Texas Repubs pass abortion bill

[respect]

I described it above. You even replied to the post where I did so.

Philosophical ideas about what it means to be a human being/person are all well and good and can play an important part in abortion discussions as well as stem cell research discussions. However, the pro-life side is correct when they say that fetuses are humans. You can reasonable argue that the development of various features informs its rights, but you cannot win an argument saying that a fetus is not a human because that is the biological/taxonomic definition rather than the more philosophical one you want to use. You would be better off arguing that rights increase as maturity does rather than trying to hand wave away the definition of "human" because taxonomy just doesn't count somehow.

 

[A'isha]

Philosophical ideas about what it means to be a human being/person are all well and good and can play an important part in abortion discussions as well as stem cell research discussions. However, the pro-life side is correct when they say that fetuses are humans. You can reasonable argue that the development of various features informs its rights, but you cannot win an argument saying that a fetus is not a human because that is the biological/taxonomic definition rather than the more philosophical one you want to use. You would be better off arguing that rights increase as maturity does rather than trying to hand wave away the definition of "human" because taxonomy just doesn't count somehow.

Is a removed human heart in an ice chest awaiting transplantation something other than a human taxonomically? Is it a human being? Is there something that a human being, like you or I, possesses that this isolated organ does not?

 

[RandFan]

All organisms belong to a species.

That does not make them "a human". It makes them human. Sperm and skin cells are human.

Look at the photo again. The cells on the right are a full compliment of human chromosomes. Functionally they are no different from the cells on the left.

You are choosing an arbitrary line in the sand as to what is a human being and what isn't. You are using language to obscure the discussion. We often refer to dead humans as human beings but there is a fundamental difference between a living human being and a dead one. That we think of dead people as people doesn't mean that they are entitled to the rights of human beings.

You are equivocating the term "a human". You are propagating the idea that a fetus is a human being by definition and you are using special pleading to do so.

 

[respect]

Sigh, this does not mean that a fetus is a member of the genus homo sapiens. It is human but not necessarily a member.

Skin cells are human. Does that make each "a human"?

No, the individual cells of a multicelluar organism are not organisms themselves. All organisms belong to a species, and only organisms belong to a species. There are no organisms that are not the member of a species and their are no members of a species that are not organisms.

This has been explained to you numerous times, that you choose to remain so ignorant of basic biological concepts renders you a very bad spokesman for the pro-choice movement. Many can make strong arguments for abortion rights without spewing absolute nonsense about how fetuses are somehow not in the same genus as their parents, you should leave it to them.

 

[RandFan]

However, the pro-life side is correct when they say that fetuses are humans.

Argument by assertion. Just because you declare them "correct" doesn't make them correct. Further, it's an equivocation of the word. A fetus is a far cry from a human being.

Sperm from a human is human. If the sperm is living then it is a living human cell. That it is human doesn't make it "a human".

Is sperm from a human being, human? Yes or no. Wouldn't that make it by definition a human being using your logic of human by definition?

hu·man (hymn)
n.
1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.

Please tell me how a homo sapient sperm cell is not a human by your logic and definition?

 

[respect]

That does not make them "a human". It makes them human. Sperm and skin cells are human.

Look at the photo again. The cells on the right are a full compliment of human chromosomes. Functionally they are no different from the cells on the left.

[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img803/74/beforeandafterfertilizam.jpg[/qimg]

You are choosing an arbitrary line in the sand as to what is a human being and what isn't. You are using language to obscure the discussion. We often refer to dead humans as human beings but there is a fundamental difference between a living human being and a dead one. That we think of dead people as people doesn't mean that they are entitled to the rights of human beings.

You are equivocating the term "a human". You are propagating the idea that a fetus is a human being by definition and you are using special pleading to do so.

What nonsense. You want to use human as an adjective, I am using it as a noun. Your observation that human (adjective, relating to humanity) blood cells are not humans (noun, members of the homo genus) is just you trying to bastardize language to justify your nonsensical ramblings.

 

[RandFan]

No, the individual cells of a multicelluar organism are not organisms themselves.

Condeded. But you are ignoring your own logic.

Such cells are human and therefore by your logic and definition they are human beings.

This has been explained to you numerous times, that you choose to remain so ignorant of basic biological concepts renders you a very bad spokesman for the pro-choice movement.

My position is the same as PZ Myers. A developmental biologist. And this is attacking the person. It is against forum rules. It's been reported.

 

[RandFan]

What nonsense. You want to use human as an adjective, I am using it as a noun. Your observation that human (adjective, relating to humanity) blood cells are not humans (noun, members of the homo genus) is just you trying to bastardize language to justify your nonsensical ramblings.

You need to go look in the mirror. You also need to take a deep breath.

You have defined a human being as that which is human.

hu·man (hymn)
n.
1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.

Your premise:

Human = human being.

 

[respect]

Argument by assertion. Just because you declare them "correct" doesn't make them correct. Further, it's an equivocation of the word. A fetus is a far cry from a human being.

Sperm from a human is human. If the sperm is living then it is a living human cell. That it is human doesn't make it "a human".

Is sperm from a human being, human? Yes or no. Wouldn't that make it by definition a human being using your logic of human by definition?

Please tell me how a homo sapient sperm cell is not a human by your logic and definition?

Sigh...

Once again, the individual cells of a multicellular organism are not organisms themselves.

 

[RandFan]

Sigh...

Once again, the individual cells of a multicellular organism are not organisms themselves.

sigh...

Once again, I conceded that point in this thread before you ever posted. In fact, you quoted me saying that very thing.

The dictionary defintion that you provided does not use the term "organism". Further, you have provided no (zero, zilch, nada) for your assertion.

 

[respect]

Condeded. But you are ignoring your own logic.

Such cells are human and therefore by your logic and definition they are human beings.

My position is the same as PZ Myers. A developmental biologist. And this is attacking the person. It is against forum rules. It's been reported.

Poor guy.

Your blood cells are not members of the homo genus, you are. If you are having this much trouble understanding the difference between adjectives and nouns as well as the difference between a multicellular organism and the cells that it is made out of I don't see how you can carry on this conversation without brushing up on the meanings of those terms.

 

[gnome]

I still think the semantics are a distraction from the real issue.

 

[RandFan]

Poor guy.

Your blood cells are not members of the homo genus, you are. If you are having this much trouble understanding the difference between adjectives and nouns as well as the difference between a multicellular organism and the cells that it is made out of I don't see how you can carry on this conversation without brushing up on the meanings of those terms.

This is all hand waving and does not address the arguments I've made. Further there is at least one straw man.

• Sperm are things. They are human. They are living human things.
• That something is a human organism doesn't make it a human being.

 

[respect]

sigh...

Once again, I conceded that point in this thread before you ever posted. In fact, you quoted me saying that very thing.

The dictionary defintion that you provided does not use the term "organism". Further, you have provided no (zero, zilch, nada) for your assertion.

Sigh...

Biological classifications.

Are you really doubting that organisms are classified into groups like their genus and species? In a species' name the first word is a reference to the genus, the second is name of the species. For example, homo is our genus, sapiens is our species.

 

[RandFan]

Sigh...

Biological classifications.

Are you really doubting that organisms are classified into groups like their genus and species? In a species' name the first word is a reference to the genus, the second is name of the species. For example, homo is our genus, sapiens is our species.

Sigh...

What species is homo sapien sperm cells? Where does it state that any human cell capable of replication is a human being?

 

[uke2se]

Sigh...

Biological classifications.

Are you really doubting that organisms are classified into groups like their genus and species? In a species' name the first word is a reference to the genus, the second is name of the species. For example, homo is our genus, sapiens is our species.

Stop it with the semantics. Are you saying that a fertilized human ovum is the same thing as a human being, with the same rights and privileges? Yes or no?

 

[RandFan]

BTW: Respect, YOU are the one who used the dictionary definition of the adjective "human" to turn an organism into an adjective "human being". You are the one equivicating the words "human" and "human being".

I'm NOT using those terms interchangeable as you are. I distinguish between human and human being.

• Sperm is human.
• Sperm is not therefore "a human being".

 

[respect]

[*]That something is a human organism doesn't make it a human being.
[/LIST]

The way you are using the term human being is strictly in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't have a definitive definition the way that taxonomy classifies a fetus as a human does.

You would be wise to concede that a fetus is biologically a human (your insistence that it isn't is quite silly) but you don't think it qualifies for a different concept of personhood until it can think and feel. That is what the biologists you are citing are doing, even if they are not being very clear about it. Philosophical notions about what it means to be a human being/person are debatable but make a lot more sense than trying to hand wave away the biological definition of a human.

 

[respect]

Sigh...

What species is homo sapien sperm cells? Where does it state that any human cell capable of replication is a human being?

Sperm cells are not the members of any species.

 

[uke2se]

The way you are using the term human being is strictly in the eye of the beholder. It doesn't have a definitive definition the way that taxonomy classifies a fetus as a human does.

You would be wise to concede that a fetus is biologically a human (your insistence that it isn't is quite silly) but you don't think it qualifies for a different concept of personhood until it can think and feel. That is what the biologists you are citing are doing, even if they are not being very clear about it. Philosophical notions about what it means to be a human being/person are debatable but make a lot more sense than trying to hand wave away the biological definition of a human.

A fetus is no more a human, than a caterpillar is a butterfly.