Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[Ziggurat]

He had liver damage, at that age?

Yes, he did. From the coroner's report, page 4:

"Focal patchy yellow discoloration [on the liver], due to mild fatty metamorphosis, is present."

If not from a disease/chronic ailment then it sounds like he had been using substances for some time.

From his facebook posts, probably at least since the summer of 2011.

Does DXM leave any trace specific of its own compound or just these residual, but serious, side effects?

I don't know how long it stays in the body, but if the toxicology screen doesn't search specifically for it, then they would probably never see it. It's not possible to screen for any possible drugs, you have to select which drugs you test for.

 

[Cylinder]

George Zimmerman said he was on his way to the store when he passed Trayvon Martin. If Zimmerman had only kept on going none of this would've happened. Zimmerman would've gone to the store and Martin would've returned to his father's home.

So what exactly was it about the presence of Trayvon Martin the denied George Zimmerman the ability to walk down that common area - even to check on suspicious behavior? Why the sudden exclusion zone around that particular group of buildings?

But fors need proximity. But for Martin's violent and sustained attack on Zimmerman, both would have went along their usual paths sans incident.

 

[Ziggurat]

Was Martin impaired by any of these drugs on the night he was killed? According to this, his levels were below the level of "performance impairment".

His levels of THC were below impairment. But 1) I'm not talking about THC, in case you forgot, so that's quite irrelevant, and 2) the effects of DXM abuse can last beyond immediate intoxication, producing effects (such as paranoia and aggression) even when not "on" the drug.

 

[Ziggurat]

Funny how the part of this reputed drug cocktail that Trayvon was missing was the drug.

Not really. That could easily have been in the medicine cabinet of the apartment he was staying at, it's not illicit or even particularly rare.

And when we look at his autopsy we find:
Liver: No diagnostic abnormality.

Actually, that's not what we find at all. We find that he had "Focal patchy yellow discoloration, due to mild fatty metamorphosis" in his liver. That's liver damage. It's on page 4, under HEPATOBILIARY SYSTEM. If you only looked at page 6, then you missed a rather critical bit of information.

 

[Ziggurat]

The bottom line remains, and this is the part I don't think Whittle has ever addressed:

George Zimmerman said he was on his way to the store when he passed Trayvon Martin. If Zimmerman had only kept on going none of this would've happened.

That may be true, but it's not the bottom line, not at all. Look, if you're not directly involved in the case, why does any of this matter at all? It only matters because the media MADE it matter. There's no objective reason Martin's murder should be more important than the hundreds of other black youths who get murdered every year, except that the media chose to turn it into an event. And they did so in large part through lies (do you not remember the initial editing of Zimmerman's 911 call that made it sound like he stated Martin's ethnicity spontaneously rather than in response to a direct question?). And that media malfeasance (and don't kid yourself that it was anything else) really does matter.

Whittle is a pundit. He's got a perspective, he's open about that perspective, and there's no problem with him pushing that perspective. But "journalists" who lie, who lay claim to objectivity while hiding critical information, who don't actually do their jobs - well, that matters a hell of a lot more than just one single tragic death, because the effects of such corruption of information on the public can do much worse than that.

 

[Dissolution]

Sorry NewYorkGuy, but we don't only have Zimmerman's account to go by.
We have the physical evidence and a variety of, admittedly patchy, witnesses to help.

Blaming Zimmerman for not driving on is no better than blaming Martin for not going home when he ran off.
That would've prevented anything from happening too, wouldn't it?

 

[Cylinder]

It's nice to see the Sunday talk shows repeating the same long-debunk lie foisted upon them by the Martin family attorneys that Trayvon Martin was not identified for three days.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

This is a typical attack on the media by a hard-core right-winger.

How objective is Bill Whittle? The photos he claims were used to manipulate the American public were file photos.

Actually, that photo of TM was provided by Ryan Julison, the Martin family publicist.
http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/pr...s-editorials-in-regards-to-the-zimmerman-case

Here is the photo of Trayvon Martin that police documents recognize as the photo Trayvon's father gave to law enforcement as an aid to identify his son when he believed Trayvon was missing.

He refers to a search of Trayvon Martin's school locker as finding a "burglary tool" -- it was a screwdriver -- and "several pieces of stolen property."

"several pieces of stolen property." ftfy Bill.

Claimed by TM to belong to a friend, who strangely enough, never went to the school resource officer to collect his belongings. I wonder why ?

Then Whittle gos on to say that, "incredibly," school officials decided to list the stolen property as "found property" since they didn't want to do anything that would "reflect badly on black crime rates in the school system." And how does Bill Whittle know that? He doesn't say.

Because it is a widely known story.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/15/chief-charles-hurley-baker-act_n_1519015.html

And the M-D School Police officers admitted to that.
See, for example, page 87
http://www.scribd.com/doc/135564937/Sergeant-William-Tagle-Internal-Affairs-Investigative-Report

Then Whittle says that Trayvon Martin bought Skittles and Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail. "Not iced tea," Whittle says, accusing the prosecutors as having "continually kept up this deception," that it was ice tea. When it wasn't. Whittle says these are the ingredients needed to make a codeine-based concoction called Lean. Except you need Robitussin DM which Martin didn't have.

Was there any in the house ? We know TM frequently smoked dope.

Here is a link to a screen shot of TM facebook page, looking for codeine. You can just hand-wave it away as a fake if you want.

He also says the autopsy showed liver damage consistent with Lean abuse. And probably many other things as well.

There's more but this is adequate I think to suggest Whittle is a mirror image of what he's supposedly against. He's a media guy with an agenda and he's interpreting things to support his views and connect with his audience.

The bottom line remains, and this is the part I don't think Whittle has ever addressed:

George Zimmerman said he was on his way to the store when he passed Trayvon Martin. If Zimmerman had only kept on going none of this would've happened. Zimmerman would've gone to the store and Martin would've returned to his father's home.

If TM had just kept his hands in his pockets, none of this would've happened...

Does that mean Zimmerman is guilty of murder? No it doesn't. Did he willfully murder Trayvon Martin? We don't know that because we don't know what happened in the final few moments. We know there was a fight. We don't know what triggered it. We only have George Zimmerman's account -- a man who had just killed an unarmed 17-year-old youth -- to go by.

So there were no other witnesses ? No one who saw TM on top of GZ ?

The State of Florida charged Zimmerman with murder and a jury found the evidence was not adequate to convict. They didn't find Zimmerman Innocent. They found him Not Guilty.

Actually, the jury found that he was justified in his use of deadly force.

The use An issue in this case is whether George Zimmerman acted in self-defense. It is a defense to the crime of Second Degree Murder, and the lesser included offense of Manslaughter, if the death of Trayvon Martin resulted from the justifiable use of deadly force.

 

[Mister Earl]

We also find "Focal patchy yellow discoloration, due to mild fatty metamorphosis, is present. On sectioning, the hepatic parenchyma is yellow-brown, homogenous and congested." All perfectly normal in a 17 year old assuredly. An alcoholic obese 17 year old.

Maybe he found some he found some Robitussin in Brandy Green's medicine cabinet. Maybe he brought some DXM with him from Miami like he did his weed.

Maybe he was eating moon sugar he stole from some Khadjiit. None of this was proven to have altered Martin's behavior that night, so why does this matter? Or are you making the assertion that this makes it OK that Zimmerman shot and killed him?

 

[newyorkguy]

All the stuff about the school, what could've been in his father's bathroom, the circumstances of how he acquired the jewelry that he left in his locker, none of that was known to George Zimmerman so it's all basically irrelevant.

I'm conceding there was fight. None of the witnesses could clearly see who was on top of whom but it does sound like Martin was on top of Zimmerman.

Here's what I wonder. Who started it?

Zimmerman says he got out of his car to find an address. According to what I read, he lived in this development for several years. He was active on the NW, he made over forty calls to the SPD during that time. He had no idea where he was? He had to get out and look for a house number? The development isn't that big.

It's gated and Martin came through the gate. Was there a security person on-duty? (I'm asking, I don't know.) Did they stop him?

This happened at seven-thirty on a weekday evening. Were there any other motorists present? Did any of them call the police when they saw Martin?

Finally, a lot of the news articles you and others are referring to are not reporting on the incident. They're dated later on, they're reporting on the community protests that developed after Zimmerman was originally let go.

Btw, I have to look for this quote, but someone with the Sanford PD said the night of the shooting the lead investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman with murder. Why? Because he didn't believe his story. But in Florida all arrests have to be vetted by a state attorney. The SA did not feel the circumstances justified the charge.

 

[Upchurch]

His levels of THC were below impairment. But 1) I'm not talking about THC, in case you forgot, so that's quite irrelevant, and 2) the effects of DXM abuse can last beyond immediate intoxication, producing effects (such as paranoia and aggression) even when not "on" the drug.

Again, what's your point? Zimmerman was also taking drugs that can effect one's reactions and perceptions of events. The media wasn't exactly screaming that at the top of their lungs either. And neither of those facts informs us who was the initial aggressor in the confrontation.

So, what?

 

[Kestrel]

Maybe he found some he found some Robitussin in Brandy Green's medicine cabinet. Maybe he brought some DXM with him from Miami like he did his weed.

He also screwed up getting the other two ingredient. Drank is typically made with an ounce of cough syrup mixed with Sprite or a sports drink and a Jolly Rancher candy dissolved in for color. Skittles would not dissolve properly.

None of this really matters to the audience of right wing web sites were this story is being circulated.

 

[phillyboy]

Sure, Zimmerman forgot the cardinal safari park rule. Never get out of your vehicle.

I'm not sure of the gist of your point. Are you saying, metaphorically, that,
according to what we should ask of each other in a hopefully civilized society (as opposed to what is required of us of by our legal system) that it was wrong for George to get out of his vehicle?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Trayvon had committed minor offenses (graffiti, truancy, pot smoking, maybe petty theft, he had an image of a gun and a video of two homeless guys fighting on his cell phone).

Zimmerman had a gun, not just a picture. I fail to see how Trayvon's picture trumps an actual gun. Zimmerman carried his gun with a chambered bullet on a regular basis.
Zimmerman called police 46 times in eight years.

Did Trayvon Shooter Abuse 911?

For the most part, the nature of Zimmerman’s calls make him sound more like a curmudgeon than a vigilante protecting the Retreat at Twin Lakes, the 260-unit gated community where he lived and where he shot Martin. ...

But starting in 2011, Zimmerman’s calls increasingly focused on what he considered “suspicious” characters walking around the neighborhood—almost all of whom were young black males. ...

A review of police records confirms Taaffe’s account of crimes in the neighborhood. According to the Miami Herald, police were called to Twin Lakes 402 times in the 13 months before Martin’s death. According to the Herald’s review of police records, the community experienced eight burglaries, nine thefts, and a shooting over that period.

They cite 3 calls in addition to the Trayvon call where black men were suspicious to Zimmerman. I can't see that any of the suspicious persons GZ called about were ever found to be involved in an actual crime.

The neighborhood was 20% black according to The Daily Beast

One person apparently guilty of one burglary was a black teen that lived in the neighborhood, and the burglary with the woman and baby home at the time was by two black men.

The burglary of Olivia Bertalan’s home was just one of at least eight reported over the previous 14 months—several of which, neighbors said, involved young black men. ....

So of the 8 breakins, the suspects were black in 2 of them. I can't see anyone was arrested or seen in the other cases but I could have missed something.


For whatever reason, people either see an overzealous vigilante determined this black guy would not get away, or, they see a "thug" as TM has been described, who beat up a guy who simply followed him.

I realize it does no good to tell people that if you assume either of these scenarios could equally be true, the evidence still convicts GZ.

GZ wrongly profiled TM. GZ followed TM and made the comment, they always get away, on the recorded call. GZ's story about looking for an address was refuted by the evidence. There were no bushes for TM to jump out of and the location of the body was not where GZ said he was ambushed.

TM asked, "why are you following me" before any punches were thrown which rules out a sneak attack.

The gun had to be out before GZ claims his head was being bashed in, it's not possible GZ pulled it out given the circumstances he described.

Even the defense admitted GZ embellished the threat and exaggerated the injuries. They went on to claim it didn't matter because GZ says he feared for his life. And while the jury may not be allowed to consider the fact GZ would not take the stand, that doesn't preclude the rest of us from using that refusal when evaluating the facts in the case.

The way I see people's view of this case, they are defending the right of GZ to shoot someone who punched him. That fits with the gun culture that permeates people siding with GZ.

Does that mean it's OK to defend yourself with a gun, but if you fear for your life it's not OK to defend yourself with your fist? If you hit someone who is following you thinking you are a criminal, that is not self defense, but if you pull out a gun that is? TM was not allowed to fear GZ? Why, because being chased by a guy in the dark shouldn't scare you? Because GZ getting out of his car was OK but GZ not running to hide in his house was not?

 

[Natural Born Skeptic]

I'm not a Zimmerman supporter by any means, but I do strongly support the acquittal of any defendant when there is reasonable doubt in the case.

When it comes to race, it's likely that race contributed to the profile of Martin in Zimmerman's mind. The issue I (and likely many other non-black folks) have is that the anti-Zimmerman folks, many of whom are black, keep saying that race was THE reason Martin was profiled. That ignores what Zimmerman says on the NEN call about suspicious behavior, and I think we could all agree that if the person Zimmerman saw was a middle aged black guy walking his dog while holding an umbrella, he wouldn't have called the police. As such, it was Martin's behavior that caught Zimmerman's eye first. He probably also profiled him by his clothes as someone young, and of course he might have guessed he was black. But, the point here is that it's not like he was calling the police every time a black person was in his neighborhood. That means he was not simply profiling him as black.

That being said, I think I can appreciate how black Americans feel about being profiled, and like Obama said about the stuff about being followed in department stores, having a woman hold her purse tighter on an elevator, etc. I get that, and it must be insulting.

But, let's look at profiling in terms of gender instead of race. If it's late at night in a parking garage and woman by herself sees me, a strange man, she's likely going to make more of a concerted effort to get to the safety of her car than if I was another woman. Not only is that accepted as commonsense for women, but they are also taught that - to be wary of strange men late at night when they are vulnerable even though only a very low percentage of men even consider attacking a woman in that situation. It's gender based profiling, but we all get it and accept it.

Part of the acceptance of this gender based profiling is that we men understand the threat women feel due to the fact that some men indeed do attack women in those situations. Additionally, reasonable men know that it's better to act non-threatening in that situation in order to help alleviate suspicion. Thus, even though it might feel a bit insulting to be profiled as a potential attacker, I accept it as part of the reality of the social complexity of my community, and I do my part by doing what I can to appear non-threatening.

As a non-black person, I understand to some extent how it feels to be profiled, but one important difference between being profiled by gender vs. being profiled by race is that I accept it for it what it is because I realize, like it or not, that I AM a threat in SOME situations. And, perhaps even more importantly, I accept that because I have been taught to accept it. I haven't been told over and over that whenever a woman quickens her step in a vulnerable situation that she is sexist and insulting me. And, I haven't been taught that the solution to this problem is to argue with women in an effort to convince them that I'm not a threat and that they have no business profiling ME even though other men really are threats. Consequently, if we're going to talk about how to deal with race and racism, instead of stereotyping all instances where non-black people feel threatened in the presence of a black person as racism, there needs to be an honest distinction made between situations where the perception of a threat is legitimate and where it is not.

That's what I see missing here in the midst of the Zimmerman case - the refusal to acknowledge that even though Martin was likely doing nothing wrong, profiling him as suspicious was legitimate given the context of the situation, just as a woman has a legitimate concern that I might be suspicious if she sees me in the right situation.

This is an outstanding post that you took some time to write, and no one has acknowledged it, so I want to .

 

[TheL8Elvis]

All the stuff about the school, what could've been in his father's bathroom, the circumstances of how he acquired the jewelry that he left in his locker, none of that was known to George Zimmerman so it's all basically irrelevant.

Not really.

There was a media campaign to paint TM as an angel. The parents had a PR guy, for crying out loud !

It all goes to his character. TM was a JD, he liked to fo drugs, he liked to fight. His mother kicked him out of the house.

I'm conceding there was fight. None of the witnesses could clearly see who was on top of whom but it does sound like Martin was on top of Zimmerman.

What makes you think John Good couldn't clearly see who was on top ?

Here's what I wonder. Who started it?

Zimmerman says he got out of his car to find an address. According to what I read, he lived in this development for several years. He was active on the NW, he made over forty calls to the SPD during that time. He had no idea where he was? He had to get out and look for a house number? The development isn't that big.

Argument from incredulity.

Yup, it's all of 3 streets. He gets the address wrong for the clubhouse.
Listen to some of his other calls. He also botches directions.
Did you hear some of the witnesses who testified say they had forgotten the street names before ?
Did you hear that lady who testified about seeing GZ car that night ? Did you here her try to describe which street it was on, but name the wrong street ?

Was that all part of some master plan, or is it just possible GZ sucks at directions and street names ?

If you listen to the walk through, he said he knew that if walked all the way through (past the Tee) that was RVC (the street he lived on) and he get get a house number from there.

It's gated and Martin came through the gate. Was there a security person on-duty? (I'm asking, I don't know.) Did they stop him?

No, he came in through a cut-through by all accounts. There are no guards.

This happened at seven-thirty on a weekday evening. Were there any other motorists present? Did any of them call the police when they saw Martin?

Seven, not seven-thirty. And no, no other calls about TM.

Finally, a lot of the news articles you and others are referring to are not reporting on the incident. They're dated later on, they're reporting on the community protests that developed after Zimmerman was originally let go.

Who ? Relevance ?

Btw, I have to look for this quote, but someone with the Sanford PD said the night of the shooting the lead investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman with murder. Why? Because he didn't believe his story. But in Florida all arrests have to be vetted by a state attorney. The SA did not feel the circumstances justified the charge.

Yes.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...george-michael-zimmerman-second-degree-murder
SANFORD – After Chris Serino, the Sanford police detective who led the investigation into the Trayvon Martin shooting death, wrote the most important police report in the case, he revised it at least four times.

And he made at least one huge change: He initially said George Zimmerman should be charged with second-degree murder, then changed course and recommended a charge of manslaughter, according to a prosecutor and new list of evidence.


Relevance ?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Trayvon had committed minor offenses (graffiti, truancy, pot smoking, maybe petty theft, he had an image of a gun and a video of two homeless guys fighting on his cell phone).

Zimmerman had a gun, not just a picture. I fail to see how Trayvon's picture trumps an actual gun. Zimmerman carried his gun with a chambered bullet on a regular basis.
Zimmerman called police 46 times in eight years.

So TM was a JD, and GZ was a responsible gun owner. We knew that.

Did Trayvon Shooter Abuse 911?They cite 3 calls in addition to the Trayvon call where black men were suspicious to Zimmerman. I can't see that any of the suspicious persons GZ called about were ever found to be involved in an actual crime.

The neighborhood was 20% black according to The Daily Beast

One person apparently guilty of one burglary was a black teen that lived in the neighborhood, and the burglary with the woman and baby home at the time was by two black men. So of the 8 breakins, the suspects were black in 2 of them. I can't see anyone was arrested or seen in the other cases but I could have missed something.

For whatever reason, people either see an overzealous vigilante determined this black guy would not get away, or, they see a "thug" as TM has been described, who beat up a guy who simply followed him.

I realize it does no good to tell people that if you assume either of these scenarios could equally be true, the evidence still convicts GZ.

Someone forgot to tell the jury that.

GZ wrongly profiled TM. GZ followed TM and made the comment, they always get away, on the recorded call. GZ's story about looking for an address was refuted by the evidence. There were no bushes for TM to jump out of and the location of the body was not where GZ said he was ambushed.

TM asked, "why are you following me" before any punches were thrown which rules out a sneak attack.

Yes, because anytime someone speaks to me, I immediately expect it to be followed up with a punch to my face.

The gun had to be out before GZ claims his head was being bashed in, it's not possible GZ pulled it out given the circumstances he described.

You should tell the assistant SA John Guy that. Because he made a whole argument about how TM was getting off of GZ and that is when GZ pulled the gun out. Not before. After.

Even the defense admitted GZ embellished the threat and exaggerated the injuries. They went on to claim it didn't matter because GZ says he feared for his life. And while the jury may not be allowed to consider the fact GZ would not take the stand, that doesn't preclude the rest of us from using that refusal when evaluating the facts in the case.

The way I see people's view of this case, they are defending the right of GZ to shoot someone who punched him. That fits with the gun culture that permeates people siding with GZ.

Does that mean it's OK to defend yourself with a gun, but if you fear for your life it's not OK to defend yourself with your fist? If you hit someone who is following you thinking you are a criminal, that is not self defense, but if you pull out a gun that is? TM was not allowed to fear GZ? Why, because being chased by a guy in the dark shouldn't scare you? Because GZ getting out of his car was OK but GZ not running to hide in his house was not?

You can't simply assault people who you think are following you. You seem to keep missing that point. And since we have no evidence that anything other than that happened ...

 

[bynmdsue]

I'm not sure of the gist of your point. Are you saying, metaphorically, that,
according to what we should ask of each other in a hopefully civilized society (as opposed to what is required of us of by our legal system) that it was wrong for George to get out of his vehicle?

That seems to be the consensus. He screwed up by getting out of the truck. He set everything in motion with that one act.

 

[bynmdsue]

Zimmerman carried his gun with a chambered bullet on a regular basis.
Zimmerman called police 46 times in eight years.

A) The gun doesn't work without one in the pipe and you could make it sound scarier by referring to it as "overloaded" like the prosecution did. Oh, and don't forget the lack of a manual safety.

B) Did you catch any of the testimony of the PD's NW coordinator? She explained that as the volunteer captain the other residents called GZ and then he would call the police so the dispatcher wouldn't be inundated with multiple calls concerning the same incident.

 

[Kestrel]

Maybe he was eating moon sugar he stole from some Khadjiit. None of this was proven to have altered Martin's behavior that night, so why does this matter? Or are you making the assertion that this makes it OK that Zimmerman shot and killed him?

It's called demonizing the victim. The same tactic as bringing up a rape victim's sexual exploits so the people start thinking of her as a slut.

The latest claim about LEAN is completely bogus, but will play well with the crowd that still believes that Obama was born in Kenya.