Miracle of the Shroud / Blood on the shroud

[Filippo Lippi]

Actually, it's "Actually Effective Written Debating," as described in the thread that Jabba started and then ran away from.

 

[pakeha]

Chromatography is a process whereby different fractions of a liquid spread out by different amounts on a substrate. Children habitually place M&Ms on a piece of absorbent paper, and by dripping water on them, the constituent colours spread out, giving, say, rings of blue and yellow when the original M&M was green. Many liquids behave in a similar way, without needing extra solute to separate them, as they are runny anyway, although they dry before distinct rings are formed. In this case they tend to stay roughly the same colour, with a distinct 'halo' of one of their constituents around them. I'm speculating that a drop of blood on a piece of cloth, be it dripped onto cloth directly from a wound, absorbed into a covering of cloth over a wound, or dripped by a forger from a pipette, might have been assumed by Barbet to have demonstrated a similar process. However, he did not actually experiment to find out if this assumption was true.
When one applies a dressing to an excoriation, which appears to have happened here [Caution, not for the squeamish] (http://homelineimpact.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Homeline-Enluxtra-use-6.jpg) a large amount of yellowish serum has been absorbed by the cloth, and associated with it a reddish liquid which may consist of haemolytic products, and in the middle and indistinct mass of old blood cells and clotting material. Although the scourge wounds are considerably smaller, this is the sort of stain they ought to have produced. There is no evidence for that sort of stain on the shroud. In particular, I think that if the dressing was observed under UV light, it would glow very brightly, with minor extinction towards the middle. It would not show a distinct dark image of the wound with an almost indistinguishable greeny-blue glow round the edges.

Thanks, hugh, for your clear explanation.

Yes, it's a bit like that, isn't it?

Apparently this effective debate thingy consists of selecting the person who is least unsympathetic to one's foregone conclusion as a partner and then playing pin-the-tail-on-the-red-herring with them in a room full of elephants.

That sounds terrifically athletic, O Pharaoh.
In the heat we have here, could we settle for lazing in a colonnaded portico and deciding which year of your glorious reign produced the best wine?

 

[Akhenaten]

That sounds terrifically athletic, O Pharaoh.
In the heat we have here, could we settle for lazing in a colonnaded portico and deciding which year of your glorious reign produced the best wine?

That would be far more productive, I think.

 

[Slowvehicle]

That would be far more productive, I think.

Since TjW and I appear to have disqualified ourselves with all that tacky rationalism, I'm up for some time on the porch comparing vintages.

Did your people, O Pharaoh, make wines, or were they more of a beer civilization?

BTW:

Mr. Savage, did you ever answer my question about whether the medieval linen artifact had ever been sized?

 

[Akhenaten]

Did your people, O Pharaoh, make wines, or were they more of a beer civilization?

Grapes were introduced into the Delta, probably from Canaan, in about 3000 BCE and full-scale wine production began near the beginning of the Old Kingdom in about 2650 BCE.

This tomb painting from c. 1500 BCE shows various aspects of wine making including harvesting of the grapes and exporting the finished product:

As with most things in the Two Lands, wine was considered to be somewhat sacred (owing in part to its resemblance to bluuuuurd) whereas beer was regarded pretty much as a food group, as is only right and proper.

 

[Monza]

As with most things in the Two Lands, wine was considered to be somewhat sacred (owing in part to its resemblance to bluuuuurd) whereas beer was regarded pretty much as a food group, as is only right and proper.

Whoa?! Are you saying that there is wine on the shroud? If it can be shown that wine existed in the first century and did not exist in the fourteenth century, we may be on to something.

 

[Parsman]

Wine tended to be for the rich in Ancient Egypt (which would include our Pharaoh of course). Most people would drink beer. Well I say beer, it would be so thick it would seem more like a soup, and people would often drink it with a straw to extract the liquid. Incidentally, a documentary I was watching today said that from his grave goods it would seem Tutenkamen preferred dry white wines.

 

[Akri]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that there are records of Egyptian workers being allowed to miss work in order to spend the day in the Senet houses (basically places where they went to drink and play games). Truly they were an enlightened people

 

[Dinwar]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that there are records of Egyptian workers being allowed to miss work in order to spend the day in the Senet houses (basically places where they went to drink and play games). Truly they were an enlightened people

And they paid their contractors a gallon of beer per day (in addition to other wages). Wish my boss would do that.

hughfarey, the times I've been seriously injured there was more than just blood involved--puss and other bodily fluids also leeked out (I don't know what all the fluids were, but they've been there every time). I currently have some small scrapes on my hand, thanks to worne soles on my shoes and sandstone cliffs. They weren't deep enough to bleed, but the scrapes did exude some fluid.

How much of the yellow stuff on that dressing would have been from the blood, vs. from the other seepages? And as a question for the believers (not saying you are one, just that this brought the question to mind): Why were there no bodily fluids other than blood on the shroud?

 

[pakeha]

^
I've also asked that, Dinwar. Why just blood on the TS?

Thanks for the reminder of the art of the vine, O Pharaoh.
It was amusing to see where those crafty Greeks took the idea for their amphorae!

 

[Slowvehicle]

Grapes were introduced into the Delta, probably from Canaan, in about 3000 BCE and full-scale wine production began near the beginning of the Old Kingdom in about 2650 BCE.

<respectful snip for space>

As with most things in the Two Lands, wine was considered to be somewhat sacred (owing in part to its resemblance to bluuuuurd) whereas beer was regarded pretty much as a food group, as is only right and proper.

Thank you, Mighty One (may you post forever!). As always, keepin' the E in JREF...

 

[IanS]

Whoa?! Are you saying that there is wine on the shroud? If it can be shown that wine existed in the first century and did not exist in the fourteenth century, we may be on to something.

I think you are on to something - if those red stains are actually wine, then obviously the shroud must have originally been made & sold as a tablecloth, right?

 

[Dinwar]

I think you are on to something - if those red stains are actually wine, then obviously the shroud must have originally been made & sold as a tablecloth, right?

Okay, I could sort of understand the "using cute naked Japanese women as a tablecloth" idea. But eating off an ugly, hairy, allegedly dead guy's picture? I just don't want to know who'd do that.

 

[Akri]

Okay, I could sort of understand the "using cute naked Japanese women as a tablecloth" idea. But eating off an ugly, hairy, allegedly dead guy's picture? I just don't want to know who'd do that.

Nah, see, that tablecloth was used by people who were tying to stop over-eating.

 

[John Jones]

Chromatography is a process whereby different fractions of a liquid spread out by different amounts on a substrate.[...]

Most people on this thread seem to understand chromatography enough to follow the discussion -- except for the one individual who needs the understanding the most, yet is least able to keep-up.

No matter how objective or critical your comments, Jabba will take them as possibly supportive of the authenticity of the shroud.

It's pathetic to watch.

 

[GT/CS]

Sorry about possibly bringing this thread back on topic for at least a post or two, but will someone please direct me to any research or posts regarding the re-woven thread theory?

In particular, what I hope to understand is how the RC dates correspond to where each was cut from the shroud. I watched a program where someone claimed 16th century threads were woven into the original shroud, creating the 14th century date from the testing. It's an old theory but what caught my attention on this program was how they chronologically lined up each sample in order from where it was originally on the shroud. The problem, as I see it, is that the distribution of the samples won't ever get them to the 1st century.

My guess is that it's been discussed here but I'm sure you can imagine how difficult it is to find anything in this thread.

Thanks

Thanks

 

[Sideroxylon]

Sorry about possibly bringing this thread back on topic for at least a post or two, but will someone please direct me to any research or posts regarding the re-woven thread theory?

In particular, what I hope to understand is how the RC dates correspond to where each was cut from the shroud. I watched a program where someone claimed 16th century threads were woven into the original shroud, creating the 14th century date from the testing. It's an old theory but what caught my attention on this program was how they chronologically lined up each sample in order from where it was originally on the shroud. The problem, as I see it, is that the distribution of the samples won't ever get them to the 1st century.

My guess is that it's been discussed here but I'm sure you can imagine how difficult it is to find anything in this thread.

Thanks

Thanks

Jabba should be along soon to explain the problems with this line of thinking to you. He should be your best go-to expert on this around here as he has had it explained to him numerous times in the thread.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

In a nutshell, the carbon dating was done with material from the main cloth. They were aware of the patching and were careful to date the cloth, not the patches.

What you get from TV shows is not to be taken seriously. There is no evidence of any patches being tested. None. Give it up folks. Show's over. Nothing to see.

 

[zooterkin]

I think you are on to something - if those red stains are actually wine, then obviously the shroud must have originally been made & sold as a tablecloth, right?

From the Last Supper, right?

 

[Olowkow]

.....someone claimed 16th century threads were woven into the original shroud, creating the 14th century date from the testing.

No, they're wrong. 16th century threads contaminating a 1st century cloth would give a 17th century date. You would need 13th century threads (or 6th and 7th century threads) sewn into 1st century cloth to get a 14th century date. (13+1=14)

Carbon 14 is used for 14th century dates only. For 17th century dates, use C₁₇. You can get a bottle of C₁₇H₁₃N₃O₅S₂ Phthalylsulfathiazole probably at Sam's Club.

Walmart carries 13th century thread manufactured in some mideast country.