Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[ABC10]

If she testified to that Zimmerman was clinically obese, it wasn't in that video.

The PA noted obese on her report. No, I don't have a link but it is common knowledge.

 

[ABC10]

You assume that Martin committed a crime, but there is no real proof of that. We only have George's word that Martin attacked first, and George's word that Martin was trying to kill him. The fact that George was clearly exaggerating his injuries and what happened to him during the fight doesn't seem to matter. George's injuries were mild and not life threatening. But he also knows that the dead man will never get to tell his side of the story.

We do know that at the time George called the police, Martin had not committed a crime. At the point were George gets out of his truck to make sure this ******* doesn't get away like all the others, Martin had not committed a crime. We don't know who started the fight, but we do know that George has been pumping himself up to make sure this one doesn't get away. Is the idea that George would try to grab this kid he has already stereotyped as a criminal really that hard to accept?

On what bases did you presume that Trayvon would suddenly decide to beat a man to death?

I think there is enough information out there presented in Court by O'Mara and West that everyone should have a good idea of what happened.
Why Martin would suddenly decide to beat Zimmerman was a question finally answered for me by Rachael. She said she suggested "the man was a rapist". I think Martin decided to do a little gay bashing on George after her comment.

 

[WildCat]

Going up to the window of a house and peering inside would be considered suspicious behavior. As would peering inside car windows. Walking up to houses that appear to be unoccupied and checking the doors would be suspicious behavior.

Yes. So is looking in windows as you walk by, you don't actually have to run up to the window to peer inside.

So what made George decide this was one of those ******** who alway get away and not just some kid talking on the phone and taking his time going home? Was that decision based on behavior or age, clothing and skin color?

It was based on Martin acting suspiciously. Have you heard the phone call?

If I recall correctly, during his call to the police just before this one George also followed the suspect but didn't get out of his vehicle. Does anyone know if that ******* got away? Perhaps George decided that he needed to be more proactive.

What do you think George decided to do? Called the police so they could get there to arrest him for his planned assault and false imprisonment? Has anything lead you to believe that Zimmerman thought he could detain people he found suspicious?

 

[WildCat]

Whoa. Are you suggesting that "looking about", as one might do walking down the street, is the same thing as "looking in windows", which I take as walking up to a window and, you know, looking in?

Again, what is this bizarre belief that you need to walk right up to a window in order to look in it?

 

[Kestrel]

So where were the symptoms of the bleeding inside Zimmerman's head? And how can you explain him not showing any signs of this horrendous injury when he did the walkthrough the next day?

 

[Kestrel]

The PA noted obese on her report. No, I don't have a link but it is common knowledge.

Common knowledge doesn't cut it on a skeptics forum. Especially common knowledge that contradicts George Zimmerman's appearance at the time of the shooting.

 

[Dan O.]

OK, so how fast do you estimate he was running? I asked this before, no one seems to have an answer. Bonus points if you can approximate how fast the wind has to be to make such wind noise, and how you rule out things like the area at the "T" was sheltered from the wind.

I postes estimates of the distances and times up thread. Posters are encouraged to measure a similar distance in their own neighborhood and time themselves running, trotting and walking.

If your phone has a memo record function, you could try doing this in the wind and see what conditions reproduce the wind noise heard on George's phone.

BTW, has anyone found out what phone George had? I believe there was a mention of t-mobile service and there is that photo of George with the phone to his ear. What happened to that phone? Who was he talking to? Did he hand his phone to flashlight boy befor the real cops showed up? Is that why he had to say "just tell her I shot somebody".


The area at the tee was not sheltered from the wind any more that the approaches to that area. The nearest shelter from the wind is inside George's truck.

 

[Kestrel]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200263384415350

It seems Martin was into martial arts combat/fighting. He was also a druggie.

It was pointed out earlier that "LEAN" isn't made with Skittles or Iced Tea. So Trayvon had none of the ingredients for making this drug cocktail.

 

[KatieG]

"The fact that there were only two small cuts to the back of the head does not mean his head did not strike the concrete, Dr. Di Maio said.

Head injuries do not necessarily cause visible bleeding, he said. The bleeding often occurs inside the skull, which is why CT scans are used on people with head injuries.

“Everyone has fallen and hit their head, and you don’t get lacerations,” Dr. Di Maio said. “You can get severe head trauma actually without any marks on the head. Or you can get marks, lacerations and contusions and have head trauma.”" http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/10/u...s-he-was-shot-expert-says.html?pagewanted=all

And even the prosecution's Dr. Rao admitted the injuries could have come from multiple blows: "But under cross- examination by Mark O'Mara, one of Mr. Zimmerman's lawyers, Dr. Rao conceded that Mr. Zimmerman's injuries could have come from multiple blows." http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/u...man-trial-ask-jury-to-disregard-comments.html

The point is it is traumatic to have you head slammed on the sidewalk and you can very much be in fear for your life and panicked that the next blow could be lie ending because of brain injury. You can be dazed too.

Martin's text messages reveal a violent "gangster" as he described himself. he recordings and the witness are evidence that Martin would not stop assaulting him even after Zimmerman was screaming and even after the neighbor yelled fro him to stop.
Apparently Zimmerman "aint breed nuff 4" Martin in the mind of the self described "gangster"
How longer should Zimmerman have waited and allowed Martin to continue beating him?
Also, I just watched videos in never saw before from the defense website with Martin laughing watching a fight, seems he really enjoys fights.

MARTIN: Tired nd sore
wat happen tah yuhh ??
MARTIN: Fight
Y !?
MARTIN: Cause man dal ***** snitched on me
Bac y yun always fightingg man, yu got suspended ?
MARTIN: Naw we thumped afta skool in a duckd off spot
Ohh, Well Damee
MARTIN: I lost da 1st round but I won da 2nd nd 3rd
Ohh So It Wass 3 Rounds ? Damee well at least yu aonn lol but yuu needa stop fightingg bae Forreal'
MARTIN: Naw im not done wit fool..... he gone hav 2 see me a again
Nooo bac Stop, you aint gonn bee satisfied till yuh get suspended again huh ?
MARTIN: Naw but he aint breed nuff 4 me, only his nose..... but afta dat im done

The guy Martin was fighting didn't bleed enough for him! Looks like a few people here share Martin's concern of wanting to see more injury.

Martin's indulgence in violence clearly had a friend worried, the text messages also "contain a haunting warning from a friend: "Boy don’t get one planted in ya chest," the friend writes. The text came three months before Trayvon was shot, the Miami Herald reports. The same friend earlier said Trayvon was "turning into a lil hoodlum." " http://www.newser.com/story/168441/trayvons-texts-reveal-fistfights-eerie-warning.html

In case you haven't heard, the trial is over and GZ was found not guilty. TM is not and was not, on trial.

 

[Kestrel]

He doesn't say windows specifically but he does mention that he is looking at houses.

Was Trayvon required to look up at the sky all the time or down at the ground?
In a condo complex full of tightly packed houses, it's really hard to avoid the sin of looking at them otherwise.

And as has been mentioned before, the Neighborhood Watch documents don't list that as suspicious behavior. They list more explicit things like checking the doors of homes that appear to be unoccupied.

 

[Giz]

Whoa. Are you suggesting that "looking about", as one might do walking down the street, is the same thing as "looking in windows", which I take as walking up to a window and, you know, looking in?

You forgot the option: looking about because he wanted to replace the pile of stolen jewelery that had been confiscated.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

Out of millions of fistfights a year, a few end up being deadly. Therefore it's justified to end a fistfight using deadly force, assuring that a far more of them end in death?

Here's an idea. First of all don't go out and pick a fight with someone that you don't know. If you ignore that advice (or even if the other guy starts it) then perhaps stopping when they are screaming out for help might be a good idea. Barring that, if the guy has a gun you can expect to be shot (or stabbed if he has a knife, or hit over the head with a rock if there's one next to him) because he has no idea if you will stop before he has to eat his meals through a straw for the rest of his life, or worse.

Act civilized and you won't have to worry about being at the receiving end of a gun, knife or rock in a "Fistfight".

 

[Dan O.]

Trayvon only needs to travel 6 meters south of the tee to be out of sight from the road and therefore out of the light from George's headlights. About 45 meters down at the break between the housing units there is a tree that would provide a shadow from the only porch light that was on in the area. From this spot on the sidewalk Trayvon would be nearly invisible in the dark and could watch in 4 directions with 4 directions to run if needed.

 

[Dan O.]

What happened to George Zimmerman's cell phone?

George had a cell phone with him the night he Shot Trayvon Martin. He was on that phone talking to the NEN dispatcher while running through the neighborhood minutes before the fatal shooting. George has even given the dispatcher the number so the officers can call him when they get in the area:

G: Actually, could you have them, could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at.
D: O-K, yea, that's no problem.
G: you need my number or you got it?
D: Yea I, I got it, 4-0-7, 4-3-5, 4-2-0-0
G: yea, you got it.
D: O-K, no problem, I'll let them know to call you when they're in the area.
G: Thanks
D: You're welcome.
​

In George's statement he says he reaches for his cell phone when he encounters Trayvon (or at least that was one of his statements, elsewhere he states he was jumped without warning).

After the shooting, George is seen by multiple witnesses walking back to the tee at the end of the sidewalk. Joe Manalo testified that he grabbed a flashlight and went out. He met George at a location about 6 feet from the tee.

Manalo testified that he took the photos with his cell phone that showed blood on Zimmerman's lip and scalp. In that photo, it appears that George has a cell phone up to his ear.


Manalo said Zimmerman asked him to call his wife, Shellie, and tell her that he just shot someone as cops arrived on the scene.

"He had a cell phone in his hand and he tossed it on the ground asking if I could call his wife," Manalo testified. "He gave me her number. I had a connection right away and said, 'Your husband has been involved in a shooting. He's detained by Sanford police.'"​

This is the last reference I have found to George's phone. Joe claims it was tossed to the ground but all that was found on the ground at that location were George's truck key and the attached flashlight.

 

[Dissolution]

It was pointed out earlier that "LEAN" isn't made with Skittles or Iced Tea. So Trayvon had none of the ingredients for making this drug cocktail.

It's also been pointed out repeatedly that TM didn't buy iced tea. He bought a can of AriZona Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail.
Pretty sure that you can make lean with whatever soda you want, though.

There's no evidence to suggest that TM was making lean, so I don't think it's particularly relevant.

 

[WildCat]

I postes estimates of the distances and times up thread. Posters are encouraged to measure a similar distance in their own neighborhood and time themselves running, trotting and walking.

If your phone has a memo record function, you could try doing this in the wind and see what conditions reproduce the wind noise heard on George's phone.

BTW, has anyone found out what phone George had? I believe there was a mention of t-mobile service and there is that photo of George with the phone to his ear. What happened to that phone? Who was he talking to? Did he hand his phone to flashlight boy befor the real cops showed up? Is that why he had to say "just tell her I shot somebody".


The area at the tee was not sheltered from the wind any more that the approaches to that area. The nearest shelter from the wind is inside George's truck.

Odd you cropped out the building just to the north, which would block any wind from the north.

 

[Kestrel]

In case you haven't heard, the trial is over and GZ was found not guilty. TM is not and was not, on trial.

Was the evidence from GZ's phone ever collected by the police?

 

[Kestrel]

Here's an idea. First of all don't go out and pick a fight with someone that you don't know. If you ignore that advice (or even if the other guy starts it) then perhaps stopping when they are screaming out for help might be a good idea. Barring that, if the guy has a gun you can expect to be shot (or stabbed if he has a knife, or hit over the head with a rock if there's one next to him) because he has no idea if you will stop before he has to eat his meals through a straw for the rest of his life, or worse.

Act civilized and you won't have to worry about being at the receiving end of a gun, knife or rock in a "Fistfight".

George got out of his truck to chase after Trayvon. He admitted to this during his phone call to the police. But when he tells the story the next day, he claims it was just to get an address. He claims to have gone to the other street then straight back. But if he did that, he would have been back at the T a couple minutes earlier.

Look at the evidence and it's clear that George kept looking for the "suspect". Most likely going south on the street, then coming back on the path at the back of the condos. Knowing that George didn't want this ******* to get away like all the others, it's likely the George tried to detain Trayvon.

Trayvon's mistake could have been letting George go. He got the upper hand in a fight a creepy guy started by trying to grab him. When Trayvon starts to disengage from the fight, an angry and pissed off George pulls out his concealed handgun and shoots.

 

[boooeee]

Was Trayvon required to look up at the sky all the time or down at the ground?
In a condo complex full of tightly packed houses, it's really hard to avoid the sin of looking at them otherwise.

And as has been mentioned before, the Neighborhood Watch documents don't list that as suspicious behavior. They list more explicit things like checking the doors of homes that appear to be unoccupied.

"Looking at houses" is ambiguous and could be used to describe a range of behaviors, from completely normal to highly suspicious. We simply don't know exactly what Trayvon was doing. All we have to go on is that, based on what GZ observed, it was suspicious enough to warrant calling the police.

There seems to be a need to assign "guilt" to this initial situation: Either Trayvon actually was up to no good, or GZ is a racist profiler who doesn't like black teenagers in his neighborhood and automatically considers them suspicious. It's possible (and likely, imo) that Trayvon had no ill intentions that night, but had been acting in a way that could be mis-interpreted as suspicious by GZ.

Since Trayvon had only stayed at the complex a few times, maybe he got confused as to where the house was, and so was looking at houses to get his bearings.

 

[Cylinder]

Juror B-29, the Afro-Hispanic female from Chicago, spoke to ABC News today. Her interview will be partially aired on Nightline tonight (Thursday, July 25) and air in full on GMA tomorrow (Friday).