Merged Relativity+ / Farsight

What do you mean by that? Energy is fundamental, it's the one thing we can neither create nor destroy, matter is made of it. More generally we talk of Noether's theorem. Are you saying that some cosmologists think energy is not conserved?
Since you are aware of Noether's Theorem perhaps you would like to consider how you define an invariant energy in a spacetime background where time translation symmetries do not hold in quite the way one might like.

As 'the relativity guy' one might imagine you were aware of this.
 
The point is that we don't know that the actual universe is more than 20 times larger than the observable universe. Come on edd, you know I'm right about this. Back me up.

I'm off out.

I think I stated my position carefully and clearly.

I also without doubt think you are wrong an awful awful lot but this wouldn't be the first time I've expressed a small very carefully worded element of agreement with you.
 
It just isn't true, Vorpal. The universe can be homogeneous without being infinite.
I have never claimed that homogeneity implies infinitude. Ever.
In post #1016 you said this:

"That's not an assumption. The FLRW model assumptions are that the universe is homogeneous and globally isotropic. If that's assumed, then the only possible flat spatial geometry is that of the (infinite) Euclidean plane".
If you would but read that statement carefully, you would notice that it says there is an extra assumption in addition to homogeneity, such that together they would imply that the only flat geometry is infinite. If I thought homogeneity alone was sufficient, why would I have specified that extra assumption? Additionally, I gave extra emphasis to the hypothetical nature of those assumptions because I expected you to misinterpret me as claiming that the universe is actually infinite and flat. In hindsight, I've vastly underestimated your ability to misread things.

As it happens I'm happy that on a large scale, bigger than stars and galaxies and clusters, the universe is homogeneous and isotropic. However I'm not happy that the only possible spatial geometry is that of an infinite Euclidean plane. I think there's another possibility: that space is a 3-sphere, beyond which there is no space, so there is no beyond it.
That doesn't even make internal sense because a 3-sphere wouldn't be flat and there would be trivially nothing beyond it because spheres don't have boundaries.
Perhaps you meant that that the universe is a ball instead (i.e., like the interior of a sphere) with nothing beyond that ball. That would be strange for a variety of reasons but at least coherent.

In fact, I very explicitly claimed that it can be homogeneous without being infinite just recently, in this thread, in one of the posts you've quoted me on (post #1011).
You referred to a torus, which has the same topology as a chocolate teapot.
For reference, here's the rest of post #1011:
Yeah; I was wondering why he doesn't want a flat torus because it achieves all the stated goals so far--flatness and finitude--without really wonky edges.​
By referring to a flat torus, I'm giving an example of a geometry that is both homogeneous and finite. You've interpreted me as saying that homogeneity implies infinitude (if flat). At this point, you are quite literally interpreting me as saying the complete opposite of what I actually said.

We have no evidence for it, or for any intrinsic curvature in some higher dimension.
Wait, do you think that the universe being spatially a flat torus would imply there being higher dimensions? If so, you are mistaken.

The Planck mission looked for evidence of this and found none, see this paper which edd referred to in the Planck thread.

Sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying Vorpal. But read your posts again, it does rather sound as if you're claiming that the universe is either infinite or a torus.
Um... no? I have no idea how you could possible be reading that into my posts. Look at post #1011 again, for example: I was expressing curiosity about your reasons, not advancing any particular claims about the actual universe. Which I suppose the above bit partially answers, but I shan't make the error of idly wondering about your thought processes again.

Ergo then the only possible flat spatial geometry is that of the (infinite) Euclidean plane is not accurate.
Do you not understand the concept of a conditional statement? Let's walk through this.
If [it's] assumed [that the universe is both homogeneous and globally isotropic], then the only possible flat spatial geometry is that of the (infinite) Euclidean plane.​
By making a conditional statement, it is claimed that it is impossible for the conclusion to be false simultaneously with the premise being true. Thus if the premise is denied, then nothing whatsover is claimed about the truth or falsity of the conclusion. For example, a universe that is spatially a ball is not globally isotropic because for observers at most positions, there is an edge at different distances away, depending on direction. Thus not all directions are equivalent for those observers, though there is still a local isotropy sans edge.

I really don't think it is, Vorpal. The standard model of cosmology says the universe started small and has been expanding for 13.8 billion years. The stress-energy tensor features pressure. If that pressure is counterbalanced at all locations, it cannot result in expansion. I think the mistake is to claim that the expanding universe is infinite, and started out infinite.
If you deny that FLRW family of spacetime geometries solve Einstein's equations and are homogeneous and globally isotropic, pinpoint where you think the error is. As for the last bit, I'll simply note that it being a mistake to claim X does not mean that it's not also a mistake to claim not-X.

... didn't Einstein proposed a 4-sphere rather than a 3-sphere?
No.

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A universe that is spatially a 3-sphere is a valid solution of general relativity. Of course, that doesn't mean that it is real. To continue the previous analogy, an everywhere-constant magnetic field is a valid solution of Maxwell's equations, but that doesn't mean the actual universe has such a field.
I don't understand your analogy I'm afraid. The field concerned is the electromagnetic field. A "magnetic field" is the result of electromagnetic field interactions where linear forces cancel but rotational forces don't.
Are you kidding me? If I said something like
An everywhere-constant electromagnetic field tensor with vanishing non-spatial components is a valid solution of Maxwell's equations, ...​
then would you understand it? Good grief.

I'm all for taking Fμν as the fundamental object, but really all that means is that the usual B is the 3D Hodge dual of the bivector formed by the spatial components of the electromagnetic tensor. Well, there's also the fairly popular complex representation F = E + iB, but whatever. Anyone who understand EM shouldn't have trouble translating that statement into their favorite notation. Or even need to in the first place.
 
Since you are aware of Noether's Theorem perhaps you would like to consider how you define an invariant energy in a spacetime background where time translation symmetries do not hold in quite the way one might like. As 'the relativity guy' one might imagine you were aware of this.
Yes, I'm the relativity guy, the one who has read all the Einstein material, including his E=mc² paper. Edd, are you saying energy is not conserved? Seriously?

edd said:
I think I stated my position carefully and clearly. I also without doubt think you are wrong an awful awful lot but this wouldn't be the first time I've expressed a small very carefully worded element of agreement with you.
That sounds like a grudging concession that I'm right, and we don't know that the universe is more than 20 times bigger than the observable universe. Nevermind, let's move on.
 
Yes, I'm the relativity guy, the one who has read all the Einstein material, including his E=mc² paper. Edd, are you saying energy is not conserved? Seriously?
It sounds to me like he's saying that while energy is conserved, we have to be careful about what we consider to be the implications of that statement.

That sounds like a grudging concession that I'm right, and we don't know that the universe is more than 20 times bigger than the observable universe. Nevermind, let's move on.

It sounds more to me like he's saying that while it's not entirely conclusive that the universe is more than 20 times bigger than the observable universe, there there are some good reasons to think it is.
 
If you would but read that statement carefully, you would notice that it says there is an extra assumption in addition to homogeneity, such that together they would imply that the only flat geometry is infinite. If I thought homogeneity alone was sufficient, why would I have specified that extra assumption? Additionally, I gave extra emphasis to the hypothetical nature of those assumptions because I expected you to misinterpret me as claiming that the universe is actually infinite and flat. In hindsight, I've vastly underestimated your ability to misread things.
Homogeneity is uniformity, isotropy is uniformity in all orientations. What's to misread?

Vorpal said:
That doesn't even make internal sense because a 3-sphere wouldn't be flat and there would be trivially nothing beyond it because spheres don't have boundaries. Perhaps you meant that that the universe is a ball instead (i.e., like the interior of a sphere) with nothing beyond that ball. That would be strange for a variety of reasons but at least coherent.
Yes, I meant ball in the mathematical sense, somebody else said a universe that is spatially a 3-sphere, and I took this to be a sphere in the common-usage sense. A non-mathematician thinks of a sphere as a ball rather than the surface of a ball.

Vorpal said:
For reference, here's the rest of post #1011:
Yeah; I was wondering why he doesn't want a flat torus because it achieves all the stated goals so far--flatness and finitude--without really wonky edges.​
By referring to a flat torus, I'm giving an example of a geometry that is both homogeneous and finite. You've interpreted me as saying that homogeneity implies infinitude (if flat). At this point, you are quite literally interpreting me as saying the complete opposite of what I actually said.
Utmost apologies Vorpal. I prostrate myself at your feet and beg your forgiveness.

Vorpal said:
Wait, do you think that the universe being spatially a flat torus would imply there being higher dimensions? If so, you are mistaken.
Please explain. Use a universe that isn't expanding for simplicity, and imagine we shine a light beam in a straight line.

Vorpal said:
Um... no? I have no idea how you could possible be reading that into my posts. Look at post #1011 again, for example: I was expressing curiosity about your reasons, not advancing any particular claims about the actual universe. Which I suppose the above bit partially answers, but I shan't make the error of idly wondering about your thought processes again.
I looked at it again. My thought processes involve Einstein describing a gravitational field as being where “empty space” in its physical relation is neither homogeneous nor isotropic. With no gravitational field, space is homogeneous and isotropic, and the universe has expanded. So I think the assumption that the general-relativistic FLRW models make is OK. I can see no scope for a torus.

Vorpal said:
Do you not understand the concept of a conditional statement? Let's walk through this.
If [it's] assumed [that the universe is both homogeneous and globally isotropic], then the only possible flat spatial geometry is that of the (infinite) Euclidean plane.​
By making a conditional statement, it is claimed that it is impossible for the conclusion to be false simultaneously with the premise being true. Thus if the premise is denied, then nothing whatsover is claimed about the truth or falsity of the conclusion. For example, a universe that is spatially a ball is not globally isotropic because for observers at most positions, there is an edge at different distances away, depending on direction. Thus not all directions are equivalent for those observers, though there is still a local isotropy sans edge.
OK I understand what you're saying now. The globally is the key word, and it makes the statement somewhat tautological. You can render it down to if the universe is flat and edgeless, it is infinite.

Vorpal said:
If you deny that FLRW family of spacetime geometries solve Einstein's equations and are homogeneous and globally isotropic, pinpoint where you think the error is.
The error is in the word globally. It's loaded. Delete it.

Vorpal said:
As for the last bit, I'll simply note that it being a mistake to claim X does not mean that it's not also a mistake to claim not-X.
No problem.

Vorpal said:
See wiki which says Einstein's static universe is closed (i.e. has hyperspherical topology and positive spatial curvature). A hypersphere is a 4-sphere. Please explain why Einstein proposed a 3-sphere rather than a 4-sphere.

Vorpal said:
Are you kidding me? If I said something like
An everywhere-constant electromagnetic field tensor with vanishing non-spatial components is a valid solution of Maxwell's equations, ...​
then would you understand it? Good grief.
I understood it last time.

Vorpal said:
I'm all for taking Fμν as the fundamental object, but really all that means is that the usual B is the 3D Hodge dual of the bivector formed by the spatial components of the electromagnetic tensor. Well, there's also the fairly popular complex representation F = E + iB, but whatever. Anyone who understand EM shouldn't have trouble translating that statement into their favorite notation. Or even need to in the first place.
I understand EM, Vorpal. Don't take Fμν as the fundamental object. See this. But let's not get bogged down on electromagnetism. Let's talk cosmology.

As I was saying, the standard model of cosmology indicates that the universe started small, WMAP suggests its flat, Planck corroborated this, as far as we know it's been expanding for 13.8 billion years, and here we are: the universe didn't collapse when it was small and dense. The GR stress-energy-momentum tensor features pressure, and dark energy was described as pressure by Phil Plait. If that "pressure" is counterbalanced at all locations because the universe is infinite, it cannot result in expansion, can it?

How can an infinite universe expand? Answers on a postcard please.
 
It sounds to me like he's saying that while energy is conserved, we have to be careful about what we consider to be the implications of that statement.
No problem with that, Robo. But [Farsight narrows his eyes] I fear he was saying he doesn't hold with conservation of energy.

Roboramma said:
It sounds more to me like he's saying that while it's not entirely conclusive that the universe is more than 20 times bigger than the observable universe, there there are some good reasons to think it is.
Maybe he is. I have to say though that I don't think there are any good reasons at all. I should explain I suppose:

On the large scale the universe is homogeneous and isotropic. Let's set aside "globally isotropic" aside for a moment, because it's loaded. Let's also set expansion to one side, and remember Einstein describing a gravitational field as a place where empty space in its physical relation is neither homogeneous nor isotropic. We refer to a gravitational field as spacetime curvature. In a place where space is homogeneous and isotropic, there's no gravity and no spacetime curvature, and no spatial curvature. Light goes straight. And yet when people see this, they say wow, the radius of curvature of the universe must be really really big. And I'm saying what curvature?
 
Wait, do you think that the universe being spatially a flat torus would imply there being higher dimensions? If so, you are mistaken.

I'm afraid Farsight may be right about that. A torus is not a space, it's a 3-d surface imbedded in 3-space. Any point on the Torus surface can be defined with 3 euclidian coordinates. If you want to make a space out of a torus, you'll have to add a dimension.

It is unfortunate when Farsight is right about something. It makes him think he's right about everything. Look at the recent avalanche of verbosity, and you'll see the results.
 
I'm afraid Farsight may be right about that. A torus is not a space, it's a 3-d surface imbedded in 3-space. Any point on the Torus surface can be defined with 3 euclidian coordinates. If you want to make a space out of a torus, you'll have to add a dimension.

It is unfortunate when Farsight is right about something. It makes him think he's right about everything. Look at the recent avalanche of verbosity, and you'll see the results.

Don't worry, he's wrong about this too. A 3-torus is a perfectly fine 3 dimensional space. It has zero extrinsic curvature (so it's flat), finite volume, is homogeneous but not isotropic, and is a possible geometry for the universe on large scales. In the simplest cases you can think of it as defined by 3 (not 4) Euclidean coordinates, but with identifications (i.e. x is identified with x+L1, y with y+L2, and z with z+L3).

Of course you can embed a 3-torus in 4D Euclidean space, but there is no mathematical of physical reason to do so. And for those that find that difficult to understand, it might (or might not) help to learn that another possible geometry for the universe - negatively curved hyperbolic 3-space - is also just fine as an intrinsic geometry, and cannot be embedded in Euclidean 4-space.
 
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Thankyou Toontown. I'm right about more things than some people here will admit to. Rather than admit I'm right, they go all quiet on us. You get a brownie point from me for showing sincerity.

I am right, sol. If you want to peddle the notion that the universe is some kind of polo-mint or Dixie doughnut, be my guest. Or if you'd prefer to claim it's a doughnut made of mathematics, presumably sprinkled with holographic sugar, and with the topology of a teacup, go right ahead.

OK, gotta go.
 
Yes, I'm the relativity guy, the one who has read all the Einstein material, including his E=mc² paper. Edd, are you saying energy is not conserved? Seriously?
Pretty much yes.

That sounds like a grudging concession that I'm right, and we don't know that the universe is more than 20 times bigger than the observable universe. Nevermind, let's move on.

I'm saying I thought it was fairly clear that on that one point I agreed, and I felt it was clear what I said the first time, let alone the second.
 
I am right, sol. If you want to peddle the notion that the universe is some kind of polo-mint or Dixie doughnut, be my guest. Or if you'd prefer to claim it's a doughnut made of mathematics, presumably sprinkled with holographic sugar, and with the topology of a teacup, go right ahead.

OK, gotta go.

That's a gross distortion of what sol said, and you know it -- as usual.

Clearly, Mr. Duffield is an advocate of debating by defense through strong and belligerent offense. However, his bombastic tone and continuing straw man tactics are of no avail. We can all see through his bluster and fantasy physics. He is fooling only himself -- and maybe when he looks in the mirror -- not even himself.
 
Homogeneity is uniformity, isotropy is uniformity in all orientations. What's to misread?
Isotropy refers to geometry being independent of direction. Homogeneity does not imply isotropy; a good example of that is a cylinder, which wraps around in one direction but not in another, but is still homogeneous. Thus, by ignoring that condition, you're greatly misinterpreting the statement.

BTW, in more common geometric usage unqualified 'isotropy' is the same as 'global isotropy'; I was just a bit more explicit.

Yes, I meant ball in the mathematical sense, somebody else said a universe that is spatially a 3-sphere, and I took this to be a sphere in the common-usage sense. A non-mathematician thinks of a sphere as a ball rather than the surface of a ball.
It isn't, and that's a dangerous attitude to take in a context that's heavily mathematical. Particularly since it's responsible for some of your confusions, including one below.

Please explain. Use a universe that isn't expanding for simplicity, and imagine we shine a light beam in a straight line.
Let's take a particular flat 2-torus for simplicity. Imagine a square of side length 2, with Cartesian coordinates with origin at the center and axes aligned in the obvious way (parallel to sides). But unlike a square, the sides are identified: (x,-1)~(x,+1) and (-1,y)~(+1,y). The coordinates refer to the same point on the manifold. A more convenient definition is ℝ²/ℤ, or if we're talking about topology, a 3-torus is the product of three circles S¹×S¹×S¹, though both of these may be more cryptic for people unused to these areas of mathematics.

That means if you're at the origin and you shine a light beam along the x-axis, it will eventually hit you in the back: it will go from (0,0) to (1,0), which is the same as (-1,0), and proceeds still along the x-axis to (0,0). Similarly for many other directions, but not all: if the slope of the light beam direction is irrational in these coordinates, then it will never reach the origin again, although it may come arbitrarily close. Thus the flat torus fails to be isotropic, as not all directions behave in the same way.

A flat 3-torus is completely analogous. Note in particular there's no mention of any higher-dimensional space. Any embedding to a higher-dimensional manifold would be purely a convenience for some purposes and not at all necessary for any intrinsic properties.

OK I understand what you're saying now. The globally is the key word, and it makes the statement somewhat tautological. You can render it down to if the universe is flat and edgeless, it is infinite.
Not so. The flat torus is flat and edgeless, but not infinite. In a sense all valid mathematical theorems are tautologous, but your interpretation of it is still incorrect.

The error is in the word globally. It's loaded. Delete it.
Like I said, in the common geometric usage, unqualified 'isotropic' means 'globally isotropic' already.

See wiki which says Einstein's static universe is closed (i.e. has hyperspherical topology and positive spatial curvature). A hypersphere is a 4-sphere. Please explain why Einstein proposed a 3-sphere rather than a 4-sphere.
You're making essentially the same mistake as above. A 4-sphere is indeed a hypersphere, but a 3-sphere is also a hypersphere. The usual sphere such as the surface of a common ball or (a somewhat idealized) Earth is a 2-sphere because it is 2-dimensional.

The topology of the Einstein static universe is ℝ×S³, one dimension of time and three dimensions of space, the latter of which form a 3-sphere.

I understand EM, Vorpal. Don't take Fμν as the fundamental object. See this. But let's not get bogged down on electromagnetism. Let's talk cosmology.
Ok.

The GR stress-energy-momentum tensor features pressure, and dark energy was described as pressure by Phil Plait. If that "pressure" is counterbalanced at all locations because the universe is infinite, it cannot result in expansion, can it?
Of course it can. There's nothing wrong with the FLRW family of solutions.
Perhaps you're thinking of there being no movement through space whenever the pressure is uniform. But in the comoving frame of FRLW solutions where pressure is so 'balanced', the galaxies are stationary (on averfage) and space is expanding.

How can an infinite universe expand? Answers on a postcard please.
"On a poscard", huh? As an idealization, imagine an infinite line of equally spaced galaxies:
Code:
    ...-*-*-*-*-*-...
  ...-*--*--*--*--*-...
...-*---*---*---*---*-...
There's nothing whatsoever conceptually difficult about space between galaxies stretching.

---
I'm afraid Farsight may be right about that. A torus is not a space, it's a 3-d surface imbedded in 3-space. Any point on the Torus surface can be defined with 3 euclidian coordinates. If you want to make a space out of a torus, you'll have to add a dimension.
That's like saying that a Euclidean plane is not a space but a surface embedded in 3-space. An embedding may be practically useful for certain things, but it isn't necessary. Besides, the flat 3-torus we're talking about cannot be embedded in (Euclidean) 3-space. See above for one way to think of a flat 2-torus without any higher-dimensional space; a flat 3-torus is straightforwardly analogous and has been covered in sol invictus's post.
 
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I wanted to find more detail to support my broad statement that energy need not be conserved, since clearly it is very often a powerful principle indeed. Amongst the better explanations by people I am willing to send traffic to is this:
http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2010/02/22/energy-is-not-conserved/

This is not uncommon knowledge amongst people with some grasp of GR. I find it boggling that someone namechecking Noether and claiming a good understanding of general relativity would find this surprising.

At least I would if I didn't have prior experience of Farsight, anyway.
 
I wanted to find more detail to support my broad statement that energy need not be conserved, since clearly it is very often a powerful principle indeed. Amongst the better explanations by people I am willing to send traffic to is this:
http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2010/02/22/energy-is-not-conserved/

This is not uncommon knowledge amongst people with some grasp of GR. I find it boggling that someone namechecking Noether and claiming a good understanding of general relativity would find this surprising.

At least I would if I didn't have prior experience of Farsight, anyway.

I actually strongly disagree with Sean - or at least, I disagree with the way he explains this. He says people will be confused by referring to gravitational binding energy because it's negative. But Newtonian gravity is not very mysterious, and no one would ever say that energy isn't conserved there - and yet gravitational potential energy is negative for exactly the same reason.

I mean, if you throw a rock in the air and it comes back down, does anyone shout "energy isn't conserved"? Of course not, because they know about gravitational energy. Cosmology is almost exactly the same.

As for defining a local energy density, it's true this can't be done in GR. It's also true that the total energy is identically zero if the universe is closed, which isn't very convenient. But claiming that energy isn't conserved because of these issues is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The Einstein action coupled to matter is time-translation invariant, so it conserves energy by Noether's theorem (actually the problems I mentioned arise because it's more than just time-translation invariant, it's invariant under time reparametrizations).
 
Don't worry, he's wrong about this too. A 3-torus is a perfectly fine 3 dimensional space. It has zero extrinsic curvature (so it's flat), finite volume, is homogeneous but not isotropic, and is a possible geometry for the universe on large scales. In the simplest cases you can think of it as defined by 3 (not 4) Euclidean coordinates, but with identifications (i.e. x is identified with x+L1, y with y+L2, and z with z+L3).

Of course you can embed a 3-torus in 4D Euclidean space, but there is no mathematical of physical reason to do so. And for those that find that difficult to understand, it might (or might not) help to learn that another possible geometry for the universe - negatively curved hyperbolic 3-space - is also just fine as an intrinsic geometry, and cannot be embedded in Euclidean 4-space.

That's like saying that a Euclidean plane is not a space but a surface embedded in 3-space. An embedding may be practically useful for certain things, but it isn't necessary. Besides, the flat 3-torus we're talking about cannot be embedded in (Euclidean) 3-space. See above for one way to think of a flat 2-torus without any higher-dimensional space; a flat 3-torus is straightforwardly analogous and has been covered in sol invictus's post.

That's actually what I did, being largely ignorant of geometric conventions and terms. I reasoned that a dimension has to be added to a Euclidian plane to make it a space analogous to the universe's space. And then generalized that reasoning to the torus.

I stand corrected. However, I will continue to doubt space is really shaped like a torus. I mean, why would it do that to itself - just to keep from being too big?:confused:

IMO, there are too many people around here doing strange things to space to keep it from being too big. Space with an impenetrable one-sided edge, space shaped like a torus...
 
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I actually strongly disagree with Sean - or at least, I disagree with the way he explains this.

Ok. I think it still helps as a pointer to why some cosmologists aren't concerned about what may look like non-conservation as the universe expands though.
 
Yes, I'm the relativity guy, the one who has read all the Einstein material, including his E=mc² paper. Edd, are you saying energy is not conserved? Seriously?

That sounds like a grudging concession that I'm right, and we don't know that the universe is more than 20 times bigger than the observable universe. Nevermind, let's move on.

It's not enough to just read Einstein you also have to understand him.
 
In post #1016 you said this:

"That's not an assumption. The FLRW model assumptions are that the universe is homogeneous and globally isotropic. If that's assumed, then the only possible flat spatial geometry is that of the (infinite) Euclidean plane".

Farsight, you do know what the word "and" means :eek: ?
What Vorpal said was that given (as in the FLRW model) that
  • The universe is homogeneous and
  • The universe is globally isotropic
then the only possible flat spatial geometry is that of the (infinite) Euclidean plane.
The measurement that the universe has a flat spatial geometry (to 0.4%) implies that it is the geometry of a (possibly infinite) Euclidean plane.
WMAP - Shape of the Universe
The simplest version of the inflationary theory, an extension of the Big Bang theory, predicts that the density of the universe is very close to the critical density, and that the geometry of the universe is flat, like a sheet of paper.
...
Recent measurements (c. 2001) by a number of ground-based and balloon-based experiments, including MAT/TOCO, Boomerang, Maxima, and DASI, have shown that the brightest spots are about 1 degree across. Thus the universe was known to be flat to within about 15% accuracy prior to the WMAP results. WMAP has confirmed this result with very high accuracy and precision. We now know (as of 2013) that the universe is flat with only a 0.4% margin of error. This suggests that the Universe is infinite in extent; however, since the Universe has a finite age, we can only observe a finite volume of the Universe. All we can truly conclude is that the Universe is much larger than the volume we can directly observe
 

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