They learn to control for and compensate for the 'bias' by recognising where the biases come from and what they might imply.

Dismissing sources because of supposed 'bias', as you do later on, is the mark of a rank amateur.

It reads just like an artfully constructed piece of wartime invective, down to the characteristic assurance "No imagination, no matter how daring, could possibly conceive of anything like what I have seen and lived through" (page 5) which is as typical of a fraud as "Once upon a time" is of a fairy tale. Voices like his do not appear in print (this was before digital typesetting) without planning, without an intended audience, without someone who wishes to influence (or at least entertain & profit from) that audience. The book is easily accessible (e.g. here).

FluffyPersian has already challenged you to prove that a memoir claiming that events were 'beyond imagination' is characteristic of fraud. This would be a very tall order, because there is an enormous corpus of memoirs written by veterans of the two world wars, as well as other modern conflicts, which resort to similar rhetorical tropes.

Cherrypicking such common literary devices does not address the totality of the memoir. On this thread I've challenged deniers several times to analyse and parse the entirety of Wiernik's memoir, which runs to just over 20,000 words, and to do so by first noting the points that are confirmed by other sources, especially documentary sources.

The number of such points is considerably larger than you might realise, because Wiernik mentions named SS men who are documented as present at the camp, as well as even Trawnikis who show up in contemporary written sources, and notes the arrival of deportation transports there which are also perfectly well documented: the Miedzyrzec Podlaski, Warsaw '42, Warsaw spring '43 and Bulgarian transports all come immediately to mind.

Given that Wiernik wrote his memoir in occupied Warsaw, these points of corroboration are powerful proof that he was indeed present at the camp, as it would be rather difficult for such information to be available to unnamed underground observers in Warsaw in order that someone could fabricate a story from whole cloth.

And that's the problem deniers face when criticising a testimony like this: they routinely avoid making basic comments such as whether someone was actually at the camp in question, a point which would be extremely germane to the issue under dispute. Was Wiernik there or not? Yes or no?

The well-poisoning remarks about 'propaganda' ignore historical context: printing facilities in Polish hands enabled the production of literally hundreds of underground newspapers as well as numerous pamphlets and brochures like Wiernik's during the Nazi occupation of Poland. The mere fact that this was printed is not sufficient evidence to dismiss it as lying propaganda.

Moreover, it ignores the fact that there are several other lengthy accounts that were not published, dating from even earlier or from the same time-frame. Oneg Shabes took down the account of Abraham Krzepicki in 1942, which is virtually of comparable length; he escaped in the autumn of that year so his testimony doesn't include any description of cremation but it matches on all kinds of other points. Oskar Strawczynski wrote a much longer manuscript already before liberation, which was not published at the time, even after liberation, because it was rather coruscatingly cynical about the behaviour of some of the Jewish workers and kapos spared as Sonderkommandos at Treblinka.

There are shorter accounts from several other escapees written down before liberation, including OS taking down a brief testimony by Rabinowicz and an account by David Milgroim which reached the outside world via the 'Working Group' in Slovakia.

You don't have to be a historian or other academic to recognize that, it's common sense.

Then why aren't you practicing what you say is common sense? Specifically, why aren't you comparing Wiernik systematically with other eyewitnesses to Treblinka and with other sources about Treblinka?

Why the Wiernik fixation? We've had in the past a denier named Saggy witter on and on about 'Wiernik, Wiesel and Mueller', to the point where it will alienate your intended audience if you don't step up your game and discuss more than these few icons.

Nothing is less obvious than that he was influenced by the horror of what he saw. He is obviously an artful author who creates a cumulative effect, heightened by contrasts. There is also a sensationalist element (the nude women, the finger pointing at heaven). He obviously intends to evoke sympathy and outrage in his audience, who are probably Jews open to a Zionist message (hence the vituperation not just against German "fiends" & Ukrainians but also "western culture" (page 5) to which many Jews were attracted and partly assimilated, but also repelled (the "ordeal of civility").

:dl:

Your notion that Wiernik's intended audience were Jews "open to a Zionist message" is quite hilarious. By 1944 Wiernik would be quite well aware that there were as good as no Jews of any persuasion left alive in Warsaw. His original intended audience consisted of Poles, which is why he wrote in Polish. He wanted to address 'the world'

Even when Wiernik's memoirs reached the outside world and were translated into English and Yiddish in New York, this was done by the NON-ZIONIST Bund, which is why the web version of Wiernik in English clearly states that it was published by the "AMERICAN REPRESENTATION of the General Jewish Workers' Union of Poland".

So, fail.

The criticism of 'western culture' indicted the Germans as supposed Kulturtraeger. That is why there are further condemnations of the Germans in the memoir, in keeping with a collective wartime discourse in Poland that saw Nazi occupation as utterly barbaric, racist and arrogant, which it was.

(One might note that had the Nazis 'only' deported all Jews to the east that the criticism would be exactly the same, because the systematic deportation of peoples, of the kind already practiced by the Nazis in 1939 on Poles and Jews, was hitherto primarily associated with very un-western cultures like the Ottoman Empire, Tsarist Russia and the Soviet Union.)

It is a misreading to think that Wiernik is indicting all of western culture in his testimony. He was quite well aware that his first readers would be Catholic Poles who saw themselves as very much part of a western culture, and that the 'world' he was appealing to was also part of a western culture.

Motor fuel makes a large impact on dry wood and leaves as it generates a ball of flame (very dangerous on a bonfire), but it has little effect on flesh due to the internal moisture. There would be no significant difference between men and woman, as he alleges.

The first point you make here may well be true, but simply confirms what Wiernik was trying to convey: the initial experiments at cremation didn't work very well. That is a point echoed by other sources.

As for the differences between men and women, women have a higher body fat percentage than men, the difference is significant enough that the greater ease of cremating women than men is noted by other witnesses independently of Wiernik (eg from Auschwitz), and it accordingly makes sense that cremating mixed groups - making sure the corpses of women were laid next to the corpses of men - would be a more efficient means of achieving sustained mass cremation.

There are enough independent remarks by crematorium directors etc to confirm that once cremation has got underway, body fat plays a huge role in sustaining the process, so that in this scenario, the extra pounds of body fat found in female corpses would be multiplied considerably. This is a very schematic rendition, but even with only a 50/50 split, in a pyre of 3,000 corpses, just one extra pound by weight of body fat for each female corpse compared to the male corpses would produce 1,500lb of extra fat, which is a significant enough increase that it would help accelerate and sustain the cremation.

Seizing on the remark about women being used as 'kindling' and imagining that the Sonderkommandos set light to a female corpse in order to kindle the entire pyre is the kind of ultra-stupid literalism for which deniers have become infamous. Wiernik's account as a whole makes it clear that these were mass cremations, for starters.

This is not critical thinking. You have to follow the succession of witnesses and see how they cross pollinate each other - as attempted by Carlo Mattogno, for example, in Treblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp, when he shows the 1942 map that Wiernik copies his own map of Treblinka from. Some other witnesses are equally implausible.

Your belief system has come to a sorry pass when you claim that comparing witness testimonies isn't critical thinking. Seriously, listen to yourself.

Mattogno failed to prove significant cross pollination because he routinely ignored demonstrably independent testimonies - in 2002, when the screed you link to was first published, some were not yet published but had lain in archives, like Strawczynski's account. Arad used Strawczynski in his 1987 book, indeed Arad used about 90 eyewitnesses to the Reinhard camps; we now know of more than 300.

The claim about the maps is bogus, as we established in the critique and as was established nearly seven years ago.

If nothing else, you should seriously think twice before repeating any claim made by Mattogno, Graf, Kues or any other denier, lest you find that someone already examined the claim and found it to be as bogus as that one was.

Each assertion of a false claim undermines your credibility and suggests you are overly credulous of revisionist claims, without having done the proper research and reading necessary to engage in serious discussion about this subject.

It's not unreasonable to ask for forensic (or archaeological) inquiry in these circumstances.

But forensic inquiry was already done in 1944-45 in this case. And archaeological inquiry has now been done for all three Reinhard camps plus Chelmno in the 1990s and 2000s.

What you cannot do, before you go haring off down the usual denier garden path, is assess this evidence independently of the documentary and eyewitness evidence for all three Reinhard camps, considered together because they were a documented set and because many of the perpetrators moved from one to the other. You have to assess the documents and witnesses together - some examples have already been mentioned above, like noting the fact that witnesses refer to documented SS men known to have served at these camps.

Heck, just assessing the sum total of documents that explicitly mention Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Einsatz/Aktion Reinhardt or which refer to Globocnik's tasking or connect by a bare step or two with the camps would be a start. That's never happened within revisionism and I doubt it ever will.
 
So in other words he did withness the events at Treblinka.
so therefore any attempt to say he did not founders completly either directly or by implication.
 
Hilberg was clearly influenced by the political science and historical research agendas surrounding bureaucracy; he himself points to hearing lectures by the emigre historian Hans Rosenberg on the Prussian civil service as starting him off down his research path.
A biography of Hilberg would be interesting given the cultural currency of his work. I always had him down as a monomaniacal Zionist, but he is probably a more complex character.

[.....] Revisionism, by contrast, is a rather small oeuvre of mostly publicistic pamphlets and brochures written by non-academics with political axes to grind.
Non-academics? Several revisionists started as academics and then had their reputations trashed by those with their own "political axes to grind". Robert Faurisson we have discussed. You think Vidal-Naquet & Georges Wellers were apolitical? Then there is Roger Garaudy, who had a major reputation as a communist scholar who converted to Islam (there was an excellent recent documentary about him by Algerian journalists). In the USA there was Arthur Butz, who taught engineering. It is ridiculous, when those who have written on revisionism - Germar Rudolf, Henri Roques and others - are refused degrees, which are a prerequisite to academic status, to then use their status as "non-academics" against them.

[.....] If one reexamines for example the Gerstein report, the literariness of the text, its breathlessness of description (long run-on sentences) and use of repetition should be swiftly apparent. The literary artifices become in this case distortions of the description of the historical event that Gerstein was seeking to convey. As we have other texts by him from the time, as well as other sources on Gerstein, there is little room for the claim that Gerstein didn't visit the camp, especially when there are numerous other sources corroborating much of what he says.
This is the guy who confessed to killing 25 million Jews that Hilberg selectively cites, right? I bet having an Allied soldier standing on your testicles does wonders for your literary style!

[.....] The method of corroboration is critical because historians of all epochs are confronted by the issue of sorting out fact from distortion. Politicians, priests and other historical eyewitnesses routinely lie or offer inaccurate accounts of the events they describe. Historical criticism cross-examines witnesses by contrasting them with each other and scrutinising them in the light of other types of sources.
The problem is when two or more people tell the same or similar lies. You have to look for non-verbal testimony, don't you? The main problem with your method thgat you say "We have enough evidence". Who fund archaeological study when you tell them you know everything important alreasy? If you said "Our sources strongly suggest..." (which is the most that they seem to justify), you would motivate funders who are invested in the thing ideologically to pay for the necessary studies and settle the matter. The argument that there are not many revisionists, so what they say isn't true or isn't important, is not a serious argument.

The significance of Kremas II-V, which for decades were held up as the apotheosis of the Holocaust, has considerably receded when it is fairly obvious that they claimed less than 10% of the victims of the Holocaust.
Accordingly, the death camps represent less than 50% of the Holocaust, and Auschwitz is less than 20% of the Holocaust.

It is thus unsurprising when historians of Eastern Europe criticise an 'Auschwitz syndrome' when Auschwitz was not representative of 80% of the Holocaust.
"10%" is late Pressac territory, 20% is the Hilberg/Piper figure. 10% was a typo then, you're backtracking, or what?

I've already addressed the basic fallacy of this in the longer post, and also made several remarks in previous posts which you have not responded to. Aktion 1005 is better documented than you seem to realise, in that there are not only references to this action in a 'bald' sense (in personnel files and other reports), but also explicit documents from KdS Litauen about 1005's operations in Lithuania.
What I have acknowledged is that the "holocaust by bullets" is under-researched by revisionists. As you say, they have concentrated on the major camps. I know of nothing other than a few remarks by Faurisson on Father Desbois and the work projected by MGK that they will supposedly work on after their response to you and your co-researchers.
 
That's a reasonable challenge in these days of digitised books. OK, google the phrases "my own eyes" and "would not have believed" and look at the results on the first page. For me, these are:
Chaos unseen - a moonwriting novel
Henry Fielding - the history of Tom Jones (three times)
Aleeha Travis - Morakduum, the Reforging [another novel]
A citation from The Novelist's Magazine
Sharr Ray by Wm Hunt [another novel]
Tina Brooks McKinney - Snapped [another novel, apparently]
Ballantyne's Novelist's Library
Martin Booth - The Reichenbach Problem ["a work of fiction"]
So 8 out of 8 of the highest ranked results are or involve fiction. Adding "memoir" to the search still seems to yield mostly fiction, though there is "The Hitler Kiss, a memoir of the Czech Resistance", where it is used humorously to introduce a story about a monkey in a house. These phrases are regularly used to induce people to suspend disbelief.



My argument is only that if Wiernik is unreliable, his memoir is not evidence that cremations occurred. That is significant as he is a primary eye-witness, but it's only a part of a larger jigsaw, as we might agree.

Good answer. I considered that to be an unreasonable challenge but you handled it well. You sidestepped the actual challenge however by finding works of fiction that incorporate Wiernik-like phrases instead of memoirs written in Wiernik's style that were published as true but turned out to be phonies. The challenge with meeting the challenge is finding non-Holocaust memoirs that have been written in Wiernik's style. I don't know how one would go about doing that except by looking at random memoirs and reading a few pages.

I don't think Wiernik's book can be completely dismissed but his emotive writing style does detract from it's credibility.
 
He was there (at Treblinka I), but not directly involved (in the mass killings at Treblinka II) according to his own account. Despite this, he appears in episode 5 of the BBC's The Nazis - a Warning from History (1997), describing the killing operations as if he'd seen them.

He is a witness about the camp in general and the revolt there, but not about the killing operations. According to his own testimony, he heard about the gas chambers from Jankiel Wiernik (Willenberg: Surviving Treblinka. Blackwell, 1989, 125-6). Perhaps you are right about his sisters - the older generation in Britain would sometimes keep secrets about illness and such like ("what good would it do?") and perhaps it was the same in Poland.

Correction: Treblinka I was located several km away and was a pure labour camp. Willenberg wasn't at Treblinka I.

Treblinka II was divided into what Wiernik calls 'camp 1' and 'camp 2' which were adjacent. Willenberg like Wiernik, Glazar, Rajzman and other well known survivors was interned in Treblinka II.

Outer-camp witnesses like Willenberg could observe the arrival of transports and processing of the victims and their dispatch into the 'Schlauch' and thence into the gas chambers. They could hear the engines; they could observe the smoke from cremation pyres; they could observe the behaviour of the SS and Trawnikis inside the camp; and they could hear the shootings in the 'Lazarett'.

The only things they could not observe directly were the exact construction of the gas chambers, type of engine and the exact manner in which the cremations they inescapably observed from the other side of the fence, took place.

Given all this are you really sure that Willenberg described anything he didn't see fairly directly? In his memoir he is quite clear about what he did see and what he was told from inner-camp/Totenlager witnesses.
 
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