General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Dcdrac said:
and your hard evidence for your assertions Mr Moore you have I take it read the primary and secondary documentation personally ?
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The hard evidence is the avoidance of my posts that have addressed the big picture fabrications of the Holocaust. Quite a voluminous amount of examples of adroit tap dancing.

If anyone wants the truth about the Holocaust fabrications they can do an advanced search of this thread by user Clayton Moore.


Bottom line. I understand the enormity of what the Holocaust enforcers say happened pretty much as smooth as silk during the largest war in the history of the world. And it was impossible. That's why it was so smoothly executed, it wasn't.


For many years, into the 1980s, the Holocaust enforcers were insisting the horrors and gas chambers were a well kept secret. As in even the German senior officers in non SS commands had no idea. Neither, it was said, did the Polish neighbors of the alleged death camps have a clue. Nor the German population. Nor the Allies. Nor the Red Cross. Even the camp resident were said not to know.

The Holocaust enforcers had convinced the World that the losers of the war were even more evil than anyone knew.

The Holocaust enforcers came upon a master stroke they decided to link the German senior officers in non SS commands, the Polish neighbors of the alleged death camps, the German population, the Allies, the Red Cross, even the Catholic Church and many world leaders knew and therefore complicit. The Holocaust fabrication has changed 180°. From the best kept secret ever, to every one knew and said or didn't do anything because they hated Jewish people.
 
EtienneSC said:
Revisionism in Germany may be largely confined to the far right. This is less so in other countries, though it is still a factor. It illustrates how politicised this area is, which naturally causes suspicion as to whether partisan motives are at work. One might argue that delegitimation of the European radical right is one motive behind holocaust scholarship, or at least behind wide popular acceptance of its conclusions.

Many people other than (academic) historians write about history and many holocaust scholars work in other departments. At the end of the day, everyone has limits to their competences, motives, etc and we all have to look coldly at the facts as best one can.
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In your country Nick Kollerstrom had his honorary fellowship revoked after he wrote a revisionist article on the holocaust. http://codoh.com/library/document/684 No other academics spoke out in his favor even on the grounds of freedom of speech. The holocaust is a religion which does not allow heretics.
 
mr Moore you hAve no provided no evidence at all so you ahve not read the pramry sources nor the secondary ones persoanlly?

have you ever been to Wanasee? I have.

Mondial Codoh is not an unbiased source for anything to do with the Holocaust.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
For many years, into the 1980s, the Holocaust enforcers were insisting the horrors and gas chambers were a well kept secret. As in even the German senior officers in non SS commands had no idea. Neither, it was said, did the Polish neighbors of the alleged death camps have a clue. Nor the German population. Nor the Allies. Nor the Red Cross. Even the camp resident were said not to know.
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Cite, please?
 
Dr Nick Terry has consitantly provided hard evidence and has read the primary source material, can you say the same Mr Moore?
 
westerbw.jpg



Celebrating a Jewish wedding in Westerbork 'Konzentrationslager' Camp, Holland.
 
Ms

Here are some undeathcamp like Auschwitz facts I've gleaned. Plus some questions. All in my own words.

Inmates got married at Auschwitz.
3,000 live births were recorded at the maternity hospital.
Who watched the kids?.

Auschwitz inmates built a swimming-pool in the camp with a diving board and 'starters' blocks for races.

Auschwitz inmates sunbathed next to it on weekends as they watched water-polo matches.

Paintings from Auschwitz art classes still exist.

An Auschwitz camp library for inmates had about forty-five thousand volumes and periodicals for inmates to select from.

Auschwitz inmates were paid for their work and services and special money was printed for them to use.


For extra work Auschwitz inmates could earn coupons for cake or ice cream in the Camp Cantina.

Six camp orchestras at Auschwitz/Birkenau. One orchestra had about 100-120 musicians.

Theatrical performances were held at the Auschwitz centre.

A rather saucy review was held at Auschwitz on Saturdays.

The last pictures taken inside the centre had pianos, costumes and a stage where the inmates put on productions.

Birkenau at Auschwitz had a own soccer field, The SS staff and camp inmates had weekly games. The soccer field was next to the alleged gas chambers. And they played soccer there? Must have been a secret.


There was a central sauna at Auschwitz.

A fencing class at Auschwitz.

Cultural and non-political films were shown weekly at the Auschwitz camp cinema.

Legal advice was available to Auschwitz inmates, pertaining to any non-natural deaths.

The SS were not allowed to hit Auschwitz prisoners.

It was a standing order that any inmate could approach Hoess personally to register a complaint.

About 4,800 sick Auschwitz prisoners were under medical care.

There was a dental unit for Auschwitz inmates

The Auschwitz surgical unit was very modern.(Elie Wiesel told of his operation there in his Night essay) Expert surgeons were sent from the famous Berlin "Charité" surgical clinic to it for difficult cases.

Special "dietetic cooking" meals for some of the sick were prepared by the Auschwitz cook-houses.


Visitors were free to go and come at the Auschwitz camps. Wives visited their husbands at Auschwitz.

In 1943 a camp brothel was established just inside the Auschwitz main gate, on orders from Himmler, as a reward for privileged prisoners.

Female guards were used in the Auschwitz women's sections.
 
A Smidgon of Holocaust Truth

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/Auschwitz/Bernhard_070707.html


While all this was going on, my mother was left to her own devices in a strange country, losing a terrible war and six months pregnant. She joined a group of about 25 women all fleeing west, in that group were about six or seven Nuns. In late December 1944 one freezing afternoon, the women came into a small township in which were what she describes to this day as , 'many Factory Buildings' which was the Auschwitz camp. The Nuns asked the SS Guards if it were possible to spend a night or so there. They were warmly welcomed by the guards.
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Her words, from memory:
"It was very cold, snowing and getting dark at 4 O'clock in the later afternoon.The Nuns approached the SS Guards and were very pleased to say we could all be sure of a warm and dry place to sleep. But we were told we could not stay long, we had to move on after a short time (2 or 3 days I suspect). I remember it was close to Christmas and there were some decorations, we slept on a wooden floor and it must have been near a bakery, because I remember the sweet smell of Bread. I swapped a Vienna Loaf for a pair of fine leather shoes with someone."

I asked her about the SS Guards:

"They were 'alte Herren' old gentlemen, some quite old and extremely pleased to see the nuns. We were invited to dine with them at a large table, we were very well treated but one thing on which they were firm was we would not be permitted to stay there, we had to move on'.
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I asked her if there was anything she saw which might suggest millions of people had died there in Gas Chambers. At this, she says something incomprehensible in Russian or Ukrainian and spits on the floor, her facial expression now serious, she looks me in the eye and says:

"Look, I was there, 25 of us were there, women talk. In our group there was a Doctor, there was a Chemist, the Nuns were Teachers, I was a Teacher and let me tell you if there had been anything suspicious there we would have known. If there had been millions killed the entire communities around this region would have known and would have talked about it to us. Remember rumours were everywhere, there was no TV and by then no Newspaper where ever we went locals would ask us about the where the Russians were or if the fighting was coming closer"

"The fact is none of us saw anything, heard anything or even suspected anything unusual about Auschwitz. The suggestion that the tired but extremely well mannered OLD gentlemen of the SS who treated us so decently, murdered millions of people in Gas Chambers is an outrageous, monstrous lie"
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Mondial said:
An article which should be of interest to skeptics - "The Holocaust as Sacred Cow" - http://codoh.com/library/document/2041
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The insistence of 34 French historians that the mass murder of Jews in gas chambers was technically possible because "it took place" is reminiscent of the argument of Joseph Glanvill in Soducismus Triumphatus (1681): "Matters of fact well proved ought not to be denied, because we cannot conceive how they can be performed. Nor is it a reasonable method of inference, first to presume the thing impossible, and thence to conclude that the fact cannot be proved." What were the "matters of fact well proved" that Glanvill thought should not be denied? They were the well proved "facts" of existence of witches and witchcraft. It should be pointed out, however, that, unlike those who denied the existence of witches and witchcraft because, as Glanvill said, they "presumed" it to be impossible, Robert Faurisson does not simply presume the Nazi gas chambers to have been impossible. Rather, he presents arguments based on allegedly factual information about the properties of Zyklon B, the gas allegedly used for mass murder at Auschwitz. For example, in "The Gas Chambers of Auschwitz Appear to be Physically Inconceivable," (The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1981), Faurisson writes that, "This gas is inflammable and explosive; there must not be any naked flame in the vicinity and, most definitely, it is necessary not to smoke." He then cites the testimony of Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess that immediately after opening the door of a gas chamber, following the gassing, prisoners would begin to remove the corpses, smoking and eating as they worked. Faurisson asks:

How could they smoke in a place with vapors from an inflammable and explosive gas? How could all of that be done near the doors of the crematory ovens in which they were burning thousands of bodies? The gas chambers were allegedly housed in the same buildings as the crematory ovens. Who are these beings endowed with supernatural powers? From what world do these tremendous creatures come? Do they belong to our world which is ruled by inflexible, known laws of the physicist, the doctor, the chemist, the toxicologist? Or do they indeed belong to the world of the imagination where all those laws, even the law of gravity, are overcome by magic or disappear by enchantment?

Assuming that Faurisson is right about the inflammability and explosiveness of Zyklon B, he has raised some pertinent (and impertinent) questions about the physical possibility of the notorious Nazi gas chambers, questions which deserve to be answered by those who maintain that those gas chambers really existed. But, rather than answer Faurisson's questions, 34 French historians dogmatically insist that the alleged mass murder with Zyklon B was possible because "it took place." Such dogmatism regarding the gas chambers is the intellectual equivalent of the dogmatism of Catholic historians who insist that it was possible for the sun to plunge toward the earth above Fatima because "it took place," as attested by thousands of eyewitnesses. As some People believe in the Holy Ghost, others believe in the Holocaust.
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I think the Holocaust believers are beat on this one.
 
Loss Leader said:
Just grabbed this lie at random. It has been thoroughly debunked.
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Friday, January 15, 2010
The dumbest Holocaust denial icon: the Auschwitz swimming pool
I mean, Jon Harrison dealt with it, Pressac dealt with it, van Pelt dealt with it:

Given the dichotomy between the very complex nature and history of Auschwitz and the habit of many to consider the camp only as a "top-secret mass extermination center," many people, including bona-fide historians, survivors, and not so bona-fide holocaust deniers, often commit the fallacy of composition: they reason from the properties of the part of Auschwitz that was engaged with mass extermination to the properties of Auschwitz as a whole. A favourite example of the negationists is the so-called swimming pool in Auschwitz I. They argue that the presence of a swimming pool, with three diving boards, shows that the camp was really a rather benign place, and therefore could not have been a center of extermination. They ignore that the swimming pool was built as a water reservoir for the purpose of firefighting (there were no hydrants in the camp), that the diving boards were added later, and that the pool was only accessible to SS men and certain privileged Aryan prisoners employed as inmate-funcionaries in the camp. The presence of the swimming pool does not say anything about the conditions for Jewish inmates in Auschwitz, and does not challenge the existence of an extermination program with its proper facilities in Auschwitz II.
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Just grabbed this first debunker at random.


I mean, Jon Harrison dealt with it

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/05/faurisson-and-swimming-pool-at.html

Just grabbed this first debunker at random.

Sunday, May 18, 2008
Faurisson and the Swimming Pool at Auschwitz I
In 2001, Faurisson published this article about the swimming pool at Auschwitz I. He claimed that "The pool was a pool. It was meant for the detainees." However, the solitary direct eyewitness that Faurisson quoted in the original article stated that, "It should be noted that only the very fit and well-fed, exempt from the harsh jobs, could indulge in these games..."

This is therefore a direct distortion by Faurisson, contradicted by his own witness. The pool was only meant for a small minority of detainees: the administrative workers in Auschwitz I. We do not know from the extract that any of these were Jews. The workers at Buna (Auschwitz III) and those selected for Birkenau never went near it; nor did those on starvation rations, nor those doing heavy labour. Yet, as was surely Faurisson's intention, deniers have swallowed this evidence as if it related to the whole of Auschwitz. Both astro3 [Kollerstrom] and 'Hannover' [Hargis] do precisely that here. Readers can decide for themselves whether this misreading was done through mendacity or sheer stupidity. With Hargis and Kollerstrom, either answer would be plausible.

Furthermore, in an addendum on the same link, Faurisson quoted a later witness account, written in 1997, stating that "a newsreel director had some deportees filmed swimming there." An honest scholar might conclude that this indicated the true propaganda purpose of the pool, but Faurisson is a dishonest scholar and chooses to call the witness a liar, except in the small part where his testimony supports Faurisson's claim.
Posted by Jonathan Harrison at 4:15 pm


So He said the pool was pool. He didn't say it was a water reservoir for the purpose of firefighting
Auschwitz inmates built a swimming-pool in the camp with a diving board and 'starters' blocks for races.

Auschwitz inmates sunbathed next to it on weekends as they watched water-polo matches.
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Water polo is a difficult and arduous sport. Few people, anywhere would be fit enough play let alone compete.
 
Clayton Moore said:
[qimg]http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/images/westerbw.jpg[/qimg]

Celebrating a Jewish wedding in Westerbork 'Konzentrationslager' Camp, Holland.
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Here is the same photo on the website of the Jewish Virtual Library.

HereIs another page with a photo of a couple on their wedding day in Westerbork on the website of Joods Monument.

Here is a photo taken during the wedding ceremony of another couple on the Yad Vashem website.

Hereis a list of people exempt from camp duties so they could attend a wedding in Westerbork from a Dutch website providing central access to various archives, a.o. Centraal Vluchtelingenkamp Westerbork - Drents Archief.

Here is a scan of a personal registration card on which a Westerbork marriage is registered.
Bestuursarchief gemeente Westerbork ( Gemeente Midden-Drenthe )

Now what?

P.S.
I'm not aware of divorce photographs but you could request a record of a divorce registered by the clerks under whose jurisdiction the Westerbork camp fell during the nazi occupation of the The Netherlands. Interested?
 
Bluespaceoddity said:
Now what?
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Now somebody explains why weddings in a work camp and the attempted extermination of a race are mutually exclusive.

Oh, wait. They're not.

It was a huge war that took place over years across all of Europe. Lots of things happened at lots of different times.
 
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