Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[FrederickEason]

Garbage in, making the immune system deal with materials it would not have to contend with in nature, and garbage out, ignoring the plethora of debilitating side effects with head scratching "we can't figure out why."


It's insane that vaccines are always shunted aside in any research for a cause.

The vaccine concept is fine. But trying to drive the immune system with materials that are not disease related is madness.

If it looks like mercury or paint chip poisoning as do the symptoms of autism it's the body reacting to some kind of poisoning.

So no evidence then?

 

[Tomtomkent]

So Clayton responded to a post asking if he had evidence linking vaccines to ill effects. Lets dissect his response to identify the evidence he supplies:

Garbage in, making the immune system deal with materials it would not have to contend with in nature,

Not evidence. Infact a further assertion that requires more evidence to support.

and garbage out, ignoring the plethora of debilitating side effects

Still no evidence. A futher assertion.

with head scratching "we can't figure out why."

Still no evidence. An unattributed quote that misrepresents the current accepted understanding. Nobody has said they can't figure out what causes the various conditions Clayton has named. Indeed his complaint seems to be that scientists aren't figuring it out fast enough, which is precisely because they do know how to, the methods take time, and are based on actual evidence.

Sum total so far: 0 Evidence.

It's insane that vaccines are always shunted aside in any research for a cause.

Apparently there is a new definition of "shunted aside" and "insane" I was not aware of. "Shunted aside" apparently means "studied in far more depth than required as resources are wasted trying to replicate faked results on a direction for which absolutely no link of any kind has been found despite numerous studies listed and discussed at length in this very thread," where as "insane" now means "reasonably considered beyond prudence or due dilligence".

The vaccine concept is fine. But trying to drive the immune system with materials that are not disease related is madness.

So wait... Vaccines are fine in principle, except you refuse to accept that very principle?

If it looks like mercury or paint chip poisoning as do the symptoms of autism it's the body reacting to some kind of poisoning.

Yet another assertion. That requires even more evidence. At this point Clayton has produced NEGATIVE evidence by mandating even more to support his claims. Now he has to supply a paper comparing the symptoms of mercury and paint chip poisoning to show they are comparable or indistinguishable from autism.

Is it fair to assume Clayton that by asking you for this evidence I will instead recieve even more assertions that will require ever more evidence?

How exactly did you eliminate television as a cause of Autism? Television has grown in popularity along side vaccines, and have the same correlation with autism. TV is now a worldwide phenomona. It is a commonality between almost all cultures. Are you sure your name sake was not one of the key causes? How is it any less rediculous to claim that vaccines are to blame because people DONT KNOW than it is to claim television was the cause for exactly the same reasons?

 

[abaddon]

At this point Clayton has produced NEGATIVE evidence by mandating even more to support his claims.

I would have said this was utterly impossible, until I found this thread.

 

[Belz...]

Garbage in, making the immune system deal with materials it would not have to contend with in nature, and garbage out, ignoring the plethora of debilitating side effects with head scratching "we can't figure out why."

Or, the alternative: saying that they are harmful without any evidence.

 

[Dcdrac]

so still no evidence Mr Moore only assertion
Did home computers cause a rise in autism they have become common place over the same period, ,mobile phones?

 

[Reality Check]

One in six kids has a developmental disability: Pediatrics; Rise in ADHD, autism diagnoses
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/life-sty...tism-diagnoses-article-1.146210#ixzz2ZH6ruFLO

And what has this to do with your delusion that vaccines are causing autism?
Clayton Moore's 21 statements and 127 133 134 135 136 days of ignorance and delusion!

Clayton Moore: Cite the studies showing the links between the MMR jab and autism.
First asked 4 March 2013 - 136 days and counting!

We know that the rates of autism have been increasing.
We know that this has mainly been caused by the widening of the definition of ASD and the better diagnosis of ASD.We know that the number of antigens in vaccines have been decreasing.
We know that there is no evidence of a link between vaccines and autism.
We know that you remain ignorant or in complete denial of these simple facts.

Why do you want to constantly remind the world of this denial, Clayton Moore?

 

[Reality Check]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-are-asthma-rates-soaring

Breathe deep:

Breathe deep, everyone: Clayton Moore keeps up with his delusions!
Clayton Moore's 21 statements and 127 133 134 135 136 days of ignorance and delusion!

Clayton Moore, Cite your evidence that vaccines cause allergies.
First asked 10 April 2013 - 100 days and counting

 

[Alareth]

I will contend that mercury prevents autism since autism rates have increased since the removal of thimerosal from childhood vaccines.

It's all based on anecdotal evidence without facts so Clayton should agree without question.

 

[Reality Check]

Clayton Moore: Does ASD have the same symptoms as mercury or lead poisoning

Garbage in, making the immune system deal with materials it would not have to contend with in nature, and garbage out, ignoring the plethora of debilitating side effects with head scratching "we can't figure out why."

Yes, Clayton Moore, you are putting garbage in and we can see the garbage that you are getting out .
Clayton Moore's 21 statements and 127 133 134 135 136 days of ignorance and delusion!

Clayton Moore, What is your evidence that any immune system can be "over simulated"?
First asked 10 June 2013 - 29 38 days and counting

And confirming that you cannot even count is not wise, Clayton Moore.
In this case it is the increase in the rate of asthma that "we can't figure out why." That is 1 disease. Count it, Clayton Moore: Zero debilitating disease, 1 debilitating disease.

It is insane that you think that vaccines are always shunted aside in any research for a cause.

It is strange that you are deluded enough to think "trying to drive the immune system with materials that are not disease related is madness"

• The active ingredients of vaccines are antigens, dead viruses and attenuated viruses which are disease related.
• Some vaccines contain adjuvants which increase the disease related immune response.
• It is madness to not vaccinate because that kills people.
• It is madness to not back up your statement with evidence.
• It is madness to ignore the evidence that driving the immune system to fight diseases is beneficial and sane.

If it looks like mercury or paint chip poisoning as do the symptoms of autism it's the body reacting to some kind of poisoning.

Is this another bit of ignorance, i.e. that autism has the same symptoms as mercury or lead poisoning?
Clayton Moore:
What are the symptoms of autism and how do they match the symptoms of mercury or lead poisoning?
First asked 18 July 2013 - 0 days and counting.

And I do not see the mercury in vaccines cause autism delusion in the Clayton Moore's 21 statements and 127 133 134 135 136 days of ignorance and delusion list. So this is actually Clayton Moore's 22nd delusion because mercury is not a cause of autism

This theory hypothesizes that autism is associated with mercury poisoning, based on perceived similarity of symptoms and reports of mercury or its biomarkers in some autistic children.[49] This view has gained little traction in the scientific community as the typical symptoms of mercury toxicity are significantly different than symptoms seen in autism.[50] The principal source of human exposure to organic mercury is via fish consumption and for inorganic mercury is dental amalgams. Other forms of exposure, such as in cosmetics and vaccines, also occur. The evidence so far is indirect for the association between autism and mercury exposure after birth, as no direct test has been reported, and there is no evidence of an association between autism and postnatal exposure to any neurotoxicant.[51] A meta-analysis published in 2007 concluded that there was no link between mercury and autism.[52]

The lead poisoning via vaccines implication is obviously wrong, Clayton Moore. So I will give you a couple of days to clarify it before adding it to the list. Actual lead poisoning has been suggested as a risk factor

Lead poisoning has been suggested as a possible risk factor for autism, as the lead blood levels of autistic children has been reported to be significantly higher than typical.[101] The atypical eating behaviors of autistic children, along with habitual mouthing and pica, make it hard to determine whether increased lead levels are a cause or a consequence of autism.[101]

 

[Clayton Moore]

So Clayton responded to a post asking if he had evidence linking vaccines to ill effects. Lets dissect his response to identify the evidence he supplies:



Not evidence. Infact a further assertion that requires more evidence to support.


Still no evidence. A futher assertion.


Still no evidence. An unattributed quote that misrepresents the current accepted understanding. Nobody has said they can't figure out what causes the various conditions Clayton has named. Indeed his complaint seems to be that scientists aren't figuring it out fast enough, which is precisely because they do know how to, the methods take time, and are based on actual evidence.

Sum total so far: 0 Evidence.



Apparently there is a new definition of "shunted aside" and "insane" I was not aware of. "Shunted aside" apparently means "studied in far more depth than required as resources are wasted trying to replicate faked results on a direction for which absolutely no link of any kind has been found despite numerous studies listed and discussed at length in this very thread," where as "insane" now means "reasonably considered beyond prudence or due dilligence".



So wait... Vaccines are fine in principle, except you refuse to accept that very principle?



Yet another assertion. That requires even more evidence. At this point Clayton has produced NEGATIVE evidence by mandating even more to support his claims. Now he has to supply a paper comparing the symptoms of mercury and paint chip poisoning to show they are comparable or indistinguishable from autism.

Is it fair to assume Clayton that by asking you for this evidence I will instead recieve even more assertions that will require ever more evidence?

How exactly did you eliminate television as a cause of Autism? Television has grown in popularity along side vaccines, and have the same correlation with autism. TV is now a worldwide phenomona. It is a commonality between almost all cultures. Are you sure your name sake was not one of the key causes? How is it any less rediculous to claim that vaccines are to blame because people DONT KNOW than it is to claim television was the cause for exactly the same reasons?

So you're saying the symptoms of mercury poisoning and lead poisoning from paint chips aren't pretty much a mirror image of autism symptoms?

 

[Reality Check]

Clayton Moore: what does "pretty much a mirror image" mean

So you're saying the symptoms of mercury poisoning and lead poisoning from paint chips aren't pretty much a mirror image of autism symptoms?

So he is actually saying is that all we have from you is a fantasy (an assertion without evidence).

You are the one that first asserted that the symptoms of mercury poisoning and lead poisoning from paint chips are "pretty much a mirror image" of autism symptoms.
You are the one that has to provide the evidence to back up your assertions.

Clayton Moore: Start with what does "pretty much a mirror image" mean?

P.S. Clayton Moore, are you aware that mirrors reflect images. So you are actually asserting that mercury poisoning and lead poisoning produce the opposite symptoms to autism !

 

[FrederickEason]

So you're saying the symptoms of mercury poisoning and lead poisoning from paint chips aren't pretty much a mirror image of autism symptoms?

They are entirely different.

Common symptoms of mercury poisoning include peripheral neuropathy (presenting as paresthesia or itching, burning or pain), skin discoloration (pink cheeks, fingertips and toes), swelling, and desquamation (shedding of skin). [...] a person suffering from mercury poisoning may experience profuse sweating, tachycardia (persistently faster-than-normal heart beat), increased salivation, and hypertension (high blood pressure).

Affected children may show red cheeks, nose and lips, loss of hair, teeth, and nails, transient rashes, hypotonia (muscle weakness), and increased sensitivity to light. Other symptoms may include kidney dysfunction (e.g. Fanconi syndrome) or neuropsychiatric symptoms such as emotional lability, memory impairment, and / or insomnia.

Poisoning by organic lead compounds has symptoms predominantly in the central nervous system, such as insomnia, delirium, cognitive deficits, tremor, hallucinations, and convulsions.

Symptoms may be different in adults and children; the main symptoms in adults are headache, abdominal pain, memory loss, kidney failure, male reproductive problems, and weakness, pain, or tingling in the extremities.

Early symptoms of lead poisoning in adults are commonly nonspecific and include depression, loss of appetite, intermittent abdominal pain, nausea, diarrhea, constipation, and muscle pain. Other early signs in adults include malaise, fatigue, decreased libido, and problems with sleep. An unusual taste in the mouth and personality changes are also early signs.

Autism is a highly variable neurodevelopmental disorder that first appears during infancy or childhood, and generally follows a steady course without remission. Overt symptoms gradually begin after the age of six months, become established by age two or three years, and tend to continue through adulthood, although often in more muted form. It is distinguished not by a single symptom, but by a characteristic triad of symptoms: impairments in social interaction; impairments in communication; and restricted interests and repetitive behavior. Other aspects, such as atypical eating, are also common but are not essential for diagnosis. Autism's individual symptoms occur in the general population and appear not to associate highly, without a sharp line separating pathologically severe from common traits.

 

[Dcdrac]

Mr Moore you should read this so you do not make the same mistake saying that lead and mercury poisoning are the same as autism.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/714387

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Autistic-spectrum-disorder/Pages/Symptoms.aspx

 

[crhkrebs]

Intelligent Willfully ignorant people consider that a joke. A grabbing at straws.

Fixed that for you, Clayton.

Then why the difference between ASD rates between boys and girls when the vaccination rates do not show these differences? Why the differences in ASD rates between fraternal and maternal twins? How do the "intelligent" people explain that?

And finally, why do the "intelligent" people, who you seem to speak on behalf of, have such a difficulty in distinguishing between correlation and causation? I thought they were "intelligent"?

Another affliction that has zoomed in victims over the past 30 years. You can thank vaccines for that.

QED

 

[Dcdrac]

Asthma rates have risen as have use of mobile phones and other portable devices in the same period ergo mobile devices such as mobile phones, personal stereos, mp3 players, have caused the increase.

See the problem Mr Moore.....

 

[crhkrebs]

Clayton, so you and the rest of the "intelligent" people are unaware of what single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNP), or what genetic copy number variations (CNV) have to do with ASD? How about chromosomal transpositions? Are you aware of the relation between Fragile X and ASD?

Are you familiar with the SHANK-3 mutation on chromosome 22 and it's direct correlation with ASD and Phelan-McDermid syndrome? Do you know that there are over 30 other known mutations linked to the onset of ASD? Did you know that the correlation is so strong that genetic screening is now being used to predict the incidence of ASD?

My guess is NO.

I guess all genetic research is "grabbing at straws". Self-proclamations, personal anecdotes and YouTube is where the real "evidence" is.

 

[Diogenes]

...

Do you know that there are over 30 other known mutations linked to the onset of ASD?...

I wanted to discuss these when I first entered this thread. Do you have a link handy for the most recent...hopefully review article...that has compiled these. I'll look when I get the lab and add them to my collection. There was a good one from..2010 or 2011...I think it was (don't have my endnote collection at hand). (and only asking if you have it at-hand, not asking you do a search for me...I can do that here in a couple of hours.)

I would be happy to discuss the actual literature. Maybe that would take a new thread, though every paper showing genetic associations is another one that speaks against the vaccine "link".

 

[Clayton Moore]

So he is actually saying is that all we have from you is a fantasy (an assertion without evidence).

You are the one that first asserted that the symptoms of mercury poisoning and lead poisoning from paint chips are "pretty much a mirror image" of autism symptoms.
You are the one that has to provide the evidence to back up your assertions.

Clayton Moore: Start with what does "pretty much a mirror image" mean?

P.S. Clayton Moore, are you aware that mirrors reflect images. So you are actually asserting that mercury poisoning and lead poisoning produce the opposite symptoms to autism !

You have to have a smidgen of basic common knowledge to discuss this.

Related to MIRROR IMAGE

Synonyms
alter ego, carbon, carbon copy, clone, counterpart, doppelgänger (or doppelganger), double, duplicate, duplication, facsimile, fetch, likeness, look-alike, match, image, picture, replica, ringer, spit, spitting image, twin

 

[Dcdrac]

Mr Moore Autism and mercury/lead poisoning are not mirror images of each other.

You are mistaken,

 

[Dcdrac]

so Mr Moore what is the causal link between Autism, Asthma and Mobile hand held devices?