What counts as a historical Jesus?

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Its a double logical fallacy isn't it?


Well it's simply a revelation of doubly naïve idiocy from Ehrman.

People here should make sure they watch that.

Nobody needs to bother with the first 23min 10 sec which he just wastes complaining that mythicists are not scholars. The relevant bit is just that 25 seconds from 23:10 to 23:35 ... that is his only mention of his evidence that “definitely” proves Jesus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnybQxIgfPw


So just to spell that out - Ehrman’s proof that Jesus “definitely” existed is "because he had a brother". And how does Ehrman know that? Because it says so in the bible!

You might be forgiven for thinking that not even a five year old would say anything so utterly stupid as that. But that is apparently the standard of scholarship that is being presented in this subject.
 
OK, … here is Bart Ehrman himself giving a book reading from his latest book "Did Jesus Exist" (clip below). This is the book in which he claims to give the evidence that Jesus definitely existed. It’s the book which Richard Carrier savaged in a very critical recent review. Here’s the link, and surprisingly you need to get to 23min 10sec (that’s almost the end), before Ehrman gives the first of his two “facts” which he says prove Jesus was real -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnybQxIgfPw


Right, so at 23:10 Ehrman begins with his first fact proving Jesus. For which he says this -


“ Paul actually knew the disciple Peter, and he knew James the bother of Jesus … and if Jesus did not exist then you would think his own brother would have known about it! “


That, astonishingly, is the first of Ehrmans two facts which prove Jesus.


Even more astonishing is the mention of his second proof, which follows immediately at 23:35, for which he simply says this -


“There’s one other argument for Jesus, which is too complicated to go into here.”



That’s it. That is his own public summary of the proof in his own book! :eye-poppi


OK, what to say about that performance by Ehrman? Well frankly, to put it at it’s kindest - if anyone watches that film clip, and still thinks Ehrman has any credibility whatsoever in a performance like that, then they should go immediately to a psychiatric doctor and get their head examined! :rolleyes:

That's rather nasty viewing, actually.

I think they only shew the LIKELIHOOD of the historicity of Jesus, primarily because of their stark eccentricity and consistency of outlook and presentation throughout. But that's nothing new: That's pretty much what Wells says. Keep in mind I'm only referencing the parallel sayings in Matt./Luke that I listed in a previous post, not the entirety of the sayings at all.

Stone

I see what you mean, Stone. There IS a consistency of outlook in those quotes.
My only point is that I have the impression the citations, especially that of 'Love your enemy' are taken out of context and so don't actually reflect what could be considered to be Jesus' actual thought.
It would be fascinating to see the original texts, if indeed they ever existed, rather than these hypothetical constructs.
 
Perhaps you better tell wikipedia as they have Brhaspati the Vedic deity as the founder of Cārvāka! :boggled: Seriously, this Brihaspati had writings of his time which have not survived the centuries but were recorded in later works.

-- which makes the documentation for Jesus's reflections no worse than and maybe somewhat stronger than Brhaspati's. The earliest direct quotes of Brhaspati in texts where an author's name is given are the Sarvasiddhantasamgraha (by Samkara) and the Sarvadarsanasangraha (by Madhavacarya) (the Sad-Darsana-Samuccaya is strictly a paraphrase only). The former is hundreds of years after Brhaspati died and the latter over a thousand.

" "Chastity and other such ordinances are laid down by clever weaklings; gifts of gold and land, the pleasure of invitations to dinner, are devised by indigent people with stomachs lean with hunger.
"The building of temples, houses for water-supply, tanks, wells, resting places, and the like, please only travelers, not others.
"The Agnihotra ritual, the three Vedas, the triple staff, the ash-smearing, are the ways of gaining a livelihood for those who are lacking in intellect and energy." -- so thinks Brhaspati." [Sarvasiddhantasamgraha (by Samkara)]

"The Sacrifices, the three Vedas, the ascetic's three staves,
and smearing oneself with ashes-
[T]hese are but means of livelihood
for those who have no manliness nor sense."

"While life remains, let a man live happily,
let him feed on melted ghee though he runs in debt;
When once the body becomes ashes,
how can it ever return again?" [Sarvadarsanasangraha (by Madhavacarya)]

But the earliest direct quotes from Jesus in a text where an author's name is given are in 1 Corinthians --

"7:10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): "A wife must not separate from her husband." "

"9:14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that "those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel." "

"11:23 The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." "

-- come from no later than roughly thirty years after the subject died instead.

Whatever we think of the actual substance of either the direct quotes in the Brhaspati cites or in the Jesus cites, we are applying a blatant double standard if we take direct quotes of one figure from hundreds of years before the time of writing more seriously than quotes of another from only decades before!

Stone
 
OK, … here is Bart Ehrman himself giving a book reading from his latest book "Did Jesus Exist" (clip below). This is the book in which he claims to give the evidence that Jesus definitely existed. It’s the book which Richard Carrier savaged in a very critical recent review. Here’s the link, and surprisingly you need to get to 23min 10sec (that’s almost the end), before Ehrman gives the first of his two “facts” which he says prove Jesus was real -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnybQxIgfPw


Right, so at 23:10 Ehrman begins with his first fact proving Jesus. For which he says this -





“ Paul actually knew the disciple Peter, and he knew James the bother of Jesus … and if Jesus did not exist then you would think his own brother would have known about it! “


That, astonishingly, is the first of Ehrmans two facts which prove Jesus.


Even more astonishing is the mention of his second proof, which follows immediately at 23:35, for which he simply says this -


“There’s one other argument for Jesus, which is too complicated to go into here.”

That’s it. That is his own public summary of the proof in his own book! :eye-poppi


OK, what to say about that performance by Ehrman? Well frankly, to put it at it’s kindest - if anyone watches that film clip, and still thinks Ehrman has any credibility whatsoever in a performance like that, then they should go immediately to a psychiatric doctor and get their head examined! :rolleyes:

One other thing that Ehrman says is that those gods alleged to be dying and rising gods, such as Osiris and Dionysus, were not in fact dying and rising gods. This seems to be a view that is now in fashion. I'm in the process of reading a review copy of Burton Mack's latest book, in which, in passing, he makes the same assertion. Among objections to seeing Osiris as a dying and rising god is that the risen Osiris only reigned in the underworld, the land of the dead. Ergo, he was not resurrected to life. This ignores the fact that Osiris wasn't just killed by his brother Set, but was also chopped into 14 pieces. Isis, wife of Osiris, collected them, reassembled the body of Osiris and physically resurrected him. He lived, then, albeit in the underworld.

We would naturally expect the Christians in adapting the myth of the dying and rising god, would have changed and possibly improved the story. It's also simplistic to assume that the Christ myth was entirely based on pagan dying and rising gods. The narrative material of the gospels is derived from four separate sources. These are: pagan myth, Greek literature, Jewish apocalyptic belief and the politics of the day as seen in apocalyptic terms, and the Jewish scriptures.

The "anti-mythicist" view seems to see the Jesus as a dying and rising god as the invention of of late nineteenth and early twentieth century writers, such as Frazier. However, such a view ignores what the second century Christian writer, Justin Martyr, wrote in his First Apology, addressed to Emperor Antoninus Pius. In chapter 21, Justin give all sorts of analogies between Jesus and pagan deities / heroes of classical myth. Also, in chapter 54 Justin attributes that the similarities between Christian and pagan belief to the work of devils corrupting a prophecy of the Christ made by Moses (emphasis added):

The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine, and they number wine [or, the ass] among his mysteries; and they taught that, having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven. And because in the prophecy of Moses it had not been expressly intimated whether He who was to come was the Son of God, and whether He would, riding on the foal, remain on earth or ascend into heaven, and because the name of foal could mean either the foal of an ass or the foal of a horse, they, not knowing whether He who was foretold would bring the foal of an ass or of a horse as the sign of His coming, nor whether He was the Son of God, as we said above, or of man, gave out that Bellerophon, a man born of man, himself ascended to heaven on his horse Pegasus. And when they heard it said by the other prophet Isaiah, that He should be born of a virgin, and by His own means ascend into heaven, they pretended that Perseus was spoken of. And when they knew what was said, as has been cited above, in the prophecies written aforetime, Strong as a giant to run his course, they said that Hercules was strong, and had journeyed over the whole earth. And when, again, they learned that it had been foretold that He should heal every sickness, and raise the dead, they produced Æsculapius.

I suspect that we will have to weather the idea of dying and rising gods being out of fashion for a number of years, after which the idea might well be in vogue again. I'd be interested to hear what either Ehrman or Mack have to say about the words of Justin Martyr.
 
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Well it's simply a revelation of doubly naïve idiocy from Ehrman.

People here should make sure they watch that.

Nobody needs to bother with the first 23min 10 sec which he just wastes complaining that mythicists are not scholars. The relevant bit is just that 25 seconds from 23:10 to 23:35 ... that is his only mention of his evidence that “definitely” proves Jesus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnybQxIgfPw


So just to spell that out - Ehrman’s proof that Jesus “definitely” existed is "because he had a brother". And how does Ehrman know that? Because it says so in the bible!

You might be forgiven for thinking that not even a five year old would say anything so utterly stupid as that. But that is apparently the standard of scholarship that is being presented in this subject.

:hb:

Ehrman has got to be kidding.

We aren't even sure if the brother reference is biological or spiritual...and that that assumes who ever edited Paul's letters into the form we have didn't throw that line in there.

This is on par with a scene in an old Superfriends cartoon where Bizarro Cyborg says "I learn about technology. Watch me interface with computer." and promptly smashes his head into a computer screen. :boggled:
 
One other thing that Ehrman says is that those gods alleged to be dying and rising gods, such as Osiris and Dionysus, were not in fact dying and rising gods. This seems to be a view that is now in fashion. I'm in the process of reading a review copy of Burton Mack's latest book, in which, in passing, he makes the same assertion. Among objections to seeing Osiris as a dying and rising god is that the risen Osiris only reigned in the underworld, the land of the dead. Ergo, he was not resurrected to life. This ignores the fact that Osiris wasn't just killed by his brother Set, but was also chopped into 14 pieces. Isis, wife of Osiris, collected them, reassembled the body of Osiris and physically resurrected him. He lived, then, albeit in the underworld.

We would naturally expect the Christians in adapting the myth of the dying and rising god, would have changed and possibly improved the story. It's also simplistic to assume that the Christ myth was entirely based on pagan dying and rising gods. The narrative material of the gospels is derived from four separate sources. These are: pagan myth, Greek literature, Jewish apocalyptic belief and the politics of the day as seen in apocalyptic terms, and the Jewish scriptures.

The "anti-mythicist" view seems to see the Jesus as a dying and rising god as the invention of of late nineteenth and early twentieth century writers, such as Frazier. However, such a view ignores what the second century Christian writer, Justin Martyr, wrote in his First Apology, addressed to Emperor Antoninus Pius. In chapter 21, Justin give all sorts of analogies between Jesus and pagan deities / heroes of classical myth. Also, in chapter 54 Justin attributes that the similarities between Christian and pagan belief to the work of devils corrupting a prophecy of the Christ made by Moses (emphasis added):

The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine, and they number wine [or, the ass] among his mysteries; and they taught that, having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven. And because in the prophecy of Moses it had not been expressly intimated whether He who was to come was the Son of God, and whether He would, riding on the foal, remain on earth or ascend into heaven, and because the name of foal could mean either the foal of an ass or the foal of a horse, they, not knowing whether He who was foretold would bring the foal of an ass or of a horse as the sign of His coming, nor whether He was the Son of God, as we said above, or of man, gave out that Bellerophon, a man born of man, himself ascended to heaven on his horse Pegasus. And when they heard it said by the other prophet Isaiah, that He should be born of a virgin, and by His own means ascend into heaven, they pretended that Perseus was spoken of. And when they knew what was said, as has been cited above, in the prophecies written aforetime, Strong as a giant to run his course, they said that Hercules was strong, and had journeyed over the whole earth. And when, again, they learned that it had been foretold that He should heal every sickness, and raise the dead, they produced Æsculapius.

I suspect that we will have to weather the idea of dying and rising gods being out of fashion for a number of years, after which the idea might well be in vogue again. I'd be interested to hear what either Ehrman or Mack have to say about the words of Justin Martyr.


Not if we keep pulling out Justin Martyr as a counter and go "See even one of your own in the 2nd century saw it."

Also while Osiris ruled in the land of the dead his powers extended into the world of the living.

It should be noted that as with the Greeks the Egyptian gods changed over time. Osiris eventually became merged with Ptah-Seker (reincarnation) becoming Ptah-Seker-Osiris. His green skin signified the death and rebirth of the crops.

Also as with the Greeks there are many versions of the same myth. In on version of of the Osiris Isis brings back Osiris, has sex with him, he dies, Set tears him apart, Isis then puts him back together, and then Osiris becomes king of the underworld.

Then you have the fact that Egyptians saw the soul as multipart thing and part of Orisis' "soul" (the Ba) was still around in the living world.

IMHO the apologists are having the same problem with the Internet that Roman Catholicism had with the printing press. The flaws in their evidence keeps being pushed out there and people like Carrier are having their research published in academic journals is making it harder and hard for them to do the "Because we say so" nonsense we have been seeing.
 
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There is also the issue of distance - for many of us there is hardly any difference between say Methodists and Roman Catholics - yet to a member of either church the differences are obvious and huge. So we get people arguing such fine distinctions to make their god (in this case Jesus) unique when it is nothing of the sort.
 
Not if we keep pulling out Justin Martyr as a counter and go "See even one of your own in the 2nd century saw it."
Also while Osiris ruled in the land of the dead his powers extended into the world of the living.

It should be noted that as with the Greeks the Egyptian gods changed over time. Osiris eventually became merged with Ptah-Seker (reincarnation) becoming Ptah-Seker-Osiris. His green skin signified the death and rebirth of the crops.

Also as with the Greeks there are many versions of the same myth. In on version of of the Osiris Isis brings back Osiris, has sex with him, he dies, Set tears him apart, Isis then puts him back together, and then Osiris becomes king of the underworld.

Then you have the fact that Egyptians saw the soul as multipart thing and part of Orisis' "soul" (the Ba) was still around in the living world.

IMHO the apologists are having the same problem with the Internet that Roman Catholicism had with the printing press. The flaws in their evidence keeps being pushed out there and people like Carrier are having their research published in academic journals is making it harder and hard for them to do the "Because we say so" nonsense we have been seeing.

Also, Richard Carrier makes an important point in this video. Specifically, he points out that one of the great trends in Hellenistic / Roman times was the individualization of what had originally been agricultural dying and rising gods. That is, what had formally been merely gods who represented, say, the annual growth, harvesting, death and rebirth of the grain were converted into personal savior deities.

This would have been particularly true among urban populations, and Christianity spread chiefly through urban centers. In fact, the first great missionary field, once Christianity was the state religion of the Roman Empire, wasn't to peoples beyond the empire or even to those foreign peoples who had invaded the empire. Rather, it was the countryside of the empire itself (source: The Barbarian Conversion by Richard Fletcher, Henry Holt & Co. 1997).

It would be simplistic to assert that the cults of either Osiris or Dionysus were the same in Hellenistic and Roman times as they were when originally conceived. This is particularly true of Osiris, since Egypt was ancient, a civilization that had existed for over 2,000 years, when Greece was young. Naturally, the cult of Osiris as practiced in the Roman Empire was far different from the originally agricultural fertility god cult ca. 5,000 years BP.
 
...The available information about the hypothetical HJ {Historical Jesus} is too ambiguous and unreliable to justify strong conclusions about the nature of an HJ including whether an HJ existed or not....

In addition to skeptic Bart Ehrman who said "Jesus certainly existed", these other academics would have disagreed with you:

Sir Edward Clark — a prominent lawyer in Great Britain “As a lawyer, I have made a prolonged study of the evidences for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. To me, the evidence is conclusive; and over and over again in the high court, I have secured the verdict on evidence not nearly so compelling. The Gospel evidence for the resurrection I accept unreservedly as the testimony of truthful men to facts that they were able to substantiate.”

Canon Westcott — for years a brilliant scholar at Cambridge University “Indeed, taking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. Nothing but the antecedent assumption that it must be false could have suggested the idea of deficiency in the proof of it.”

Thomas Arnold — Professor of History at Oxford University; author of a 3-volume history on ancient Rome “I have been used for many years to study the history of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them; and I know of no fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than that Christ died and rose again from the dead.”

http://www.awordfromtheword.org/what-if
 
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In addition to skeptic Bart Ehrman who said "Jesus certainly existed", these other academics would have disagreed with you:

Sir Edward Clark — a prominent lawyer in Great Britain “As a lawyer, I have made a prolonged study of the evidences for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. To me, the evidence is conclusive; and over and over again in the high court, I have secured the verdict on evidence not nearly so compelling. The Gospel evidence for the resurrection I accept unreservedly as the testimony of truthful men to facts that they were able to substantiate.”

Canon Westcott — for years a brilliant scholar at Cambridge University “Indeed, taking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. Nothing but the antecedent assumption that it must be false could have suggested the idea of deficiency in the proof of it.”

Thomas Arnold — Professor of History at Oxford University; author of a 3-volume history on ancient Rome “I have been used for many years to study the history of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them; and I know of no fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than that Christ died and rose again from the dead.”

http://www.awordfromtheword.org/what-if

We have seen several state in this thread and quote others saying that plenty of evidence exists but what is this evidence?
 
In addition to skeptic Bart Ehrman who said "Jesus certainly existed", these other academics would have disagreed with you:

Sir Edward Clark — a prominent lawyer in Great Britain “As a lawyer, I have made a prolonged study of the evidences for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. To me, the evidence is conclusive; and over and over again in the high court, I have secured the verdict on evidence not nearly so compelling. The Gospel evidence for the resurrection I accept unreservedly as the testimony of truthful men to facts that they were able to substantiate.”

Canon Westcott — for years a brilliant scholar at Cambridge University “Indeed, taking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. Nothing but the antecedent assumption that it must be false could have suggested the idea of deficiency in the proof of it.”

Thomas Arnold — Professor of History at Oxford University; author of a 3-volume history on ancient Rome “I have been used for many years to study the history of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them; and I know of no fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than that Christ died and rose again from the dead.”

http://www.awordfromtheword.org/what-if



Utterly barking (see highlights). And just reinforces the pathetic and inadequate nature of this subject as unintentionally demonstrated above by Ehrman himself.

Those three examples (highlights) come from people apparently so barking mad that they believe someone rose from his grave in full view of everyone, spoke to his audience, before floating off through the clouds to meet his dad in the sky.

Still, it does at least highlight again the utter nonsense which has been promoted here as “expert scholarly” study.
 
In addition to skeptic Bart Ehrman who said "Jesus certainly existed" (evidence please?), these other academics would have disagreed with you:

Sir Edward Clark — a prominent lawyer in Great Britain “As a lawyer, I have made a prolonged study of the evidences (what evidences?) for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. To me, the evidence (what evidence?) is conclusive; and over and over again in the high court, I have secured the verdict on evidence not nearly so compelling. The Gospel evidence (what evidence?) for the resurrection I accept unreservedly as the testimony of truthful men to facts that they were able to substantiate.”

Canon Westcott — for years a brilliant scholar at Cambridge University “Indeed, taking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported (who by, where's the evidence?) than the resurrection of Christ. Nothing but the antecedent assumption that it must be false could have suggested the idea of deficiency in the proof of it.”

Thomas Arnold — Professor of History at Oxford University; author of a 3-volume history on ancient Rome “I have been used for many years to study the history of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence (what evidence?) of those who have written about them; and I know of no fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence (what evidences?) of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than that Christ died and rose again from the dead.”

http://www.awordfromtheword.org/what-if


Without exception, they talk about the evidence being "of every sort", "conclusive", "more variously supported", etc.....

BUT THEY DON'T STATE WHAT THAT EVIDENCE ACTUALLY IS!!!!!

The Emperor STILL has no clothes on!!!

IanS: Barking Mad is certainly the description I would use


ETA - By the way DOC, you left out some important facts...

Sir Edward Clark (15 February 1841 – 26 April 1931)

Canon Brooke Westcott (12 January 1825 – 27 July 1901)

Dr Thomas Arnold (13 June 1795 – 12 June 1842)

You might want to find some more contemporary (barking mad) scholars to support your fragile case. The world has moved on in the last 100-200 years
 
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In addition to skeptic Bart Ehrman who said "Jesus certainly existed", these other academics would have disagreed with you:

Oh, well... if he SAID he certainly existed, then...

Sir Edward Clark — a prominent lawyer

I wonder what his plumber thinks about this issue ! :rolleyes:

Canon Westcott — for years a brilliant scholar at Cambridge University “Indeed, taking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ.

Then he's an idiot. Saying that an event with almost no evidence is better than any other known event is ludicrous.

Thomas Arnold — Professor of History at Oxford University; author of a 3-volume history on ancient Rome “I have been used for many years to study the history of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them; and I know of no fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than that Christ died and rose again from the dead.”

He's even more ******* crazy, since there IS NO evidence of the resurrection AT ALL.
 
In addition to skeptic Bart Ehrman who said "Jesus certainly existed", these other academics would have disagreed with you:

Sir Edward Clark — a prominent lawyer in Great Britain “As a lawyer, I have made a prolonged study of the evidences for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. To me, the evidence is conclusive; and over and over again in the high court, I have secured the verdict on evidence not nearly so compelling. The Gospel evidence for the resurrection I accept unreservedly as the testimony of truthful men to facts that they were able to substantiate.”

Sir Edward Clark while actually a barrister (rather than a solicitor) he practiced in the late Victorian age. It should also be mentioned that until 2008 Great Britain had Blasphemy laws on the books and was prosecuting people under then as late as 1992. As John William Gott in 1921 saying anything bad about Jesus in public was a sure way to wind up in jail and as a barrister Sir Edward Clarkwould have known that.


Canon Westcott — for years a brilliant scholar at Cambridge University “Indeed, taking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. Nothing but the antecedent assumption that it must be false could have suggested the idea of deficiency in the proof of it.”

Real name Brooke Foss Westcott (1825 – 1901) Another relic of Great Britain's Victorian Age only this one became a Bishop.

Even by the standards of the Victorian Age his claim is idiotic nonsense as demonstrated by Drews and Remsburg. By the standard of 20th century history it is even more idiotic per the Holocaust comparison that keeps coming up like a bad smell:

Holocaust has 3,000 tons of truly contemporary (ie between 1938-1945) records presented at the 1945-1946 Nuremberg Trial. The 1958 finding aids (eventually the index to the Holocaust evidence) was 62 volumes--just 4 books shy of the number of books (66) traditionally in the entire Bible! Then between 1958 and 2000 they added another 30 volumes bringing to the total to 92 volumes.

For Westcott's claim of "no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ" to hold true:

1) there would have to be 3,000 tons of written records dating from 6 BCE to 36 CE showing Jesus existed

2) The most powerful government of the world (ie Rome) collected said evidence no later then 36 CE

3) The evidence was presented no later then 37 CE.

AND

4) There was a 62 volume index of this evidence dating no later than 44 CE and a 92 volume index of this evidence dating from no later then 92 CE.

That is the problem with claims of Victorian Age claims to Jesus existing...time has passed them by and their claim look even dumber now then they did then.


Thomas Arnold — Professor of History at Oxford University; author of a 3-volume history on ancient Rome “I have been used for many years to study the history of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them; and I know of no fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than that Christ died and rose again from the dead.”

http://www.awordfromtheword.org/what-if

At 1795 - 1842 this guy is even further back then the previous two. More over he was Regius Professor of Modern History at Oxford.

A Regius Professor for those who don't know is a "chair founded by or dependent on the sovereign." The Monarch of England is the head of the Anglican Church (ie equivalent to the Pope) so keeping them happy is part of what is needed to keep the position.

So you have a professor dependent on keeping the head of the Church of his country happy to keep his chair. Never mind his specialty was in MODERN history...not ancient.

The only idea these scholars would help support is the misguided concept that the average Victorian Age "scholar" was a clueless knuckle dragging neanderthal.
 
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In addition to skeptic Bart Ehrman who said "Jesus certainly existed", these other academics would have disagreed with you:...

That attempt to shore up your argument backfired spectacularly, DOC.
Did you really not take the trouble to find out who those people were and when they lived?
 
That attempt to shore up your argument backfired spectacularly, DOC.
Did you really not take the trouble to find out who those people were and when they lived?

Not to mention, DOC, that the three Victorians you credit would NOT have agreed with Ehrman that the Jesus that "certainly existed" was a fully-human, non-divine, non-magical, non-resurrected, non messiah...you really,really, ought to read the rest of Ehrman's book, sometime.
 
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Now that Slowvehicle has brought it up, DOC, do you believe Ehrman's conclusion concerning the existence in the 1st century of a non-miraclulous, non-resurrecting person called Jesus?
 
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<polite snip>

The only idea these scholars would help support is the misguided concept that the average Victorian Age "scholar" was a clueless knuckle dragging neanderthal.

We will have to coin a new class of logical fallacy just for DOC. May I suggest....

"Argumentum obsole auctoritati"

Appeal to an obsolete authority!!
 
We will have to coin a new class of logical fallacy just for DOC. May I suggest....

"Argumentum obsole auctoritati"

Appeal to an obsolete authority!!

Ironically that is the claim apologists level at Christ Mythers.

Most of the time they go "This is a refuted claim from over 100 years ago" without showing how it was refuted, who refuted it, and when it was refuted.

This is likely because then they can produced the reference one finds enough holes in it big enough to fly the Hindenburg through.

The Isis is not a virgin counterargument is a case in point.

The apologists point to the Scroll of the Dead as proof...ignoring the fact that in certain regions the Isis later cultures worshiped had picked up the attributes of other goddesses such as in the case of the some Roman regions lo, Minerva, Diana, and Hecate... all of whom were virgins.

So in some areas Isis was worshiped as a virgin goddess in the Roman empire as claimed by that supposedly "refuted claim from over 100 years ago".

I have to wonder given you don't see references to these claims if the apologists and scholars are just repeating what some earlier "scholar" said without first checking if he had any proof.
 
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