Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

And extremist libertarianism...

Nope.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Repetition of your unsupported assertions is not a cite.

I have not supplied references. I have supplied descriptions of various types of parent control (homeschooling, retention from school, movement between districts, school choice). I can supply cites for much of the above. Some of it I read in periodicals like Education Week without noting author and date. NCES supplied The data behind the district size statistics and the age of compulsory attendance statistics. Microsoft Excel did the calculations.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

... We know that historically that many poor people, given the chance, would put their children to work rather than educating them.

Why does not on-the-job training qualify as "education"?

... Before you get rid of the public option (state run compulsory) I suggest we have a viable replacement.

We agree. Vouchers, tuition tax credits, subsidized homeschooling via "virtual" State schools, and Parent Performance Contracting would grow the replacements. Policies that restrict parents' options for the use of the taxpayers' K-12 education subsidy to the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's institutions stifle the growth of these options.

 

[A'isha]

Which, in the first place, originated in religious indoctrination and anti-Catholic bigotry.

And, currently, have nothing to do with either. So try again.

Mann's schools were not secular, they were (ostensibly) non-denominational.

They were more secular than the previous explicitly-religious schools. In other words, Mann was, quite deliberately, removing public education from its religious "origins" that you like to go on and on about, and which makes those "origins" thus entirely irrelevant to the modern compulsory public education system that is the actual subject of this interminable discussion.

Mann rode a wave of anti-Catholic bigotry into a position of control over his very own pet bureaucracy.

Again, Mann's reformist program began long before Catholic immigration was ever an issue, and had nothing to do with anti-Catholic bigotry.

I have not supplied references.

Not only have you not supplied references, your "descriptions" evince absolutely zero connection or relevance to your explicit claim that "political control of school harms most the children of the least politically adept parents".

So try again.

 

[RandFan]

Why does not on-the-job training qualify as "education"?

In this case it is the primary education that employers value. Your idea of working to educate people isn't what is valued by the private industry. You could also ask why aren't video games educations?

We agree. Vouchers, tuition tax credits, subsidized homeschooling via "virtual" State schools, and Parent Performance Contracting would grow the replacements. Policies that restrict parents' options for the use of the taxpayers' K-12 education subsidy to the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's institutions stifle the growth of these options.

Vouchers, you mean coupons right? My father never made enough to be able to reduce his taxes sufficiently to pay for school. And many parents could not give a **** if their children are educated. Your replacement had better ensure an option that does not require parents to see that their children be educated. That's the easiest way to ensure that many children fall through the cracks.

Personally I'd like to see more options for parents but I'm not yet convinced that the solution is to toss state run compulsory schools.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

And, currently, have nothing to do with either. So try again.

I rebutted ANT's wildly inaccurate assertion that compulsory schooling originated "in the first place" in response to educational neglect (except for the neglect of religious indoctrination).

Mann's reformist program began long before Catholic immigration was ever an issue, and had nothing to do with anti-Catholic bigotry.

Neither of us was there, but this is false, according to Joel Spring (The American School) and Sol Cohen (Education in the United States, A Documentary History).

Not only have you not supplied references, your "descriptions" evince absolutely zero connection or relevance to your explicit claim that "political control of school harms most the children of the least politically adept parents".

Statutory compulsion, in the forms of restrictions on homeschooling, compulsory attendance statutes, minimum wage laws, child labor laws, large school districts, policies which limit school choice, Statewide teacher credential requirements, etc., shift control over education away from parents to political authorities. Movement in any dimension away from parent control reduces overall system performance.

 

[bruto]

I still would be curious what Malcolm means by the term "politically adept."

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

We know that historically that many poor people, given the chance, would put their children to work rather than educating them.

Why does not on-the-job training qualify as "education"?

In this case it is the primary education that employers value. Your idea of working to educate people isn't what is valued by the private industry. You could also ask why aren't video games educations?

The video game question would be relevant if they existed in 19th century England and the US. We address "historically ...many poor people ... would put their children to work rather than educating them." Why does on-the-job training not qualify as "education"? Thomas Highs and James Hargreaves were either unschooled or minimally schooled. David ("Damn the torpedoes") Farragut joined the US Navy at 9, went to sea at 11, and commanded his first ship at 15. Robert Fitzroy was homeschooled until age 12, attended the Admiralty school for twenty months, and went to sea at 14. Thomas Edison was homeschooled and went to work at 14.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Vouchers, you mean coupons right? My father never made enough to be able to reduce his taxes sufficiently to pay for school....

This is my objection to tuition tax credits, which several Cato analysts prefer over vouchers. A tuition tax credit is of no use to someone who does not pay taxes to his/her State's department of taxation. It looks to me like a ploy to get wealthy people to support school choice through the implicit promise that poor people would not benefit.

 

[RandFan]

The video game question would be relevant if they existed in 19th century England and the US. We address "historically ...many poor people ... would put their children to work rather than educating them." Why does on-the-job training not qualify as "education"? Thomas Highs and James Hargreaves were either unschooled or minimally schooled. David ("Damn the torpedoes") Farragut joined the US Navy at 9, went to sea at 11, and commanded his first ship at 15. Robert Fitzroy was homeschooled until age 12, attended the Admiralty school for twenty months, and went to sea at 14. Thomas Edison was homeschooled and went to work at 14.

Again with the irrelevant anecdotes. George Burns lived to 100 smoking cigars so smoking cigars is a good lifestyle choice. That some people are able to be successful without a primary education does not mean that everyone can or will.

Please stop with the anecdotes. It's not helping your case. Give me statistics based on statistically significant sample size. George Burns is not a statistically significant sample size to make health decisions when it comes to smoking. Likewise Edison, Fitzroy, etc.. They are not a statistically significant sample size. They prove that some people can succeed without education.

As for my question about video games you have not addressed but only dismissed it rhetorically. Video games can be educational but they are not comprehensive education. I've already demonstrated that private employers want high school graduates. That's an empirical fact. There is no evidence that private employers are looking for employees who prefer fast food work or some other menial labor that children and young people typically work. My education on the farm was menial work. What > $50,000 a year job offers employment for a guy raised to feed, care for and kill chickens and rabbits? Oh, I also did lots of other menial chores.

The idea that if we just put poor children to work and that they would be able to get good jobs when they turned 18 has no basis in reality.

 

[A'isha]

I rebutted ANT's wildly inaccurate assertion that compulsory schooling originated "in the first place" in response to educational neglect (except for the neglect of religious indoctrination).

It's not a "rebuttal", because (again) modern compulsory public education is so disconnected and removed from its ostensible origins as to render your constant repetion merely a lame ad hominem: "early European compulsory education was religiously motivated, therefore modern American public schools are bad".

Neither of us was there, but this is false, according to Joel Spring (The American School) anI] Sol Cohen (Education in the United States, A Documentary History).

All you have to do is read Mann's own writing on why he wanted to reform education, and compare the dates of his efforts with the pattern and numbers of Catholic immigration in large numbers. Most of his efforts took place before the easing of emigration restrictions on the Irish, and long before the post-Famine diaspora.

Or, for details on the history of New York City's public school system and the Maclay Act
reforms of the 1840's, see Tyler Anbinder's Five Points.

Statutory compulsion, in the forms of reclaimtions on homeschooling, compulsory attendance statutes, minimum wage laws, child labor laws, large school districts, policies which limit school choice, Statewide teacher credential requirements, etc., shift control over education away from parents to political authorities. Movement in any dimension away from parent control reduces overall system performance.

And how, precisely, does that support your claim?

 

[bruto]

The video game question would be relevant if they existed in 19th century England and the US. We address "historically ...many poor people ... would put their children to work rather than educating them." Why does on-the-job training not qualify as "education"? Thomas Highs and James Hargreaves were either unschooled or minimally schooled. David ("Damn the torpedoes") Farragut joined the US Navy at 9, went to sea at 11, and commanded his first ship at 15. Robert Fitzroy was homeschooled until age 12, attended the Admiralty school for twenty months, and went to sea at 14. Thomas Edison was homeschooled and went to work at 14.

Choosing a few exceptional persons seems a pretty useless way of making a point, especially when two of the five were seamen. On-the-job training to sell newspapers or run a loom is not quite so likely to result in an admiralty as the very privileged and sought-after status of a sea-going scion.

 

[Border Reiver]

The video game question would be relevant if they existed in 19th century England and the US. We address "historically ...many poor people ... would put their children to work rather than educating them." Why does on-the-job training not qualify as "education"? Thomas Highs and James Hargreaves were either unschooled or minimally schooled. David ("Damn the torpedoes") Farragut joined the US Navy at 9, went to sea at 11, and commanded his first ship at 15. Robert Fitzroy was homeschooled until age 12, attended the Admiralty school for twenty months, and went to sea at 14. Thomas Edison was homeschooled and went to work at 14.

And most did not enjoy that level of success. Most young people put to work without at least a basic education were exploited and unsuccessful.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

I rebutted ANT's wildly inaccurate assertion that compulsory schooling originated "in the first place" in response to educational neglect (except for the neglect of religious indoctrination).

It's not a "rebuttal", because (again) modern compulsory public education is so disconnected and removed from its ostensible origins as to render your constant repetion merely a lame ad hominem: "early European compulsory education was religiously motivated, therefore modern American public schools are bad".

Ant wrote...
(ANTPogo): "... we know that huge numbers of children slipped through the cracks under that system...that's why compulsory education was established in the first place, to stop those children from slipping through the cracks."
This is false. Compulsory attendance originated ("in the first place") in religious indoctrination (Reformation Germany, Massachusetts Bay) and anti-Catholic bigotry (1840's US).

 

[A'isha]

Ant wrote...
(ANTPogo): "... we know that huge numbers of children slipped through the cracks under that system...that's why compulsory education was established in the first place, to stop those children from slipping through the cracks."
This is false.

It's true, sorry.

Compulsory attendance originated ("in the first place") in religious indoctrination (Reformation Germany, Massachusetts Bay) and anti-Catholic bigotry (1840's US).

No. Compulsory education was first used in some places because of religious indoctrination, but those implementations are not related to why or when the modern compulsory public education system was established. You know, the same way that the current government of the state of Massachusetts is not related to the establishment of the Puritan government of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. You're doing the equivalent of criticising the actions and existence of the modern Massachusetts government because of how the Puritans governed.

The modern education system had its origins in wanting to ensure that children did not slip through the cracks, to expand education to more than just the elite who could afford private tutoring or private schools, and that's why compulsory education laws were enacted both in the UK and in the various US States starting in the late 19th Century.

And, for your information, the Aztecs instituted compulsory education before the Reformation Europeans did.

 

[Belz...]

And extremist libertarianism, IIRC. Climate denial and the whole package.

That's a lot of bugs, right there. I say format and reinstall is in order.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

It's true, sorry....
No. Compulsory education was first used in some places because of religious indoctrination, but those implementations are not related to why or when the modern compulsory public education system was established.

The current system grew from the earlier system which, "in the first place" originated in religious indoctrination and anti-Catholic bigotry.

You're doing the equivalent of criticising the actions and existence of the modern Massachusetts government because of how the Puritans governed.

I'm disputing a flatly false account of the origin of the current system.

 

[TjW]

Yep. And you evolved from a single celled organism, therefore you are a single-celled organism, and as such, not entitled to an opinion on the education of higher life forms.

 

[A'isha]

The current system grew from the earlier system which, "in the first place" originated in religious indoctrination and anti-Catholic bigotry.

No, the current system did not "grow from" the earlier systems...the German Reformation system and the Puritan colonial system were both long gone by the time Mann started his system, and both of them had nothing whatsoever to do with his desires and objectives in reforming education in the US. And New York City's system was established to remove anti-Catholic bigotry.

 

[Mister Earl]

Malcom, there's two different ways you can handle being shown to be wrong. First, you can learn from it and adapt and improve. Second, you can double down and hope that repeating assertions will somehow alter the spacetime fabric of the universe and that somehow what you want to be true will suddenly spring into being.

I will also note that doubling down in this manner has a solid track record of never working.